I think a classic is any older (30+ years) sailboat which is used (and loved) by her owner. I am in the process of restoring a Grampian 23 (1973 vintage hence the 30+ year reference) which I salvaged from a river bottom. In the past nine months, my family and I have used this boat more than she has been used in the past nine years. The deck was spongy, the cabin mildewed and the cushions original. Perhaps not the best combination, but when we are sailing, it doesn't matter.
Projects are mounting up and some have been already finished, but simply using the boat has pointed out all sorts of things. A cruise to Everglades National Park and the 10,000 islands certainly showed the cruising potential of the design. The cushions and mildewed cabin have since been cleaned/fixed. The stanchion boltholes were the culprits of the spongy deck; I have bolted a 1/2" thick poly board over the holes and with lots of silicone, have made a temporary waterproof seal until I can haul the boat and properly re-core the deck. The fairer sex heartily approves of the improvements in the cabin environment.
This design is not the fastest not the prettiest, but to have the opportunity to try and with as simple a budget as possible, get the maximum usage out of the vessel and in the process give others the pleasure of a sail, I think this is all part of the mix. (Looking back, maybe I a just a mad fool of a sailor.)
Back to the question, I think any vessel which survives this long and can still look handsome and give pleasure to a sailor deserves to be included.
Living in Southwest Florida and having the opportunity of sailing year-round certainly helps, too.
Cheers all,
Ian
What is a classic?
-
grampianman
- Master Varnisher
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:21 pm
- Location: South West Florida
- Contact:
-
D. Fox
classics
OK, I'll bite on this one even though my response might not be a popular one. I'd say a classic is "an object that has broad and enduring value or appeal." Made that up myself without any help from Mr. Webster, so I can't shift blame. I don't think your Grampian would fit that definition...I'm not being elitist, as I'm not sure my Bristol would either. They may both be fine boats, and we may love 'em, but I don't think they have the widespread attraction, or long-lived appeal, of other boats that might fit that definition (like a Hinckley). I think the Triton would, as they have such a widespread, almost cultish following. Which highlights the oddness of defining a "classic" in my mind - my B27 has an almost identical hull form and profile as the Triton, but not the same "broad and enduring appeal." Go figure.
Nomex suit on...awaiting responses.
Dan
Nomex suit on...awaiting responses.
Dan
-
Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
- Posts: 2846
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:32 am
- Boat Name: Triton
- Boat Type: Grand Banks 42
- Location: L.I. Sound
classicness
I'm starting to appreciate the genius behind the magazine title Good Old Boat, as it's inclusive enough to gather everyone who has a loveable "classic", without begging definition of "classic".
Personally, I don't think one can use "cult following" as an attribute of a classic boat. Look at the Tanzers..... huge cult following of incredibly dedicated owners, but I don't think ANY of those owners would hazard to call their vessel a "classic" yacht.
Maybe I'm just in a negative frame of mind, but as I sit here and think I'm finding it far easier to define what is NOT a classic than what IS a classic.
How long until I can call my dad's 1988 corvette a "classic"???
Edit: Yeah, I was in a foul mood last night. Oughtn't to have been so harsh. Classic or not, SAIL WHAT YOU LOVE, AND LOVE WHAT YOU SAIL. The rest is all marketing.
Personally, I don't think one can use "cult following" as an attribute of a classic boat. Look at the Tanzers..... huge cult following of incredibly dedicated owners, but I don't think ANY of those owners would hazard to call their vessel a "classic" yacht.
Maybe I'm just in a negative frame of mind, but as I sit here and think I'm finding it far easier to define what is NOT a classic than what IS a classic.
How long until I can call my dad's 1988 corvette a "classic"???
Edit: Yeah, I was in a foul mood last night. Oughtn't to have been so harsh. Classic or not, SAIL WHAT YOU LOVE, AND LOVE WHAT YOU SAIL. The rest is all marketing.
Last edited by Figment on Thu May 22, 2003 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
To paraphrase a famous quote:
I don't know what a classic is, but I know one when I see it.
"Classic" may be one of the more over-used catch phrases today. People crave nostalgia and the "good old days", despite living in ways that are so far removed as to be almost humorous, and therefore tend to use labels such as "classic" for a wide variety of things--many of which have no business being called that. To me, classic is a tighter, more specific class of object that doesn't include certain things just because they have cult followings, or were wildly successful in sales, or because they are old. To me, to be deemed "classic" requires more--something sublime, emotional, sentimental. Read on.
In the auto world, a car can be registered as "antique" after 25 years. But we all know that "antique" and "classic" are two different, unrelated things. The word antique has come to imply some enduring value, but this isn't often the case. Just drive past those summer "antique" stores lining Route 1 in every town in Maine and you'll understand.
So what makes a classic boat? Obviously, it's not age--not all old boats are classics, and some new boats are destined to be classic the moment they hit the water. It's not style--plenty of handsome boats will never make it as a classic in most people's eyes.
Defining a classic is certainly subjective in many cases. But then, does that go against that particular boat actually being a classic? I largely agree with Dan's definition that, to be classic, the object requires widespread and enduring appeal. Value, to me, is too subjective a term to include in the definition: do we mean emotional value (subjective and open to interpretation) or monetary value (who's to say that an object requires great worth in order to be classic). To that, I would add that the object (boats, in this discussion) requires a certain pedigree behind her design and construction. Making an indelible mark in the history books for whatever reason is also an important factor in defining any boat as a classic.
Perhaps the Triton is a classic because, not only is her design attractive, well-heeled, and a fine performer, but she also created a stir in the boat market, back in 1959, that will never be erased or forgotten. Many boats that came afterwards attempted to emulate the style and overall quality of function that the Triton possessed--and many were successful. But because they were basically "copycats", or refinements to the original concept, they lacked that kind of industry-changing revolution that surrounded other boats.
If the Triton was hopelessly ugly, or a poor performer, or built so poorly that she couldn't survive, would the design be classic, all other things being the same? I don't think so. Being an industry-changing design isn't enough, in and of itself. There has to be more. There are dozens of forgotten designs from around the same time.
(Aside: I didn't mean to turn this into a discussion of the Triton as a Classic, per se. It's just an obvious example to use for the illustration of my take on this topic.)
Cult value has some importance when defining a classic, but all boats with cult value are not classics. The Tanzers are a good example. They have a strong following because they were mass-produced, there are thousands of them out there, and the boats serve a specific purpose that those who love them enjoy. Is the Tanzer 22--the design that made the company, and the most ubiquitous of them all--a classic? In my own personal definition, no. That's not to say that it is not a significant design--it absolutely is. But significance alone is not enough.
What about the Catalina 30? If you can go into any harbor, boatyard, or marina anywhere in this country without seeing at least one of these tubby, bent cabin-looking things, you get a kewpie doll. They're everywhere. A significant design? Yes. A classic? Um--no. Not by the definition that makes or breaks it in my mind.
See, this is the fine line. Many folks would call these boats classic because of their overall significance. But it's just not enough. One should be able to scroll through the list of "classic" boats that some of us have listed on this thread to get a good idea what I, and some of the others, perceive as classic designs. By viewing these, it should become apparent what sort of enduring appeal they seem to have--though just why is indefinable. "Classic" may have come to mean "old, nostalgic, and significant" in this world, but using it thusly diminishes its overall descriptive qualities. Hence the discussion here.
To me, calling a sailboat "classic" evokes images of broad expanses of white sail, long, graceful overhangs, sheerlines containing the right spring, and smooth hull shapes intended to slip through the water with a minimum of fuss. I see golden brightwork, white paint, dark paint. I see sepia images of days gone by. (There's an interesting thought: can you picture your boat in a sepia-toned photo, and looking good therein? Perchance that a classic makes.) Please note that my images above could apply to older--and also some more modern--designs. That's the beauty of my mental image of a classic--it doesn't have to be 20 or 50 or whatever years old to qualify. It just has to be right.
To me, a classic sailboat is one that, when referred to as a classic in a mixed company of sailors, does not evoke brisk controversy as to whether or not it's attractive, or a classic. It's that "broad appeal" thing. While beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, to some extent a beautiful sailboat is a beautiful sailboat. Certain designs definitely make this cut, regardless of one's personal taste for their own boat. That is what truly makes a classic.
As to the magazine title Good Old Boat: yes, it is a genius. It is such an all-encompassing term that it can include boats from every walk of life. But by no means are they all classic. A Tanzer 22, Catalina 30, or--yes--even a Dawson 26 (ketch rig, please) can certainly be a Good Old Boat in the eyes of their owner. That doesn't make them classic, and the publishers of the mag know that, and came up with the appropriate term to describe the contents of their magazine.
A Good Old Boat isn't necessarily a classic. But a classic, assuming it's old enough, is certainly a Good Old Boat.
Tim
I don't know what a classic is, but I know one when I see it.
"Classic" may be one of the more over-used catch phrases today. People crave nostalgia and the "good old days", despite living in ways that are so far removed as to be almost humorous, and therefore tend to use labels such as "classic" for a wide variety of things--many of which have no business being called that. To me, classic is a tighter, more specific class of object that doesn't include certain things just because they have cult followings, or were wildly successful in sales, or because they are old. To me, to be deemed "classic" requires more--something sublime, emotional, sentimental. Read on.
In the auto world, a car can be registered as "antique" after 25 years. But we all know that "antique" and "classic" are two different, unrelated things. The word antique has come to imply some enduring value, but this isn't often the case. Just drive past those summer "antique" stores lining Route 1 in every town in Maine and you'll understand.
So what makes a classic boat? Obviously, it's not age--not all old boats are classics, and some new boats are destined to be classic the moment they hit the water. It's not style--plenty of handsome boats will never make it as a classic in most people's eyes.
Defining a classic is certainly subjective in many cases. But then, does that go against that particular boat actually being a classic? I largely agree with Dan's definition that, to be classic, the object requires widespread and enduring appeal. Value, to me, is too subjective a term to include in the definition: do we mean emotional value (subjective and open to interpretation) or monetary value (who's to say that an object requires great worth in order to be classic). To that, I would add that the object (boats, in this discussion) requires a certain pedigree behind her design and construction. Making an indelible mark in the history books for whatever reason is also an important factor in defining any boat as a classic.
Perhaps the Triton is a classic because, not only is her design attractive, well-heeled, and a fine performer, but she also created a stir in the boat market, back in 1959, that will never be erased or forgotten. Many boats that came afterwards attempted to emulate the style and overall quality of function that the Triton possessed--and many were successful. But because they were basically "copycats", or refinements to the original concept, they lacked that kind of industry-changing revolution that surrounded other boats.
If the Triton was hopelessly ugly, or a poor performer, or built so poorly that she couldn't survive, would the design be classic, all other things being the same? I don't think so. Being an industry-changing design isn't enough, in and of itself. There has to be more. There are dozens of forgotten designs from around the same time.
(Aside: I didn't mean to turn this into a discussion of the Triton as a Classic, per se. It's just an obvious example to use for the illustration of my take on this topic.)
Cult value has some importance when defining a classic, but all boats with cult value are not classics. The Tanzers are a good example. They have a strong following because they were mass-produced, there are thousands of them out there, and the boats serve a specific purpose that those who love them enjoy. Is the Tanzer 22--the design that made the company, and the most ubiquitous of them all--a classic? In my own personal definition, no. That's not to say that it is not a significant design--it absolutely is. But significance alone is not enough.
What about the Catalina 30? If you can go into any harbor, boatyard, or marina anywhere in this country without seeing at least one of these tubby, bent cabin-looking things, you get a kewpie doll. They're everywhere. A significant design? Yes. A classic? Um--no. Not by the definition that makes or breaks it in my mind.
See, this is the fine line. Many folks would call these boats classic because of their overall significance. But it's just not enough. One should be able to scroll through the list of "classic" boats that some of us have listed on this thread to get a good idea what I, and some of the others, perceive as classic designs. By viewing these, it should become apparent what sort of enduring appeal they seem to have--though just why is indefinable. "Classic" may have come to mean "old, nostalgic, and significant" in this world, but using it thusly diminishes its overall descriptive qualities. Hence the discussion here.
To me, calling a sailboat "classic" evokes images of broad expanses of white sail, long, graceful overhangs, sheerlines containing the right spring, and smooth hull shapes intended to slip through the water with a minimum of fuss. I see golden brightwork, white paint, dark paint. I see sepia images of days gone by. (There's an interesting thought: can you picture your boat in a sepia-toned photo, and looking good therein? Perchance that a classic makes.) Please note that my images above could apply to older--and also some more modern--designs. That's the beauty of my mental image of a classic--it doesn't have to be 20 or 50 or whatever years old to qualify. It just has to be right.
To me, a classic sailboat is one that, when referred to as a classic in a mixed company of sailors, does not evoke brisk controversy as to whether or not it's attractive, or a classic. It's that "broad appeal" thing. While beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, to some extent a beautiful sailboat is a beautiful sailboat. Certain designs definitely make this cut, regardless of one's personal taste for their own boat. That is what truly makes a classic.
As to the magazine title Good Old Boat: yes, it is a genius. It is such an all-encompassing term that it can include boats from every walk of life. But by no means are they all classic. A Tanzer 22, Catalina 30, or--yes--even a Dawson 26 (ketch rig, please) can certainly be a Good Old Boat in the eyes of their owner. That doesn't make them classic, and the publishers of the mag know that, and came up with the appropriate term to describe the contents of their magazine.
A Good Old Boat isn't necessarily a classic. But a classic, assuming it's old enough, is certainly a Good Old Boat.
Tim
-
Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
- Posts: 5708
- Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
- Boat Name: Glissando
- Boat Type: Pearson Triton
- Location: Whitefield, ME
- Contact:
See, it works for Dasein.
But what about for the dreaded Dawson 26? Nah...
Tim
(Thanks to Nathan for his proper conversion of this photo to sepia)
But what about for the dreaded Dawson 26? Nah...
Tim
(Thanks to Nathan for his proper conversion of this photo to sepia)
Last edited by Tim on Thu May 22, 2003 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
Figment
- Damned Because It's All Connected
- Posts: 2846
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:32 am
- Boat Name: Triton
- Boat Type: Grand Banks 42
- Location: L.I. Sound
instant classic
Let's remember that there is such a thing as an "instant classic".
this springs to mind.... (Rumery's Frost 38)
this springs to mind.... (Rumery's Frost 38)
-
D. Fox
classics
Figment, I didn't notice any harshness in your initial response, and couldn't agree more with your comment on "sailing what you love." That's the heart of the point I was trying to make.
I didn't say that a classic HAS to have a "cult following." I think it has to have widespread appeal. I understand your point about Tanzers (though I know little about the boats), but having a devoted following among a few is not the same thing. Innumerable objects have that type of following, from boats to beanie babies.
Tim, I agree with nearly everything you wrote but have a couple thoughts. Regarding value, I would say that anything that has "widespread and enduring appeal" by definition will have value, particularly monetary value. If people like it, they'll pay for it (unless it loses its appeal through neglect or modification). I disagree with the need for pedigree - look at the VW Beetle. Unquestionably a classic car but with the most humble of pedigrees.
Well, this thread was originally un-responded-to so I thought I'd comment to stir it up. You must've known that, by creating an area called "Classic SailBoats," this discussion on definition would someday have to occur (and probably will again). Can always count on enlightening discussion from this group, even if only tangentially related to boats...glad I found this board.
I didn't say that a classic HAS to have a "cult following." I think it has to have widespread appeal. I understand your point about Tanzers (though I know little about the boats), but having a devoted following among a few is not the same thing. Innumerable objects have that type of following, from boats to beanie babies.
Tim, I agree with nearly everything you wrote but have a couple thoughts. Regarding value, I would say that anything that has "widespread and enduring appeal" by definition will have value, particularly monetary value. If people like it, they'll pay for it (unless it loses its appeal through neglect or modification). I disagree with the need for pedigree - look at the VW Beetle. Unquestionably a classic car but with the most humble of pedigrees.
Well, this thread was originally un-responded-to so I thought I'd comment to stir it up. You must've known that, by creating an area called "Classic SailBoats," this discussion on definition would someday have to occur (and probably will again). Can always count on enlightening discussion from this group, even if only tangentially related to boats...glad I found this board.