Plastic Classic Forum

Yesterday, I circumnavigated the SF Bay again in a counter clockwise direction starting from the Oakland estruary, ducking behind Treasurer Island, shooting across the "slot", motoring through the Racoon Strait (between Sausalito and Angel Island), back across the "slot" parallel to the Golden Gate bridge, then falling off in front of the city waterfront, passing under the Bay Bridge, and finally back to the estuary. For those who sail on SF Bay it is a well known fact that the average wind speed in a summer afternoon is 15-25 knots gusting 30 to 35 knots. Yesterday, was a prototypical summer day on the Bay. I wanted to test the Triton helm balance under a working jib alone vs. a combinaiton of a double reefed main and a working jib.

On the way to Sausalito I sailed with only the working jib on a beam reach. I was amazed how well the boat balanced in approximately 20-25 knots wind. My knotmeter was not working but I estimate the hull speed over water is approximatley 5/6 knots. The helm exhibited a hint of leehelm but very managable. The heeling angle was less than 15 degrees. In comparison, when I watched other boats going by that carried either full mains or reefed mains, they were either luffing the mains or heeled over with rail under water. In either case they were going no faster than my Triton under the jib alone.

On the way back from Sausolito I raised the main with two reefs, also on a beam reach. This time I did not have a good time. I was beat up pretty badly and this time the lee rail was under water and I had to wrestle the wind for control of the boat. I have discussed the Triton weather helm issue on this forum a couple of times before. I acknowledge that my main sail is old (at least 15 years if not more) and is not sheeted as flat as I would like. That may have contributed to the excess weather helm. However, my experience from the two sail configurations which I tried yesterday demonstrates that in any wind speed over 20 to 25 knots Tritons sail much better under the jib along.

I have added a third reef to my main which I have not tried yet. I plan to do that on the next trip and I will report back how the helm balances under a combination of a triple reefed main and a jib in similar wind conditions.

Have you also tried sailing with just the double reefed main by itself? Or is there too much weather helm with that choice?

Interesting observations. I sailed a similar course the day before you did. Circumnavigated Angel Island counter clockwise starting in Sausalito. The strongest wind I encountered was a couple of 25 knot gusts off Pt Blunt but a solid 15 to 20 the whole way (thanks to my new tacktick instruments). I was flying a full main and 100% jib all the way. Had the traveler down and main as flat as I could get it. (sails are a only a couple years old so they still have the ability to be flattened out) and had to luff the main in the gusts. Hit 8.5 knots on several occasions. Finger tip weather helm pressure on the tiller. Hope to cross paths with you out there. I saw five Tritons in one day last year. Saturday I saw three. Here's one of the 3. http://www.youtube.com/user/mccartyj1#p/u/6/EmD5AnmFvmE "Answer" belongs to my friend Dave. He keeps her in Alameda and lives aboard. You have probably seen her out there.
Cheers!

One question about the main:

How hard was it sheeted in? I sail FIZZ, a Sea Sprite 23 which is an Alberg design, very similar lines to the Triton but smaller... FIZZ does much better when the mainsheet is let out a bit. Sheeting the main in hard caused FIZZ to heel over hard and go slower, even if going upwind.

If you do sheet in the main hard, try letting the mainsheet out until the end of the boom is just outboard of the boat. See what happens. There is a common tendency to sheet in mains hard when going upwind. I was guilty of this before until I loosed the mainsheet. I remember the moment of deciding to sail upwind with a looser mainsheet... decided to give up some pointing ability in favor of more speed and less heel. Well, I found out I did not lose pointing ability! Mind you, this is just for FIZZ, it may be different for other sailboats, including yours.

- Case

Bluenose wrote:Have you also tried sailing with just the double reefed main by itself? Or is there too much weather helm with that choice?

Bill, I have not sailed with only double reefed main. My friend Rob asked the same question as he thinks it should provide better helm balance. The only thing I am concerned is that it will result in too much weatherhelm. I will try that next time.

Case, Seasprite 23 are beautiful boats, great choice. I was on beam reach on Sunday so the boom is sheeted closer to the rubrail although it appears to be outboard of the rubrail due to the steep heeling angle.

Jim, hope to run into you and Aweigh on the Bay. I have run into Dave Wilson in the Oakland estuary and Svendsens of course (since he works there). You have some of the most beautiful shots of Aweigh and the Golden Gate Bridge. I guess having a new main and about 5 to 10 knots wind speed makes all the difference.

Triton106 wrote:

Bluenose wrote:Have you also tried sailing with just the double reefed main by itself? Or is there too much weather helm with that choice?

Bill, I have not sailed with only double reefed main. My friend Rob asked the same question as he thinks it should provide better helm balance. The only thing I am concerned is that it will result in too much weatherhelm. I will try that next time.

Thanks. I would enjoy hearing your experiences. I am in the process of setting up Bolero's second reef and have thought about what happens if I need even less sail than the working jib and a double reefed main.

I don't have the reliable testing environment that San Fransisco Bay provides but as soon as I can I am planning to sail with our minimum sail plan.

I guess having a new main and about 5 to 10 knots wind speed makes all the difference.

Ray,
Yep. A new main sail made all the difference. I'm able to carry more sail in higher wind with less healing and weather helm and higher pointing ability. It's like a sailing a different boat. I put a reef in much less frequently than I used to and rarely double reef.

It's amazing that the summer is 2/3 over and I have only sailed once up to today... Every weekend has been preoccupied by my kids' swim meets. Out here in Contra Costa County just east of San Francisco the folks are fanatical about swimming, much like how folks in Texas think about football. It's a way of life.

Today, I took adavantage of a lull in the swim schedule and drafted my daughter to go sailing with me. Next weekend is the big Contra Costa County Swim Meet and the weekend after that is our scheduled family vacation. So, it's now or not until after the school starts.

Before setting out we rigged the boat with a triple reef in the main to see how the helm balances with a triple reefed main and a working jib. The wind speed was 15-20 gusting to 25-30 in the slot area. Blossom balanced beautifully. There is ever a slight hint of leehelm but hardly noticable. As matter of fact even my daughter who is 11 years old could easy manage the boat. I finally find the right sail combination for the summer condition here in the SF Bay Area.

I thought I would add another tid bit of follow up on this topic.

On the Fourth of July I went out in about 20+ knots of wind in the slot area of SF Bay. I had a double reef in the main that I borrowed from my friend Rob. As par for the course of summer sailing on the Bay rail was under and white caps everywhere. The amazing thing is that the helm was well balanced! How could it be? With my old baggy sail (currently being cleaned and repaired by Sailcare) the weatherhelm would have been tremendous. The only thing I could think of that explain it is that a flat main makes all the difference.

Wow, that means I don't have to move my mast, shorten the boom, or add a bowsprit??? We will see how my main behaves after I get it back from Sailcare.

Triton106 wrote: The only thing I could think of that explain it is that a flat main makes all the difference.
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Flat sails reduce healing forces and weather helm significantly. Full sails are great for light winds. This does not mean a blown out sail is good for light winds as the shape will likely be wrong. Eventually a sail is good for nothing, and even recutting can't make up for deterioration of the cloth. Hopefully sail care does right by you and only reworks when the sail is worth the effort and cost.

Thanks Dave, I spoke with Jerry at Sail Care and according to him the reason my main is so baggied out of shape is because the nylon boltrope has shrunk relative to the luff cloth. He rated my sail condition 7 (out of 10). Hope he is right because I am spending about $600 to clean and repair it.