Time to build boat shed #2

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Chris Campbell
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Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Hi all,

This will seem like a deja vu to some, but I'm about to build a new boat shed. The last one worked well, but having moved and left it behind, it needs to be replaced, and the time is just about here to start. I am more or less expecting to replicate the last one (Stimson bow shed) with a few tweaks, but figured I'd bounce some ideas around here before committing.

Lessons learned from the last shed include:
  • Don't build on knee walls, since they're not as stable as mother earth
  • Make it a little larger - 3' on either end isn't enough room for the accumulated clutter of a boat shop (at least not mine)
  • Possibly have some way to see out - it's very odd to be in a building that has no sound deadening without being able to see what you're hearing
  • Consider something more permanent than shrink-wrap, since this shed will likely see longer-term use
  • The 300+ bolts were probably overkill - the shed should go together just fine with screws at each vertical/horizontal connection
In the interests of keeping the thread picture-rich, here's the old shed, pre-and-post-wrap:
Image

Image

Now for some thoughts on this next shed. I could just build a 44' long, 22' wide shed with 12 22' bows on 4' centres going to the ground, cover it with shrink wrap, and that would be that.

But there are a few problems with this.
  • Stimson doesn't recommend doing bows of more than 20'.
  • The space I have to build in is an old road bed, and it's 20' wide without clearing more than I'd like to.
  • Still can't see out, and shrink wrap is at best a 4 year cover.
So what are the options?
  • Build a bow shed, but with stronger bows (1x4?), covered in polycarbonate sheets for windows and plywood for the rest.
  • Build a conventional shed with straight walls and a truss roof, sheathing in plywood and using polycarbonate sheets for windows.
  • Build a bow shed but with laminated bows, covered with plywood and polycarbonate.
  • Build a bow shed with 20' bows and have it be a little on the narrow side at deck height for scaffolding, covered in polycarbonate and plywood.
  • Something I haven't considered yet.
Random thoughts: I like the idea of laminated bows - they'd be lovely and strong, although they'd be more money and more work and getting horizontal and diagonal braces attached wouldn't be as easy as it was with the hollow bows. If I cover it with plywood, how do I protect the plywood? Traditional sheathing would be a major expense (shingles, clapboard, steel), paint wouldn't be all that durable, and would also be a bit sketchy looking - I'd like to make sure the shed doesn't detract from our property.

Perhaps the best bet is to build a shed with 20' bows like the last one and consider covering it differently down the road (when the plastic is nearing the end of it's useful life). Thinking about the distance between bows - 4' centres would work for most sheathings, as would 2' - 3' centres probably wouldn't. 4' centres seems kind of flimsy to me, especially for putting rigid (i.e. heavy) sheathing over...

Anyone have any thoughts they'd care to share?
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Hirilondë »

It seems you are now considering building a real building. In my town you would need a building permit for this and now be subject to building code. This would require structural footings, engineer approved design of the bows as they would now be called trusses, 24" centers as that is the max for plywood and a host of other details. When covered in shrink wrap you can call it a tent/temp shed, but with plywood it becomes an out building.

Polycarbonate sheets? Do you know what they cost? Seems awful extravagant for a boat shed. And how do you water proof the plywood seems and plywood to polycarbonate seems? And how do you keep the plywood from delaminating over time? On a real building you have roofing and siding. The building and maintenance of of this shed will rival the time you spend on the boat.

I would stick with the tent or build a real building, if in fact the zoning for your site would allow it.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Thanks for the thoughts, Dave, all good points.

As it turns out I'll have to get a permit for the structure no matter what it's sheathed in, since anything over 200 sq. ft. requires a permit here regardless of how it's built. That said, boat sheds (the inspector tells me) don't follow the same code as regular buildings since they're not considered inhabited, and if they fall down no one's too worried about the boat, it seems. As long as the builder is content (for the most part) the building is all right. I may of course learn more about this and find that it's not what I currently believe, we'll see.

Polycarbonate twinwall is actually pretty reasonable - around $73 per 4'x8' sheet: http://www.greenhouses-etc.net/glazing/ ... _clear.htm. It's not completely transparent, but definitely enough to let in some light and give me the illusion of seeing out as well.

My thought on waterproofing the seams was to build upside-down lapstrake style - overlapping the upper one over the lower one - and sealing the vertical seams with caulking and battens (a la board and batten). Keeping the plywood from breaking up isn't something I like the sound of, though, so I'd be thinking hard about other coverings. Clapboard would be my favourite, although it would add considerably to the cost (roughly 3x the price of plywood alone). Another factor is that whatever I use will be both roof and wall - and painted wood as a roof is not very durable. I don't much relish the thought of getting up there to paint once every few years - in fact I haven't even figured out how I would get up there - a wall which curves away from you as it goes up is hard to work on from a ladder!

With all this in mind I am going to cost out building a real building (with no floor) and see how much difference it would make. I like the idea of the gothic arch of a bow shed, and it's practical to have more floor space than air space for storing something tall and skinny like a boat with tools and supplies on the ground, but it may turn out that for a permanent solution it's got to be something else.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by onymous »

I'm certainly not constructing anything as elegant as your Stimson bow sheds -- I intend building a boat shed INSIDE an old tobacco barn with used billboard vinyl tarps. These are very thick (17mil,16oz sq yd), water-proof and UV-protected in large sizes (some are 50X70 or 3500 sq ft). These tarps have advertising on one side and are either plain white or black on the reverse side -- so I'll mount them with the plain side facing outward. This 3-ply pvc vinyl should also last very well outdoors.

The cost averages about 14 cents a square foot.

They can be welded together at the seams with HH-66 Vinyl Cement.

So, a 44x44 structure would require about 2000 sq ft costing about $300 and weighing about 225 lbs.
Double that for two layers with the advertising sandwiched towards the inside and not showing.

I realize this doesn't address your requirement for transparent panels.

Edit: Nevermind: I see this has been extensively discussed before - I should've checked first.. Sheesh.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Absolutely no harm done - thanks for bringing it up again. It's certainly got to be the best way to get covered cheaply - and you're right, using two with the advertising facing itself would work nicely. I'd still need to figure out how to get daylight in, but it shouldn't be any worse to waterproof around an opening in a tarp (properly battened) than anything else.

I'm still investigating, but the idea of cheap has great appeal, no question. Another friend last night suggested that building the wrapped bow shed now and covering it in later was a good idea - using the billboard tarp instead of shrink wrap would make it significantly more durable than regular shrink wrap, for nearly the same cost.

Thanks again!
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Figment »

Whatever you use to keep the weather out will last a lot longer (longevity seems to be prime concern here) if it's not spanning so far. I know that shorter spans means more bows means more labor and cost, but if you're looking to go years and years on the back end, you'll need to put in more on the front end.

With respect to the upside down lapstrake approach, I think you're working against the nature of the beast. If you work from the ground toward the ridge, you'll need to perforate whatever you're using to secure supports so that you can climb toward the ridge. I recognize that this is commonly done in "normal" roofing, but that's a much thicker skin.

With respect to vision outside, I suggest saving that accommodation for the end walls. Leaks in the end walls don't drip on the boat or your tools.

I miss my shed.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Hirilondë »

Chris Campbell wrote: That said, boat sheds (the inspector tells me) don't follow the same code as regular buildings since they're not considered inhabited, and if they fall down no one's too worried about the boat, it seems.
Residential building code varies slightly from state to state and town to town, but differences are not huge. In the US the theory is that people will enter buildings and use them for what ever they want. What their intended use was may not be their future use. And since people change their minds and even sell the property building code is designed for all eventualities. All buildings may contain people at some time during it's existence, not necessarily inhabiting, but working or what ever and is therefore subject to building code. Once it is built the inspector has no control over what people do.

It seems Canada is much less strict about these things.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Hirilondë »

Figment wrote: With respect to the upside down lapstrake approach, I think you're working against the nature of the beast. If you work from the ground toward the ridge, you'll need to perforate whatever you're using to secure supports so that you can climb toward the ridge. I recognize that this is commonly done in "normal" roofing, but that's a much thicker skin.
Roofers commonly use a staging bracket that mounts under the tab (flap) of the shingles already installed such that the penetration is covered after the bracket is removed. This process would not be possible at all installing plywood.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by todd gustafson »

Window idea.........How about a canopy like awning they have at the local Bistro...............Cut the window (any size or shape but round) out of roof, just so the edges could be glued to the frame.... than Apply a larger, much larger square or rectangle patch on the outside attaching it only to the top edge with batten to keep somewhat water and wind tight. attach another batten on bottom edge.The outside edge of the awning could have a thin metal/plastic/wood batten that could bend to the contour of building when closed....... have a pole on both sides to push out the ''awning'' for light, when not used the batten could be heavy enough to hold down awning....better yet drill holes in the frame and have the poles go through the holes....push out to open window.....add a pin to keep open, when closing remove pin, pull pole in (some kind of universal joint at end of pole that is attached to batten) so awning is all tight against building, bend pole at joint to lock as well as to keep out of way......... I think that would work rather nicely.


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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I'd bet you could extend the Stimson bows to get the 10% increase in size that you'd like. Use better lumber. Make the web blocks a little deeper (so that the truss is a bit deeper). Reduce the spacing. Take more care with splices and fastenings. As for fastenings, think it through carefully. Bolts and washers are a known engineering item; drywall screws are not. Bolt holes cause reliable known 'damage' to a member; the broken, misplaced, extra, deeply-driven screws do not.

As for coverings, buildings have to take 'live load' and 'dead load', as well as to have something left over for the unanticipated load. The lightest 'dead load' you could use is the fabric or plastic wrap. If the Stimson handbook gives you alternatives in structure for heavier coverings, you've got something to extrapolate; if not, they're betting on the lightest covering. In our part of the world, 'live load' is usually counted as 30psf of snow and so many (don't remember) psf for wind, with corrections added for sheltered areas that would collect more snow. You'll need to evaluate the potential for additional snow in your chosen location, as well as the local accepted 'live load'. You'll also need to evaluate the potential for unanticipated loads, say from an adjacent pine tree dropping its load of snow on your roof.

I think you can install sheet goods (plywood, plastic, etc.) as though they were shingles. Lap downwards and endwise just like shingles. No battens or goop on the end joints. I think that conventional 'roof jacks' could be emulated for the 4' exposure of such sheets. Ordinary roof jacks are hung on nails installed into the sheathing above the course of shingles; you unhook 'em and move them up a course and bung the nail down into the sheathing. You just have to make extra-ordinary roof jacks or modify a set of 'em.

I think you could roof the thing in 1/2" pressure-treated CDX plywood and get quite a few years out of it. Check out the various farmers' roofing products, the corrugated aluminum sheets with the special gasketed nails, 'Ondura' asphalt-impregnated sheets as sold by Lowes here in the US.

I don't think, by the way, that the Stimson bows are working as arches; I think they are trusses. If my gut is right, you could straighten the top portion of the bow so that flatter, stiffer corrugated roofing could work on, say, the middle third of the roof. The curved portion could be plastic or greenhouse panels, and the lower portion could be pt plywood. Plastic greenhouse panels are available in cellular sheets so that they are stiffer for the weight and insulative. And I doubt that Stimson is the only seller of home-built truss design sheds; seems to me I've seen similar designs in such exotic reference material as Mechanics Illustrated, etc.

Get a load of the dandy shed for Bluenose II! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g58NK7hk ... re=related

And the time lapse of the ship construction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2CNSHxgHXQ
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Thanks, all! Great advice.

I'm now looking into Clearspan buildings (the prefab stretched fabric shelters) to see if they have one that would suit better than another self-built one, and I'll report back.

My current best thinking on a self-built one is still a bow shed, somewhere in the middle of the extremes that I had thought of before, so:
  • 20' bows, 48' long, 2' centres, 25 bows per side.
  • Bottom 6-8' of south wall is polycarbonate (8' ideally, since they're 4' wide sheets and I don't want to cut - but 8' might be too much sun exposure in the summer - in winter it'll be great), same distance on E/N/W walls is solid with clapboard and paint, a few windows for visibility, but nothing so extensive as the large sheets on the south wall.
  • Top 12'-14' is a double layer of used billboard tarp, ratcheted tight like the Clearspan shelters to reduce buffeting (noise and wear).
On the bolt-reduction front, a 20' bow would normally have 11 through bolts + one more to tie it to the sill. I would plan on reducing that to 4 + 1 - one at each end and a third of the way through the arc, and the one to tie to the sill. The rest would be done with screws - ultimately all they really do is stop the top 1x3 from shifting relative to the bottom 1x3, and I'm quite certain that the deck screws will achieve the same goal quite nicely. I am really quite sick of those bolts, in case it's not obvious...

I'll let you all know what I find on the Clearspan front, and any further thoughts or refinements of this plan.

Thanks again!
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Figment »

I intended to make this comment in the last.... I really think you're going to miss the extra width at deck height afforded by the kneewalls. If your previous kneewalls were not stable enough, build better ones this time.

Doug is right, the Stimson bows are working as shallow trusses. Increasing the depth of the truss will increase the strength.
I think you are right as well, the bolts are probably overkill, particularly if you're building on 2' centers, and you could get away with bolting at the thirds as you suggest if you're also using a good dollop of construction adhesive in conjunction with those screws. You might also consider using the pan-head selftapping screws used with simpson connections.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Figment wrote:If your previous kneewalls were not stable enough, build better ones this time.
It's a good point, and one that my research into the Clearspan shelters has let me to as well. Some of their buildings rely on a "pony wall" to give them sufficient height - I should be able to do the same thing for my building. Combining the use of 20' bows with a 2' knee wall instead of the 4' one I built the last time around would make building a stiffer knee wall easier as well. A few posts buried in concrete each side should give sufficient stiffness, I think - the hassle with the last shed was in the need for internal bracing which got in the way - this time I'd like to be able to use all the available floor space without interruption.
Figment wrote:You might also consider using the pan-head selftapping screws used with simpson connections.
Pan head I understand - but what is a "simpson conection"? And why is pan head better for this?
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Figment »

Simpson connection... a.k.a. "hurricane clips" and "joist hangers". The stamped-metal doodads used to connect wooden framing members in accordance with current building codes.
Image
The pan head just holds things together, it doesn't try to split the wood apart like a bugle head or flat head.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Update:

It turns out that you do in fact need to get an engineer to approve the plans to get it permanently permitted - the "it's only a boat shed no need to worry about someone inside" mentality was only for a temporary permitted structure. Since I want to build this to last, and have no intention of taking it down again, I've engaged an engineer to do up the plans for me. It'll cost slightly more, but the bow sheds are so inexpensive to begin with that it will still be an amazingly cheap large, open building.

Here's what I'm going with in the end: 20x48', 20' bows on 2' centres, 3' knee wall supported by 6" concrete posts (sonotube) on 4' centres topped with a laminated beam (2 2x6's sandwiching a 2x8) for the bows to land on. Gable ends are stick built, and inset 2' from the ends of the roof, so the inside is 44' long and there is ventilation all the way around the roof where it meets the gable ends through the second to last bow. I'll cover the knee walls and gable ends with plywood and clapboard, and the next 4' of the south facing wall will be twinwall polycarbonate, for lighting and winter warming on sunny days. The rest of the roof will be two layers of billboard tarp, tightened down with ratchets or some other mechanical advantage to be sure that it stays tight. In the fullness of time I'll replace the tarp with more plywood and clapboard and probably a north-facing window for light higher up in the building, but for now to keep costs down and get it done faster I'll go with the tarp.

Can't wait to get started!
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by cantstopnow »

Chris, your last structure was visually pleasing as well as the functional aspects. The geometric patterns of the bows and the gothic reference in the form. It looked amazing for a temporary structure.

I am looking forward to pictures of the new one!

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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Engineering approval received - building permit in the works, should have it next week and break ground by the weekend, with any luck. I've altered another thing in my plans - the plastic roof is out and metal is in - plastic was going to cost nearly half of what metal will cost, and only last ~4-6 years, so it doesn't seem worth it.

Getting closer to being able to work on things again, finally!
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

I'm going to stop predicting schedules for things, there is always something that gets in the way! To make a long story short, my plan to use sonotubes for the shed's foundations didn't work. I got down a foot with the rented auger and hit bedrock, eight times. No trouble holding up the weight (practically no weight with a bow shed anyway), but no way it'd provide the lateral stability that I was looking for - I don't want to need bracing again.

Back to the drawing board, then - this time having decided (through discussions with a few local contractors) to go with a slab, and have a little less room up high since I'll lose my knee walls. I'll make the bows a little longer and put a little more bow in them - that should give me the extra shoulder room I need, and it will be really stable, bolted to the slab. It also means that I can seal it up against small furry visitors (a raccoon gave birth in the boat in the last shed!) and I'll have a space that I can really keep clean and organized.

It'll also cost a little more than planned, which always seems to happen, doesn't it?

I have to update the drawing and revisit the engineer, then will keep my fingers crossed for getting the slab in, er, soon. Note the lack of prediction for what soon means...

I will assuredly post photos when there is something to photograph, even if it isn't that exciting.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Quetzalsailor »

You could use spread footings, say, 1 meter square at intervals or a 50 cm wide strip footing, bearing on the rock, if it's only 30 cm down or so. Even if it were 60 cm, it would be a lot less concrete than the slab. You'd end up continuously trenching to the rock anyway if you were using a slab for a foundation. The trench would be the frost wall; that and perimeter wall, and perimeter under-slab insulation will tend to prevent the slab from heaving. And probably the insulation is required by the IBC, particularly if they thought you'd be ending up with a permanent, heated building.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

I'm working through these details now, but here's what I know so far:
  • Slabs don't necessarily need a frost wall. I don't know what makes one need it vs. not need it - when I was planning to attach a greenhouse to the house I needed one, for this shed I don't. If I ever determine why the difference I'll happily share it.
  • Any slab over 600 sq. ft. is supposed to be "engineered" - which means that an engineer needs to specify how it's built. Evidently that results in a thicker area around the perimeter with extra rebar in it, which adds to the cost, but even with that it's still slightly cheaper than a poured footing w/knee wall. The concrete guy I'm dealing with also believes that the engineered slabs are a wasted of money - it's a recent development and all the slabs he poured prior to their arrival on the scene are holding up just fine. We'll see.
  • The slab is only 4" thick, which means it's ~11 yards of concrete. The footings for a short wall would be 5 yards, and the short wall I spec'ed came out to more than 6 additional yards.
  • If I'm not going to get a concrete floor out of it, I might as well use the "yard blocks" from a concrete yard - they're 6' long and 2' wide by 2' tall (give or take) and cost $100, delivered and put in place. It would be just as functional, but not nearly so appealing or pleasant to work in (w/gravel floor vs. concrete) - and for resale (god forbid) a proper building on a slab will be more appealing, I think.
Phew - sorry for the diatribe. I guess what it comes down to is what my friend said about slab vs. not slab - "really the only problem with putting in a slab is that you'll lose time every time you enter the building as you congratulate yourself on having such a wonderful work space. Hopefully you can make up for the lost time in ease of keeping it clean and organized, though." I think it'll be just great!
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by One Way David »

Chris, this is an interesting discussion. Sorry to be late on this discussion, I always would lean toward a permenant structure, but thats me. You mentioned about only 3-4 years for the shrink wrap life. bcooke posted Fancy Simpson Shed here a while back. That fella took 7 years to complete his boat build and didn't mention recovering his. I have been watching the Clearspan road sheds (Clearspan structures on top of those concrete building block things) along the highway up here in NE Kansas and they have had the same cover on for 13 years and show no signs of deterioration (from inside the truck at 68 mph passing by).

You mentioned having extra room on the sides, but if you calculate carefully, you could use shelf brackets attached to the wall along the side for adjustable staging on the sides and then only have to build staging around the curvey parts.

I have seen some very nicely done metal buildings. Several homes that combine metal and brick on the siding. Brick will certainly bump the cost but metal is relatively economical, easy to use/assemble and some companies give you the engineer specs for the building permit with the package. They often have cathedral ceilings allowing height for deck work without wall height, and a nice place to hang a hoist to pull the engine.

There is a site on the web, garage journal, that has tons of different style, type construction and erectors.

Dave.
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by bcooke »

Just to clarify, I only used a modified Stimson shed for two years breaking it down each summer and I covered it with a heavy duty tarp that was pulled back weather permitting. I did use three bows as part of a hybrid cover for an additional year.

I like the bits Figment posted to tie the bows together and accept the ridgepole. My plywood gussets were a weak point and I wouldn't re-use my bows for an additional season. Erecting the structure every Fall stresses the gussets too much.

oh, and the boat isn't nearly done yet either. I have either time or money but never both at the same time. No rush. If I were to finish I would just start another one anyway ;-)
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One Way David
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by One Way David »

I hope I didn't misdirect anyone with my comment above. I mean't bcooke posted on this thread http://plasticclassicforum.com/viewtopi ... =10&t=3520 about this boat project that is not plastic or classic but a very nice shead http://members.shaw.ca/pgron/BoatShed.htm

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Chris Campbell
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Re: Time to build boat shed #2

Post by Chris Campbell »

Sorry to be slow to respond, I was out of town on business and kept pretty busy. I'm now back at home and the slab is finally poured, so it's time to get building!

My current intentions are well documented on my own site, so I won't delve into them in detail here, but here's the high-level:

Engineered slab as a foundation.
Short (1.5') knee wall built of 2x6 and through-bolted to the slab for stability.
Sill on top of knee wall to land the bows on.
20' bows, built from 1x4, 20' long, with 2x4 spacers.
Fully bolted, with 6" and 7" 3/8" carriage bolts.
Painted steel roof - the horizontals will go on the outside instead of the inside, diagonals will still be internal to the bows, and will be redundant once the steel roofing is on.
Front and rear gable ends stick-built, the rear gable end will have a balcony off of the second-story work area (at deck level with the boat), the front gable end will be mostly door, seldom opened.
Ventilation will come from gable vents at various levels, the man door through the large front doors, and the balcony door at the back. There may be a flap or two in the roof, but if it seems too hard to seal that up I won't bother.
There will be a translucent window low down on the south side where it is shaded by trees and almost vertical for sun-shedding, but will let in light. There may be a second translucent window higher up on the north side - I haven't decided on that yet.

I'm not doing anything on it this weekend - I'm hoping to have my smaller boat ready for the water by the end of the week, instead. I also don't have the 20' 1x4's yet - the lumber mill that's making them has been waiting on sufficiently long and knot-free trees to make them from. I'll get the knee wall under way before the bow materials are ready if I have to, but I don't want it to sit out in the weather for months unnecessarily.

That's about it for now - coming along, but decidedly slowly.

A couple of slab pictures, before and after the pour:
Reinforced footings:
Image

Ready for the pour:
Image

Slab in place, looks good to me:
Image
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