So you want to paint .......

[Desertmariner]

My Quick study is with guy Dannny who has been in the business for 20 years...... He comes into our boat restoration process and does the following: The boat( 19 foot flying scot) is upside down. We know where the water line is. We spray black crappy paint on the freeboard (from water line to toe rail) and sand with 80 grit. Fill with evercoat( which has been thickened with cabosil) Samd again with 180 and then ( i love this ....roll with a foam rollar from home depot with Awlgrip). This finish will follow with more coats of awlgrip which will be filled and fared at every appli cation.Three coats total. The end result is awesome, fantastic, incredible .........If you have the time and the environment( no bugs) go for it.
A minor note .....don't over mix.....too much air is added.
We did a boat with his formula and it''s incredibly
The spraying process with awlcraft is our next step.......We learn as we go....What fun....Rich

[Desertmariner]

Let me add that the non-skid part of this process needs to follow.......He showed me a system which is really good... We've used it and i;ll share it soon.

[MikeD]

Eh hem! A post like this should really be accompanied by pictures...

[Rachel]

I'm curious: What's on the hull surface when you put the Evercoat/filler on? Is it gelcoat? Paint? Or...?

Rachel

[Desertmariner]

sorry bouit the lack of pictures. It's really hard to get good detail but i'll try.
The filling is on poor crazing gelcoat and just previous holes from fittings. In general i try to fill holes from screws with epoxy and filler. subsequent filling is done with evercoat. that has been stiffened with cabosil. Our first boat is out there getting knocked around and is a good alpha sample. I wish i could do better befores and afters. i must say though that the afters look like new.....no blemishes. And this was done with Awlgrip rolled on with 3 coats.....For expediency we've switched to Awlcraft and will spray it on in one application.......

[Desertmariner]

So to expound a little..... as subsequent coats go on we can add evercoat filler and fair...........Danny does this for a living and will not spray.... The boat yards won't allow him to.. and he feels like he gets better economy out of his paint . After rolling on the slick areas he then masks the area for the non skid to be aplied. He rolls it on and then shoots on the fine non skid. with a spray gun....... Lets it set up and then rolls another coat on. If it's too rough he rolls on a third coat..... I must say it comes out uniform and is easy to do......I'll try to get some pics on ouir first boat soon......The process is easy to do and simple......Hopefully the first time wasn't an accident....
Let me add that in general the Evercoat is for pinholes and small stuff. Any larger filling is done with epoxy and filler.
but a cool trick he taught us was to use a batch of filler bout the size of wallnut and have a ribbon of hardner bout half inch long nearby. on a piece of cardboard. You pull and mix what you can use for filling. The darn stuff goes off in about 70 seconds. this way you can get about 3 or 4 applications of it spread out at a time......If this doesn't make sense i''ll take a picture;

[Desertmariner]

Another pic of masking and filling
Most times the nonskid is added to the paint and rolled on. Getting it even is the trick.......This is the first i've seen it sprayed on....It seams to work though.
Rich
P.s. So to be clear the guy on the right is rolling on the light blue paint with a smooth foam roller. The guy on the left is spraying on awlgrip nonskid fine particles out of the spray gun.......How much? That's a judgement call.......Aint't this a hoot....
Rich.....

[Tim]

And this was done with Awlgrip rolled on with 3 coats.....For expediency we've switched to Awlcraft and will spray it on in one application...

As a point of clarification, note that all of these high-end topcoats, when sprayed, can and should be applied in a single day (3 applications with short breaks between coats): Awlgrip, Awlcraft, Alexseal, and others. (This goes for primers for these paint systems also.)

I mention this only because the implication in the quote above is that it was the switch to Awlcraft that allowed the one-day topcoat application versus 3- day; in fact, it's the switch to spray gear from roll-and-tip that allows this expediency.

Thanks for posting your pictures, which tell a lot about your process.

[Hirilondë]

Fill with evercoat( which has been thickened with cabosil)

Do you mean the brand name "Evercoat"? And if so, do you mean polyester resin?

[Desertmariner]

Yes .Evercoat is a polyester glazing putty. Which is relly good and fast at filling small imperfections on the Scots we're working on. In this pic Tony is filling tiny imperfections in the hull. Looks like a Jackson Pollack painting.
Rich

[Desertmariner]

Yes Tim.....The spraying process for us has shortened the down time for the boats. When we rolled with the foam rollers it took 3 separate days with longer wet times for insects to dive bomb into our finish. Awlcraft also makes sense for us because it can be repaired more easily than Awlgrip. And of course Awlcraft has to be sprayed. We sprayed yesterday with Awlcraft and it came out really nice. There's some touch-up because of some water drops and some sand kicking up in the finish in one spot. With Awlcraft we can do these repairs with relative ease. With Awlgrip i don't think they can be repaired easily ...... Then we can move on to the masking for the non-skid.....

[The Froon]

Does anyone see an issue here with the paint being sprayed without breathing protection?

[Tim]

Yes, but it's none of my beeswax.

[Hirilondë]

Your signature says your best days are ahead of you. This may not be true should you choose not to wear protection. But I am a safe distance away, so it won't bother me.

[Rachel]

So to be clear the guy on the right is rolling on the light blue paint with a smooth foam roller. The guy on the left is spraying on awlgrip nonskid fine particles out of the spray gun

I read this that the fellow with the spray gun is literally just spraying the non-skid particles, as a broadcasting technique.

Nonetheless, I did cringe a bit at the lack of gloves, respirators, and other forms of protection shown in the photos. I realize they are outside, and it looks warm out; still, if it were me, I would be wearing protection such as gloves, skin coverage, a respirator, and safety glasses.

Rachel

[Desertmariner]

When we spray paint we wear respirators . We spray or broadcast the nonskid material from the gun.
When we roll the Awlgrip on we haven't used gloves , respirators or goggles. But thanks for the Heads up on the safety equipment. We are outside and not in confined spaces. As we progress we will take a better and more serious look at the protective measures you've suggested. We do have three more to work on and i want to be alive to see their completion.

Rich

[tomwatt]

I know others have recommended masks, gloves, etc. Let me jump in on that and strongly recommend using caution and care with all volitile petroleum-based chemistry. Basic rule of thumb - if it smells 'good', be very very careful. Liver and kidney damage can result from exposure over time. And exposure has some linkage to cancer. Not good stuff to play with.
Most of us take reasonable precautions, but it never hurts to step back a bit and re-examine what precautions and procedures you are using to be doubly safe.

[Hirilondë]

Awlgrip is certainly more dangerous sprayed than rolled. But the chemicals that make it so shiny are isocyanates. They evaporate into the air no matter how you apply it and are one of the most dangerous chemicals in a boatyard. They are known to cause cancer and central nervous system damage. Even an organic vapors respirator will not help. They are odorless, so you won't even know the respirator is doing nothing to protect you against them.

If you read the label on Bristol Finish, which contains isocyanates, it says to use it outdoors in a well ventilated area (brushing). I am not sure why they can get away with such a flimsy safety message. It may be fine for the occasional user, but I don't trust breathing any amount. With so many good products that don't contain isocyanates, I see no reason to use them unless you can use the absolute best in protection, which is supplied air and proper clothing.

There is so much we don't know about chemicals and the damage they cause. Things that they (the proverbial they) say are safe in moderation are turning out to not be safe in any amount. Everyone has to determine for themselves where the line is. My line is way on the side of caution.

[Desertmariner]

I understand that supplied air would be the most desirable situation. We've been using organic canisters with face masks and i believe they are adequate when we are outside. Am i wrong in this thinking?. I sure don't smell any sweet stuff when i have them on. Is there a preferred mask for rolling or spraying.......Some better than others......Opinions please .....I'm not a lawyer....Just want to do whats best ...thanks.
rich

[Hirilondë]

Like I said above, no respirator works for isocyanates. And there is no smell, so there is no way to know that it isn't working. As to whether brushing outside is safe I can not say. Working around boats and the paints for a living I figure I am subject to things I can not control more than others, and therefore choose not to take any chances I can control.

[Rachel]

Well now I'm scared, because I had always understood that you *could* safely use a good, cartridge type respirator (with appropriate cartridges) to protect when rolling/brushing two-part paints like Awlgrip.

I thought the distinction was that for spraying you had to have supplied air, but that for rolling/brushing you could wear the cartridge respirator.

Yet now Hirilonde is saying that not only is the cartridge respirator not adequate when brushing/rolling, but that the bad stuff has no smell.

How did I go so wrong? Dangit.

[Hirilondë]

Yet now Hirilonde is saying that not only is the cartridge respirator not adequate when brushing/rolling, but that the bad stuff has no smell.

I am saying I am not comfortable using a cartridge respirator. The solvents are filtered out with an organic vapors cartridge, the isocyanates are not. So if you wear the respirator properly you will smell nothing, and not ever know how much isocyanates you are inhaling. When you roll or brush far less is in the air. Whether far less is little enough to be safe is a really grey area. I don't like grey.

[hebert01]

Here's an interesting study on the OSHA site that I believe Dow Chemical conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of cartridge respirators on filtering isocyanates (MDI isocyanates). While they showed some minimal effect at filtering initial exposure, it don't think the results look good enough that I'd use them on the job. As Hirlonde points out, the NCOs (isocyanates) have no smell, and they can also be ingested through contact with the skin.

I work around isocyanates in my job. We cast polyurethane and polyurea formulations in liquid form, and the particular chemistry we use doesn't require respiration equipment for handling the materials in liquid / solid form (although we do use vent hoods when handling them in the lab). Our chemistry is much different than Awlgrip, though. I actually haven't used Awlgrip myself, and can't speak to their specific handling recommendations. But in general, regarding isocyantes...if atomized or aerosolized, the rule is to definitely use a supplied/fresh air respirator. At the very least, even if roll/tipping, skin exposure is an issue. I'm sure the other organic vapors in the Awlgrip solvents (the smelly stuff) is no good for you either. I'd certainly recommend a proper organic vapor respirator if only to eliminate exposure to those, too.

I'm certainly not an occupational health/safety expert, or an Awlgrip expert. I'm just a guy who's received a lot of on the job training specifically focused on isocyanates. They are nasty chemicals, and need to be treated with respect. Follow all the manufacturer recommendations, and request /read the MSDS sheets on the materials you're using before you use them. That logic applies to epoxies, and other chemicals as well. You might be able to shrug off a few of these cautions with some household chemicals, but please don't apply that same indifference when handling isocyanates and other materials. Some of the products we use around the boatyard are serious chemicals...I'd advise to always do your homework first.

[Rachel]

Thanks for expanding on that. I haven't actually worked with Awlgrip (or similar LPU), although I have used two-part epoxy paints (Interlux Epoxy PrimeKote and 2000 barrier coat). I'll have to look up and see if they have isocyanates (maybe not since they are not particularly shiny -- I hope not!). They were very smelly, and my cartridge respirator eliminated the smell, so perhaps I'm okay if they don't have the isocyanates.

I typically err on the more cautious side with protection. For example, even outside I wear a respirator when using bottom paint. It smells and the respirator takes away the smell, so I think that means it's better than just breathing it even with "good ventilation."

I guess I had fallen for the "common knowledge" that rolling/brushing the LPUs was okay with a regular respirator. I'm now glad I haven't done that, and glad you've both set me straight (I realize it's grey, but like you, I don't want to be a guinea pig).

Rachel

[Tim]

LPU paint is not to be trifled with. That might be why the product cans state so clearly "for professional use only".

As with all things, the true danger ultimately comes down to the extent and regularity of exposure to any harmful substance. Painting one boat, whatever the respirator, is unlikely to cause great bodily harm to anyone. Painting boats every day obviously requires different approaches. I'd certainly never spray it without supplied air, ever, outdoors or in, whatever the extent of exposure.

There's only one of you, so it certainly pays to err on the side of too much caution rather than too little, even for minimal exposures. One must do what one feels is right for them, and with nasty chemicals safer is always better than less safe. Nonetheless, one can get so worked up over safety that life virtually stops from fear and worry, so there's always a happy medium somewhere that fits with what the job and exposure actually are.

I greatly dislike all handling and use of LPU paint, but it's far and away a better product, so I accept the risks involved and use appropriate respiratory equipment when using it. I am glad I only use it a few times a year, though, and during spray days I sure don't want to hang around longer than needed. I would never want to "just paint" for a living.

Don't use LPU if you aren't willing to accept the risks and take appropriate protective precautions. Most people probably shouldn't use it (and, thankfully, most don't). It's not something to mess around with and can represent a serious health hazard if not properly respected.

[Desertmariner]

So i'm thinking we'll take a closer look at supplied air. We have 3 boats to go and i want to spray. Any good system come to mind.
thanks