Why sail when motors are so much fun?

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:02 pm

My A4 hates me. Which is fine, really, because I enthusiastically reciprocate its feelings. I don't why we got off to such a bad start, but our relationship deteriorated to the point today where I actually threatened to kill it. Recent events caused an Islander 36 to occupy my slip, as many of you know and, as inanimate objects go, the Islander is pretty malicious too. So, I moved the Triton to a recently vacated slip a few down from mine. When I went to start my motor, though, it refused to fire up. I ended up walking the boat along the pilings and into her new slip.

I went back last week to try and coax the A4 into running. I tried everything in my arsenal of mechanical knowledge. I checked the gas (good) and the batteries (we had radio and blower, good) and tried again. No go. After hitting the motor with no success I realized this would be more involved than my usual harangue. A few drinks later, the problem (or really the primary symptom) was diagnosed - no spark.

I called Moyer Marine and ordered new plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, rotor, condenser, and points, plus a manual to try and figure it all out. I went out this afternoon and tried to put it all together. I gathered my new parts and climbed over two boats and under one to arrive at the Triton.

First, I removed the engine hatch covers to allow fantastic access to a full one eighth of the wrong side of the engine. I then switched the batteries to off, disconnected the negative terminals, gapped the plugs, and replaced the parts. I then reconnected the batteries, turned them on, and went, full of confidence in my manly mechanical prowess, to turn the motor over. The batteries were dead.

This is what I mean when I say the A4 hates me - and I hate it.

There is no power at the marina so I pulled both batteries out, lugged them under one boat and over two, and drove home defeated for the day. I'll be back tomorrow with fully charged batteries for a rematch.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:12 am

A4s are great engines.

As long as you want to spend lots of time tinkering and fussing over its overindulgent needs.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:53 am

The trick, I think, is to shower the Atomic four with attention before it asks for it. Think of it like when you start dating someone new. Spontaneous shows of affection go a long way. After the relationship is established you can pretty much forget the other exists...

-Britton

Post by **CapnK** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:08 am

Jason -

To really threaten it, you need to broaden your knowledge base in order to scare it effectively with something, some action, some fate that it would truly regret. Like becoming a mooring. Look here:

Oar Club

:D

FloatingMoneyPit · Post by **FloatingMoneyPit** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:20 pm

Jason, man do I feel your pain. Almost every weekend this summer I've gone to my boat, tried to fire up the A4, found a problem. Tinkered for 30 minutes, went home defeated and PO'd that I'm stuck in a marina where sailing out of my slip is not really an option. Go home, check the manuals, check Moyer online, have a few "eureka!" moments and swear I've identified the problem. Go to the boat some night after work to solve said problem. Said problem persists, or a new one pops up.

Better yet, cure said problem, A4 runs like a champ for an hour to charge batteries while I contemplate the coming weekend's cruise. Go home psyched. Go to boat on Friday, find A4 is mad at me again and another sailing weekend is ruined.

It does run like a dream when feels like running. Maybe someday I'll get it all figured out and have one of those legendary seasons with nothing between launch & haul but a visit to the fuel dock.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:46 pm

It does run like a dream when feels like running. Maybe someday I'll get it all figured out and have one of those legendary seasons with nothing between launch & haul but a visit to the fuel dock.

Ah, I have the same dream.

But those Yanmars cost about $8000.

:)

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:43 pm

Throw a thousand $ at an A4 and she will purr like a kitten too.

This spring, as some may recall, I took a big hammer to my galley and icebox and carved a nice big space around my Atomic 4. I rebuilt the carburetor, replaced the fuel pump with a bulkhead mounted electrical pump, added a real fuel filter and an oil pressure cutoff switch going to the fuel pump. On the electrical side, I tore out all the wires and rewired the engine (not so difficult when you realize that only about six wires are needed - the rest are probably added by an incompetent PO) replaced the points with an electronic ignition unit, new plug wires and plugs, new battery and battery cables, new ignition switch (the boat didn't come with a key...). Just for giggles I replaced all the coolant hoses so I would know how old they were and just because they looked ugly. I replaced the water pump impellers (2 in my case), and greased the oberdorfer pump (the other doesn't need grease but I took it apart to snoop around anyway).

This isn't heavy maintenance. This is just parts changing. I think total cost was probably shy of $500. For that work I got 80 hours of operation without a hiccup (okay the raw water strainer kept clogging but that is hardly the engine's fault) and I expect to have more of the same when I re-commision the boat.

This is only my personal opinion here and it is based on limited experience but I think a reasonable amount of preventative maintenance after the engine has been brought to a good working condition will keep these motors going for a long time. The problem may be that so many A4's are ignored for so long and then the maintenance performed is more of the 'band-aid' variety, designed to fix symptons rather than atone for years of poor maintenance.

Now diesels are great and will continue to operate with really shameful levels of maintenance but that doesn't make the A4 a maintenance hog. I still say a reasonable amount of maintenance will keep these things going for a long time.

Spend some time, get to know your beast, remember, it has been undoubtedly mistreated for years. Given some time I think it will learn to love you like only an engine can.

Just my 2 cents... or maybe 4.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:53 pm

bcooke wrote: I think a reasonable amount of preventative maintenance after the engine has been brought to a good working condition will keep these motors going for a long time. The problem may be that so many A4's are ignored for so long and then the maintenance performed is more of the 'band-aid' variety, designed to fix symptons rather than atone for years of poor maintenance.

Now diesels are great and will continue to operate with really shameful levels of maintenance but that doesn't make the A4 a maintenance hog. I still say a reasonable amount of maintenance will keep these things going for a long time.

All true, and well said.

Taking care of your engine should be second nature and part of a near-daily routine, whether you have gas or diesel. Love your engine, and she will love you back.

It's worth noting that many of the A4's problems stem from their old-fashioned ignition system and carbureted fuel system. Upgrading to electronic ignition seems to work wonders with these beasts.

But it's way more fun to just try and stir up the A4 vs. diesel debate once again!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:20 pm

I believe there is an unwritten law of physics that states:

1. An A4 will perform flawlessly at all times when it is not really needed.
2. When it is actually needed it will refuse to start.

:)

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:32 pm

Throw a thousand $ at an A4 and she will purr like a kitten too.

It's not really the money, though I have been and will spend an astounding amount on my beloved sailboat in the next month. I'm just not that mechanically inclined when it comes to these old motors. I know the basics, but its not intuitive and I get frustrated far more easily than I do with all of the other onboard systems and projects. I'm also not normally this remiss in maintenance, but with all of the project work that I've done since late February, the A4 has had little (OK, no) attention.

I went back out there with a partially charged battery yesterday and left without getting her to turn over. I'll be back Saturday morning. I'm going to replace the coil.

Does anyone know how to change the points on an early A4? I haven't seen any detailed instructions and, when I popped the distributor cap off, I wasn't sure I would be able to replace the points precisely as they were. And don't say switch to an electronic ignition either. I'll do that later; right now, I just want the thing to run.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:52 pm

Jason, did the Moyer manual that you ordered arrive yet? There is a pretty good walk-through on page 3-2. The hardest part I think will be measuring the point gap within the tight confines of the Triton galley/engine box.

I have to bite my tongue because you already mentioned electronic ignition.

You DO have a Bomar hatch in the cockpit don't you? Not only does it give access to the shaft seal, it also is another entry point to the distributor and water pump. I don't think you can adjust the points any better but adjusting the distributor timing becomes quite easy.

But it's way more fun to just try and stir up the A4 vs. diesel debate once again!

Yes, and once again I think I am probably going to find myself in the minority.

1. An A4 will perform flawlessly at all times when it is not really needed.
2. When it is actually needed it will refuse to start.

Yep! I am King of the minority faction. That is okay. I can go faster and do it quieter than any diesel installation short of a Catapillar. How's that for stirring up the A4 debate!

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:04 pm

bcooke wrote:I can go faster and do it quieter than any diesel installation short of a Catapillar. How's that for stirring up the A4 debate!

Hmmm... I don't seem to recall you passing me very often... In fact, it seems that I had to spend most of the trip throttled back from normal cruising speed so's you and Tim could keep up!

;-P

Post by **Tim** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:05 pm

Fine. Be that way. I'll just put one of these in, then.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:48 pm

Hey CapnK- Aren't cha glad we have outboards??

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:57 pm

My A4 gives me 5.5 knots at half throttle.

Replacing the points is simply an exercise in taking things out and putting them back as they were. Have a good look before you pull the old unit and draw yourself a diagram so you can remember where the little isolating shims go.

Do yourself a huge favor and arrange a white cloth around the base of the distributor before you start. I have yet to attempt this evolution without dropping one or more of those teensy tiny little parts, and an old tshirt goes a long way to minimizing the resultant where-the-F-did-that-one-land frustration.

Setting the points on an A4 isn't really an exercise in precision like it can be with some other engines. She'll fire with them set almost any old way, in my experience. It's more of a fine-tuning thing.

1st things 1st: Have a set of ignition wrenches? if not, get one. A cheapo stamped-out-of-sheetmetal set will do fine. Otherwise you're monkeying around with needlenose pliers and doing more swearing than anything else.

If you have a crank so you can turn the engine by hand, great. If not, then jumping the starter a little bit at a time is just a more tedious means to the same end: Turn the engine until a lobe on the distributor shaft pushes the points arm out to its max distance.

I stopped bothering with actual feeler guages long ago. A matchbook cover or any other piece of decent card stock paper is an adequate guage.

Crack open the locknut, and turn the adjustable side of the points until you can just start to feel it grab onto the matchbook you've been sliding between the two points all the while. Then back it off a quarter turn.

Reset the locknut, and then recheck the gap with the feeler guage to ensure that you didn't close the setting when tightening the locknut.

After typing all of that, though, I kinda doubt that the points are your problem. I go through coils and condensors a lot faster than points.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:31 pm

Hmmm... I don't seem to recall you passing me very often... In fact, it seems that I had to spend most of the trip throttled back from normal cruising speed so's you and Tim could keep up!

I was being polite.

Really though, I get about 5.5kts over the ground speed (factoring out the current) at about half throttle too. Going full throttle (with suspect ignition timing and a weak #1 cylinder) I get 6.2-6.3kts. Interesting that Figment seems to hit the same speeds. I would have thought my 3 bladed Indigo prop would give me a little advantage. Then again when you hit hull speed you hit hull speed and nothing short of a turbine is going to make you go faster.

I propose that the next NETA rendevous include a powered race. maybe a short drag race to test acceleration, all of us lined up side by side with no way on for say a quarter or half a mile. For those slow-to-starters we could run a longer course between anchorages to make them feel better. That would be something not every boat club offers...

Fine. Be that way. I'll just put one of these in, then.

And you know Tim, you are just the guy to do it! The fact that you had a photo so close at hand makes me wonder if we stumbled on one of your secret plans for Glissando. You do seem to catch an awful lot of grief about her 'built for comfort not for speed' build concept and it wouldn't surprise me if you were holding a secret weapon up your sleeve... just waiting for someone to innocently propose a drag race at the next rendevous. I know how your evil mind works :-)

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:03 am

With the new prop I do 5.5-5.6 at about 2300-2400, 6.1 at 2800. During the cruise I found that I had to run at about 24-2500 when we were all powering together to stay at the same speed.

Suffice it to say, I have no problem doing hull speed with the Yanmar?it certainly has plenty of power. The A4 is quieter, but man! that jacketed exhaust sure makes a racket of its own!

Post by **Tim** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:49 am

bcooke wrote:I propose that the next NETA rendevous include a powered race. maybe a short drag race to test acceleration,

That's fine, and I'd no doubt lose in the ultimate test, since my boat weighs way more than yours, or Nathans, or any other Triton I've run across. Oh well. Come on over for iced cocktails, mellow stinky cheese, and good food...if you can stand to wait around for that interminable 5-10 minutes until I sputter in going so dreadfully slowly.

bcooke wrote:You do seem to catch an awful lot of grief about her 'built for comfort not for speed' build concept and it wouldn't surprise me if you were holding a secret weapon up your sleeve.

The secret weapon is no secret. It's the "comfort" part of that equation. If I wanted speed I'd buy a J-boat.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:10 am

Tim wrote:That's fine, and I'd no doubt lose in the ultimate test, since my boat weighs way more than yours, or Nathans, or any other Triton I've run across.

Excepting of course your Daysailor! You seem to have forgotten you own two, Tim. :)

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:13 am

Tim wrote:Come on over for iced cocktails, mellow stinky cheese, and good food...if you can stand to wait around for that interminable 5-10 minutes until I sputter in going so dreadfully slowly.

No, I think that's just about perfect. Gives me time to put the sail cover on and neaten up first! hehe