Well, I tried the Woodfinish Gloss this spring. This is the "no-sand varnish" made by Epifanes. I decided that because I was so late getting started on my varnish work, I needed to expedite the build-up process and a no-sand product seemed to be just the ticket.
I'm pretty particular about brightwork. Although I'm no expert at the whole varnish process, and I'm never really satisfied with my varnish work, the non-varnish alternatives just don't seem worth the minimal effort to me. I know many people like products like Cetol, but to me, brightwork should either be varnish or nothing.
That being said, any way to minimize the amount of work seems like it could be a good thing. I was a bit wary of straying from the tried-and-true: Epifanes's high-solids tung-oil based marine spar varnish. But, I had heard good things, including a glowing review in the Practical Sailor varnish head-to-head, so with a bit of trepidation, I decided to proceed.
Initial impressions: When you open the can, you will not confuse the stuff for traditional varnish. It looks sort of like... well... syrupy, unpasturized apple cider: reddish-brown and kind of cloudy. Smells more solventy than regular varnish, too. It's just a hair thinner than unthinned spar varnish, but not much so. The cloudiness made me a bit apprehensive about actually applying the stuff, but I dove in, and once the stuff is spread onto the wood, the cloudiness immediately disappears.
Current opinion: Basically I'm pretty satisfied with the results so far. I don't believe you can tell, by looking, that this stuff isn't real spar varnish. Probably in a head-to-head with the Epifanes Clear you could tell that it isn't quite as deeply lusterous, but anyone coming aboard my boat would not know that it wasn't a traditional varnish. I'll be interested to see how it holds up.
There are only two negatives that I have found with the stuff so far. First, not sanding between each coat makes it harder to get that nice mirror finish that a fine varnish job has. Sanding the coating helps flatten out the raised grain and makes the first coats of varnish fill in the grain better. However, a vigorous sanding after the 5th coat went a long way towards flattening the coamings. I'll give them another good sanding in the fall and lay on a couple more coats. Second, the Woodfinish Gloss seems to be just a bit lighter in color than the Epifanes Clear (clear is a misnomer for sure!). The difference is pretty slight, but could be a drawback for someone wanting that nice dark tone of the Epifanes.
Overall, though, a decent product. And it sure made getting a bunch of coats built up much easier!
Epifanes Woodfinish Gloss: Early Opinions In
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George ( Triton #236 )
Hui Guys,
I'm a huge fan of the Epifanes Gloss varnish. All the brightwork on #236 "Ca Ira" is done with it. The only thing I don't like about it is the amount of time required between coats ( about 24 hrs.) and it's sensitivity to contaminates like wax ( even getting near wax paper will dull a two square inch area ), or oils from finger prints, or even impurities in mineral oil. This is especially true as you get up around coats eight or nine. Also, it takes a good week or two to really harden up once you have finished.
I find that you have to lightly sand every three or four coats. Otherwise the bumps get out of control.
I love the finish though!!! Deep and rich looking, lasts well too!
However...
I'm about to embark on a new varnish procedure. One of the guys I compete against in the local regattas is the finish manager of the largest and best boat yard on the lower Chesapeake Bay. Here is the formula they use:
Coat 1 -- 50/50 Z-Spar varnish and quality mineral oil.
Coat 2 -- 75/25 Z-Spar varnish and quality mineral oil.
Coats 3 - 8 -- Z-Spar varnish with light sanding as needed.
Coats 9 - 12 -- Epifanes Gloss with light sanding every other coat and before final coat.
Note : Before every coat the piece to be varnished is wiped down with rubbing alcohol. The rubbing alcohol wipe eliminates residue without the problems that mineral oil can have on Epifanes after a lot of coats have been built up. They do not use mineral oil to wipe down the pieces between coats!
Note : The Z-Spar is used because it dries quickly enough so that three coats can be laid down in one work day. This alows the above process to be condenced to 7 work days.
The varnish crews are able to turn out hundreds of magazine quality finishes in teak and mahagony with the above process. I say magazine quality because lots of the work ends up in magazines ( you should see the boats at this yard! )
Good stuff and I hope to try it soon!
George
#236 "Ca Ira"
I'm a huge fan of the Epifanes Gloss varnish. All the brightwork on #236 "Ca Ira" is done with it. The only thing I don't like about it is the amount of time required between coats ( about 24 hrs.) and it's sensitivity to contaminates like wax ( even getting near wax paper will dull a two square inch area ), or oils from finger prints, or even impurities in mineral oil. This is especially true as you get up around coats eight or nine. Also, it takes a good week or two to really harden up once you have finished.
I find that you have to lightly sand every three or four coats. Otherwise the bumps get out of control.
I love the finish though!!! Deep and rich looking, lasts well too!
However...
I'm about to embark on a new varnish procedure. One of the guys I compete against in the local regattas is the finish manager of the largest and best boat yard on the lower Chesapeake Bay. Here is the formula they use:
Coat 1 -- 50/50 Z-Spar varnish and quality mineral oil.
Coat 2 -- 75/25 Z-Spar varnish and quality mineral oil.
Coats 3 - 8 -- Z-Spar varnish with light sanding as needed.
Coats 9 - 12 -- Epifanes Gloss with light sanding every other coat and before final coat.
Note : Before every coat the piece to be varnished is wiped down with rubbing alcohol. The rubbing alcohol wipe eliminates residue without the problems that mineral oil can have on Epifanes after a lot of coats have been built up. They do not use mineral oil to wipe down the pieces between coats!
Note : The Z-Spar is used because it dries quickly enough so that three coats can be laid down in one work day. This alows the above process to be condenced to 7 work days.
The varnish crews are able to turn out hundreds of magazine quality finishes in teak and mahagony with the above process. I say magazine quality because lots of the work ends up in magazines ( you should see the boats at this yard! )
Good stuff and I hope to try it soon!
George
#236 "Ca Ira"
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Dave 397
Mineral Oil?
I know plenty about spraying Nitro, and squat about varnishing except that I am never truly happy with my results and that it drives me ape trying. I've never heard of this mineral oil application. I dislike the appearance of Cetol, but am attracted by its' durability. If there is a low-hassle, good looking and low-maintenance product that will not make my new woodwork look like ookum, I am very intersted. I have also been dealing with a non-marine woodworking project now for a while in Z-Spar and am perennialy aggrieved in the process...I'd really like to hear more about this mineral oil trick!
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks,
Dave
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dasein668
- Boateg
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George: I'll be interested in hearing a report on the z-spar/epifanes results.
Dave: My opinion is that if you dislike the look of Cetol, don't go there--durability or no. You'll never be happy with it and it'll drive you nutty. My feeling is that if I wasn't going to struggle with varnish, I'd go with oil. Real oil. Yes, you need to reapply constantly, but oiling wood is relatively low-fuss, and I definitely like the look a ton more than Cetol.
Dave: My opinion is that if you dislike the look of Cetol, don't go there--durability or no. You'll never be happy with it and it'll drive you nutty. My feeling is that if I wasn't going to struggle with varnish, I'd go with oil. Real oil. Yes, you need to reapply constantly, but oiling wood is relatively low-fuss, and I definitely like the look a ton more than Cetol.
Nathan
dasein668.com
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
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There are no miracle products for wood care on boats. Every possible finish has its compromises--choose which compromises you like best.
Varnish--looks great, but requires constant and vigilent attention in order to maintain, especially in tropical sun. If it gets away from you, you're in big trouble.
Oil--Looks good at first, but tends to collect dirt, turning your wood into a dark, dreary mess that then requires substantial restorative work yet again. Way more maintenance than it's worth.
Cetol--if you like Halloween, this is the stuff for you. Orange as a pumpkin, and just about as opaque.
Bristol Finish--not the miracle product it is touted to be. I have heard many failure stories. Definitely not the way to go.
Bare wood--THE option if you don't like varnish. Bare, lightly weathered wood is an acceptable look for sailboats. Give it a saltwater scrub every so often to keep it silvery gray--don't scrub too often, or too hard, or you risk harming the wood and leaving it fill of the heavy, coarse winter grain.
If you aren't good at varnishing, and/or don't like the work involved, DO NOT varnish. It will only peel and look horrible. Varnish isn't a finish--it's a way of life. Don't choose it unknowingly.
Tim
Varnish--looks great, but requires constant and vigilent attention in order to maintain, especially in tropical sun. If it gets away from you, you're in big trouble.
Oil--Looks good at first, but tends to collect dirt, turning your wood into a dark, dreary mess that then requires substantial restorative work yet again. Way more maintenance than it's worth.
Cetol--if you like Halloween, this is the stuff for you. Orange as a pumpkin, and just about as opaque.
Bristol Finish--not the miracle product it is touted to be. I have heard many failure stories. Definitely not the way to go.
Bare wood--THE option if you don't like varnish. Bare, lightly weathered wood is an acceptable look for sailboats. Give it a saltwater scrub every so often to keep it silvery gray--don't scrub too often, or too hard, or you risk harming the wood and leaving it fill of the heavy, coarse winter grain.
If you aren't good at varnishing, and/or don't like the work involved, DO NOT varnish. It will only peel and look horrible. Varnish isn't a finish--it's a way of life. Don't choose it unknowingly.
Tim
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dasein668
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You sound like Don Casey! heheTim wrote:
If you aren't good at varnishing, and/or don't like the work involved, DO NOT varnish. It will only peel and look horrible. Varnish isn't a finish--it's a way of life. Don't choose it unknowingly.
Tim
It's a way of life, but nothing looks like it either. No body ever said perfection was easy!
Nathan
dasein668.com
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Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
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I detest cetol.
Having said that.... at the moment I LOVE the stuff!
Prior to the incident which spurned #78's three years of neglect, the brightwork was cetol'd. I thank god that it was. From the appearances of things, I thought I was going to have to scrap all of the woodwork and start from scratch, but I guess the cetol did it's thing, because 90% of it turned out to be slavageable.
Three+ years completely exposed without a lick of maintenance. Not too shabby.
Having said that.... at the moment I LOVE the stuff!
Prior to the incident which spurned #78's three years of neglect, the brightwork was cetol'd. I thank god that it was. From the appearances of things, I thought I was going to have to scrap all of the woodwork and start from scratch, but I guess the cetol did it's thing, because 90% of it turned out to be slavageable.
Three+ years completely exposed without a lick of maintenance. Not too shabby.
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Dave 397
varnishing
Ah. I will not be defeated by a can of solvents and pigments that easily!
What was the deal with the mineral oil? Like most finishing tricks with other media, it is not mentioned on the label...
Dave
What was the deal with the mineral oil? Like most finishing tricks with other media, it is not mentioned on the label...
Dave
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George ( Triton #236 )
Hi Dave,
The reason you haven't heard about the "mineral oil trick" is that I should have written "mineral spirits". Everywhere in my last post please substitute "mineral spirits" for "mineral oil" ( I must have mineral oil on the brain having just installed a Standard Horizons depth sounder system with the transducer in a mineral oil cylinder )
If I'm still being unclear I will talk about the process a bit and see if it answers your question...
In my experience, varnishing is the art of patience, light sanding, and tack cloths.
-- Patience because it usually takes me two to three weeks to produce a finished piece from bare wood ( and I always strip down to bare wood )
-- Light Sanding because no matter how many times it says "no sand" on the label you can't lay up 12 coats of varnish without a little sanding.
-- Tack Cloths because quality varnish hates dirt, oil, wax, pollen, etc. Normally, you put a bit of mineral spirits on a clean tack cloth and wipe down all the pieces you are about to varnish. Occasionally ( my own experience is 1 piece in every 50 ), a dull area will show up on the surface of a piece around coat 9 and will transfer to the next coat if you try to varnish over it. My friend Barry ( the finish manager ) says this is due to the fact that Epifanes is very intolerant of some of the residues that can be left behind by even good quality mineral spirits. Hence the alcohol wipe instead of a mineral spirits wipe. It seems to work too because these guys are doing hundreds of pieces at a time and the finish is outstanding ( magazine photo shoot quality ).
Myself, I love the look of Epifanes and other top quality varnishes, don't like the look of Cetol, and really don't like the look of gray teak or mahagony. It's a lot of work to keep up with the varnish though. I have upwards of 60 individual pieces of teak or mahagony on "Ca Ira" that get rotated through my workshop every two years. So for two - three weeks a year in the winter I spend an hour each night laying up varnish on 20 - 40 pieces of wood. It's not too bad though, and I've grown to love the smell of Epifanes. Re-bedding stuff... that's another story.
George
Triton #236
The reason you haven't heard about the "mineral oil trick" is that I should have written "mineral spirits". Everywhere in my last post please substitute "mineral spirits" for "mineral oil" ( I must have mineral oil on the brain having just installed a Standard Horizons depth sounder system with the transducer in a mineral oil cylinder )
If I'm still being unclear I will talk about the process a bit and see if it answers your question...
In my experience, varnishing is the art of patience, light sanding, and tack cloths.
-- Patience because it usually takes me two to three weeks to produce a finished piece from bare wood ( and I always strip down to bare wood )
-- Light Sanding because no matter how many times it says "no sand" on the label you can't lay up 12 coats of varnish without a little sanding.
-- Tack Cloths because quality varnish hates dirt, oil, wax, pollen, etc. Normally, you put a bit of mineral spirits on a clean tack cloth and wipe down all the pieces you are about to varnish. Occasionally ( my own experience is 1 piece in every 50 ), a dull area will show up on the surface of a piece around coat 9 and will transfer to the next coat if you try to varnish over it. My friend Barry ( the finish manager ) says this is due to the fact that Epifanes is very intolerant of some of the residues that can be left behind by even good quality mineral spirits. Hence the alcohol wipe instead of a mineral spirits wipe. It seems to work too because these guys are doing hundreds of pieces at a time and the finish is outstanding ( magazine photo shoot quality ).
Myself, I love the look of Epifanes and other top quality varnishes, don't like the look of Cetol, and really don't like the look of gray teak or mahagony. It's a lot of work to keep up with the varnish though. I have upwards of 60 individual pieces of teak or mahagony on "Ca Ira" that get rotated through my workshop every two years. So for two - three weeks a year in the winter I spend an hour each night laying up varnish on 20 - 40 pieces of wood. It's not too bad though, and I've grown to love the smell of Epifanes. Re-bedding stuff... that's another story.
George
Triton #236
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
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- Boat Name: Glissando
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George,
That's interesting about the problem with Epifanes's intolerance to impurities in products like mineral spirits, even when simply used to wash the surface. Although I knew that it was very specific about using the special Epifanes thinner to mix with the varnish (which I do), I never thought to associate some of the minor problems I've had now and then with surface contamination with the paint thinner I use to wipe down after sanding.
From now on, I'll use the alcohol to wipe down instead. Good tip!
Tim
That's interesting about the problem with Epifanes's intolerance to impurities in products like mineral spirits, even when simply used to wash the surface. Although I knew that it was very specific about using the special Epifanes thinner to mix with the varnish (which I do), I never thought to associate some of the minor problems I've had now and then with surface contamination with the paint thinner I use to wipe down after sanding.
From now on, I'll use the alcohol to wipe down instead. Good tip!
Tim
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D. Fox
lower Chesapeake
Apologies for straying from the topic...
George, where do you keep your boat? I just moved to the tidewater area and will be slipping mine at Wormley Creek, near Yorktown. The boat is in Reedville right now due to engine failure enroute (arrrgghh) from Annapolis. We're going to bring her the last 50 miles next weekend. What's the boat yard you referred to in your previous post?
Dan
George, where do you keep your boat? I just moved to the tidewater area and will be slipping mine at Wormley Creek, near Yorktown. The boat is in Reedville right now due to engine failure enroute (arrrgghh) from Annapolis. We're going to bring her the last 50 miles next weekend. What's the boat yard you referred to in your previous post?
Dan
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George ( Triton #236 )
Hi Dan,
I'm almost directly across the York River from Wormley Creek at York River Yacht Haven in Gloucester Point. You'll be happy to know that my friend Mike Antal has Triton hull #399 "Hummingbird" at Wormley Creek also.
The yard I was talking about is simply the boatyard at York River Yacht Haven. Excellent reputation and pretty good prices too. You can see a lot of interesting boats there as big time European sailboat cruisers and power yachters tend to migrate through the yard. The marina even has two transient slips to handle yachts up to 168'. A lot of people bring old wooden classics there as well to have my friend Barry's crews work on them. That's how I met Kenny Brittle who owns the 1959 Concordia Sloop.
The club ( York River Yacht Club ) does races every Wednesday night at 6:00pm from April through November and then a Frostbite series in December on Saturday mornings so feel free to come on by for a race. There are currently 30 yachts that participate so the racing is pretty lively. We have boats that come over from Wormley Creek as well as Cooks Marina so you'll be in good company
My e-mail is gjones1735@cox.net if you need any additional info.
George
Triton # 236 "Ca Ira"
I'm almost directly across the York River from Wormley Creek at York River Yacht Haven in Gloucester Point. You'll be happy to know that my friend Mike Antal has Triton hull #399 "Hummingbird" at Wormley Creek also.
The yard I was talking about is simply the boatyard at York River Yacht Haven. Excellent reputation and pretty good prices too. You can see a lot of interesting boats there as big time European sailboat cruisers and power yachters tend to migrate through the yard. The marina even has two transient slips to handle yachts up to 168'. A lot of people bring old wooden classics there as well to have my friend Barry's crews work on them. That's how I met Kenny Brittle who owns the 1959 Concordia Sloop.
The club ( York River Yacht Club ) does races every Wednesday night at 6:00pm from April through November and then a Frostbite series in December on Saturday mornings so feel free to come on by for a race. There are currently 30 yachts that participate so the racing is pretty lively. We have boats that come over from Wormley Creek as well as Cooks Marina so you'll be in good company
My e-mail is gjones1735@cox.net if you need any additional info.
George
Triton # 236 "Ca Ira"
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
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I like tung oil and have used it for interior projects in the past. It's a cinch to use, and builds up a very nice satin gloss after a number of coats. Epifanes varnish is, in part, based on traditional tung oil.
However, I believe that tung oil lacks the UV protectors that are added to spar varnishes, and would not hold up alone under the sun.
Tim
However, I believe that tung oil lacks the UV protectors that are added to spar varnishes, and would not hold up alone under the sun.
Tim
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heartofgold
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Following up on an old post....
I know this is an old post, but I am about to start varnishing everything mahogany on my boat. It's all fresh pieces of wood taking a first time application of varnish. I am considering using the recipe George suggested above. As it's been almost a year since this original post, I was hoping someone may have tried this one out and may be able to offer some feedback? Any takers? On the same lines, with this recipe, would anyone recomend Z-Spar Captain's varnish or Flagship. Oh yea, and has anyone tried the alcohol between coats instead of mineral spirits?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Doug
http://heartofgoldsails.com
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
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"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea."
Karen Blixen
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Tim
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I now clean the wood with alcohol between coats. It seems to work fine, though I don't notice any significant difference one way or another. I hate the sweet smell of denatured alcohol, but it does evaporate much faster than the heavy, oily paint thinner.
I still use Epifanes (not the "woodfinish gloss", but the real varnish) and love it. It just looks like nothing else. Having seen the no-sand stuff on a few boats, I can report that it looks good and is very glossy. Unlike the traditional Epifanes, it seems to actually darken with age, which is interesting. It goes on more golden, and darkens a little redder. It's pitfall is that, without any sanding during the coating process, it can tend to build up some lumps and bumps (so to speak). A thorough "flattening sand" and then coating with a regular varnish thereafter would take care of that. It is definitely funky stuff when you see it in the can.
The no-sand "Woodfinish Gloss" by Epifanes is perfectly fine, but I'm stubbornly sticking to my all-Epifanes gloss varnish religion. I might consider the Epifanes no sand ("woodfinish gloss") as base coats on new wood on a different project someday, but would still follow up with final coats of the real Epifanes varnish.
I think the only way to know what works for you is to try out a few things. Over the years, I have used many different varnishes on many different boats. All of them look fantastic when applied, frankly. It's more about ease of application and final coloring than anything else. Any varnish looks great when maintained, but there are definitely subtle differences. Epifanes is not for everyone--definitely more of a challenge to use.
Flagship and Captains varnish are generally thought to be nice products, but do have a different final color than you get with Epifanes--both are somewhat more golden in final appearance, whereas Epifanes has a more deep tone that, I think, perfectly suits mahogany. I suggest some samples to find the right one for you.
I still use Epifanes (not the "woodfinish gloss", but the real varnish) and love it. It just looks like nothing else. Having seen the no-sand stuff on a few boats, I can report that it looks good and is very glossy. Unlike the traditional Epifanes, it seems to actually darken with age, which is interesting. It goes on more golden, and darkens a little redder. It's pitfall is that, without any sanding during the coating process, it can tend to build up some lumps and bumps (so to speak). A thorough "flattening sand" and then coating with a regular varnish thereafter would take care of that. It is definitely funky stuff when you see it in the can.
The no-sand "Woodfinish Gloss" by Epifanes is perfectly fine, but I'm stubbornly sticking to my all-Epifanes gloss varnish religion. I might consider the Epifanes no sand ("woodfinish gloss") as base coats on new wood on a different project someday, but would still follow up with final coats of the real Epifanes varnish.
I think the only way to know what works for you is to try out a few things. Over the years, I have used many different varnishes on many different boats. All of them look fantastic when applied, frankly. It's more about ease of application and final coloring than anything else. Any varnish looks great when maintained, but there are definitely subtle differences. Epifanes is not for everyone--definitely more of a challenge to use.
Flagship and Captains varnish are generally thought to be nice products, but do have a different final color than you get with Epifanes--both are somewhat more golden in final appearance, whereas Epifanes has a more deep tone that, I think, perfectly suits mahogany. I suggest some samples to find the right one for you.
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Tony
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Howdy y'all,
Two things:
1) We use Tung oil on our teak, and so far it seems to weather well, in our wet weather portland environment. It does require any additional coat or two every so often (month or so tops) to maintain it, I give it a light sanding with 220 and that cleans it up nice before the maintenance coat.
2) A word of caution with the alcohol between varnish coats: I use alcohol all the time both at work and in pro sound for cleaning applicaitons. Make sure you get denatured alcohol, as standard rubbing alcohol has oils in it that will get left behind. If the varnish is intolerent to the oils in mineral spirits, you'll probably get the same reaction with standard rubbing alcohol.
Regards,
Two things:
1) We use Tung oil on our teak, and so far it seems to weather well, in our wet weather portland environment. It does require any additional coat or two every so often (month or so tops) to maintain it, I give it a light sanding with 220 and that cleans it up nice before the maintenance coat.
2) A word of caution with the alcohol between varnish coats: I use alcohol all the time both at work and in pro sound for cleaning applicaitons. Make sure you get denatured alcohol, as standard rubbing alcohol has oils in it that will get left behind. If the varnish is intolerent to the oils in mineral spirits, you'll probably get the same reaction with standard rubbing alcohol.
Regards,
Tony
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kaynee30boot
epifanes and clouding and thinner
The first time I used Epi Gloss, I thinned with cheapo miniral spirits; got a milky white cast to the finish. I then started using pure gum turpentine and the problem went away: I refuse to use their thinner...more expensive than French perfume.
So I'm thinkin' that the marring mentioned , due to tween-coat wipedown, may be caused by cheapo mineral spirits.
Try real turps. My varnish comes out pretty good and glossy and , so far, my original work has not peeled or cracked.
Jeff
So I'm thinkin' that the marring mentioned , due to tween-coat wipedown, may be caused by cheapo mineral spirits.
Try real turps. My varnish comes out pretty good and glossy and , so far, my original work has not peeled or cracked.
Jeff
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dasein668
- Boateg
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I find it interesting that so many people have had bad luck with cheapo spirits and the Epi... I've always had good luck with the plain old 4 dollar a gallon stuff. I don't think I have an uncritical eye...
Wonder if its just the brand of cheapo, or if it might be something else?
Wonder if its just the brand of cheapo, or if it might be something else?
Nathan
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