Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

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hriehl1
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Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

I decided against a full shelter, but am attracted to using electrical conduit to make a sturdy, reusable cover frame that will allow easy access to the interior and deck of the boat (where most of my work is required).

In my research, I've come across two firms making clamps for fabricating a framework; Kover Klamps (koverklampframes.com) and Framemaker (framemakerclamps.com).

1. Have you used either (or another) method for building a tarp frame from conduit, and were you happy with the cost, convenience and strength?

2. Do you recommend one or the other (or maybe another I have not found)?

Thanks
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Skipper599 »

Why in particular do you want to use electrical conduit? ... I built a 7' x 10' greenhouse this spring using irrigation tubing (comes in 20' lengths), connecting it together with available tees and crosses.
It comes in various sizes and strengths, I happened to use 1" Sched 40 ... tubing size will depend on how big a structure you wish to build. Mine is only a temporary thing to be dismantled, stored away for the winter months and reassembled again next spring.

I'm just suggesting irrigation pipe because, you may find it cheaper than electrical. As well, I don't believe crosses are available with electrical conduit (not sure of that) ... with irrigation piping, there's a variety of "joiner" pieces available, eg: Y's, Crosses, Tees etc. ... conduit uses Junction Boxes ... of course, maybe that suits you better if you wish to run cable for lighting.
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
hriehl1
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

I am not committed to conduit... I considered PVC but dismissed it (perhaps in ignorance) because:
1. I could not find 4-way cross fittings at Home Depot (a quick websearch shows they are available)
2. Bends require fittings (45, 30 degree) which means a LOT of smaller individual pieces. I also worry those fittings can chafe the tarp more than the continuous. gentler bend that I'd get with conduit.
3. Just pressing pipe into fittings without glue seems risky strength-wise, yet glueing makes permanently bulky, difficult to store sub-assemblies
4. I worried PVC may not stand up as well to a New Hampshire winter.

However, I am attracted to PVC's price and ease of use. Skipper (or anyone else), can you offer comments to confirm or dispel my stated concerns with PVC? My intent is a frame with legs at the rail providing perhaps 40" "crawling room" down the centerline, very similar to what one sees on the websites of the two firms I mentioned.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Tim »

Lightweight PVC will not hold up well (i.e. at all) to winter's fury and snow loads. You can discount that immediately.

I'm not sure that thin-wall metal conduit would be strong enough either, but I've never used it. But that stuff bends easily and I'd not use it myself. It's not a structural material and requires support over any sort of span in order to hold the potential weight of snow, water, or ice. And personally, I'd hate working with fussy little fittings I had to buy to hold it together.

Many years ago, I built a boatcover frame for a 25' boat I had using 1-1/2" PVC drain pipe and fittings. I glued half the joints (i.e. glue the fitting onto one piece of pipe only) and taped the rest. It was OK, but only OK; the natural movement of the cover and frame in the wind tended to loosen the non-glued joints, but lots of tape held it together, though it took a collapse or two for me to truly work out how to put it together. It's really not a technique I'd recommend, and I haven't built a frame that way since. The ridge should be high to provide a good angle for snow to slide off since even 1-1/2" sch. 40 thick-wall pipe isn't very strong under the weight.

Take the time to build something sturdy that will last you without needing to rebuild it every time it snows or blows. For what you're proposing, I'd use wood--2x4s and strapping. To give you good access to the decks when covered, you could consider running 2x4s all the way to the ground around the gunwale, and use these to support whatever framework you need abovedecks. Something like a 10' or 12' length ought to get the tops of these supports high enough off your gunwale to allow reasonable height at the deck edge for access, but use whatever length you need to give you the access you want.

This would be strong and secure and as easy to build as anything, and inexpensive and reusable. Label each piece and where it lands on the ridge or wherever, and use drywall screws to hold it all together for ease of construction and removal/re-use. Pad the ridge and any chafe points. Use a good tarp of your choosing and tie it securely. Make sure the ridge angle is steep so the thing sheds snow.

Collapsing tarp frames are a real annoyance. Build it strong and sturdy the first time, even if it takes longer. The key to a project in the frozen north is a reasonable shelter. Don't skimp it. You don't want to be out there rebuilding the thing in January while trying to dig a foot of snow out of your partially-finished cabin.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I agree with Tim's assessment of PVC pipe. One advantage to the stuff that has as yet gone unmentioned is that you can heat the stuff, say, with a heat gun, and bend the shapes and turns that you want.

As for metal electrical conduit, get some in an adequate, larger dia. It's just thinwall tubing. Buy the tubing bender for the size required: the radiused casting with a great long handle. True that you cannot get crossings, probably not even tees. Make those joins with U-bolts; you'd have to invent a saddle to cut down on the kinking.

My real reason for chiming in is that I'd like a better, longer-lived covering than even 'heavy duty' tarps. What other choices are there? I've just got a large stack of Red Oak and Walnut lumber and need a way to cover it outside that's less expensive than the wood is.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Figment »

I use hose clamps at the crossings. They're cheap and quick.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Chris Campbell »

I've built two tarp frames, and broken two - although not both of the ones that I built. My last boat came with a wooden support system and a heavy-ish silver/black tarp when I bought her. She was put away that first winter in an unprotected place, and the first good storm destroyed the tarp and the frame. I ended up limping through that winter with another tarp laid over the repaired frame, but determined to make a better frame the next year. The next year I built a frame out of 1-1/2" PVC (black drain pipe), which I didn't glue together (due to the problem of not being able to take it apart). It collapsed in the first snowfall. I then put some smaller plastic pipes inside the larger ones to strengthen it and prevent the diagonal pieces from falling off of the verticals (verticals were by the stanchions). That lasted through one storm and collapsed in the second one. Then I glued it, and it survived for the rest of the winter, but damaged the deck paint where it touched, and had to be destroyed since it was too big to transport - and I was annoyed at it for damaging the deck! The last one was out of electrical conduit (PMT? the metal stuff) and construction piping clamps I found online (they were all T's, so I had two clamps for each pair of support legs). It was easy to build, easy to take down, and was very strong. I had a 38' boat and used 9 pairs of legs - I think I could have stood on the ridgepole if I had better balance. I bought little rubber feet (like those that go on crutches, etc.) to protect the deck - and just to be really certain also put plastic pipe enders inside of those. I then shrink-wrapped over the frame, leaving an inch or so at the gunwale for ventilation - it really worked well. I made my own wooden door rather than buying a shrink-wrap door - that was a mistake, the door wasn't very nice (of course that's my fault).

That's my two cents, based on my experience, take it for what it's worth!

Of course the ideal is to build a shed...
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Skipper599 »

Here's a few pics of a shelter I built many years ago. Yes, it's just a tarp-cover to shelter from the elements. Open at both ends, the tarp comes down to cap-rail level at the sides. It's still protecting the boat year round.

Admittedly we do not get as much bad weather many of you experience on the east side and other parts of the USA and Canada but, occasionally, we will get a tough winter here in the NW and I've seen over a foot of wet snow on this structure a number of times some winters.

I made up the 1x4 arch frames with the aid of a jig for uniformity cutting all the rebates for the 1 x 2 stringers prior to assembly. They are nailed and glued together at the joins using 1/4" plywood plates on each side. The frames are at 24" spacing. This hip-roof is supported on 8'6" 2x4 posts that make up the lower framework with no diagonal bracing on the sides. Actually, the whole structure is mounted on 3" casters allowing me to move it out of the way whenever necessary.

This shelter is located on the north side of my #2 garage (workshop), There's a protective hedge along the west side and the south end is partially protected by the garage. There is a glass panel in the sun-deck railing preventing most wind from that direction. The prevailing winds come from SW and around to the NW. Rarely do we get wind from N, E. or SE. You'll notice the tarp is only laced down with "lineman's nylon pull cord". It has never come undone or broken, even in the occasional gales we have here.

I'm hoping splash day will occur in the spring of 2011 ... I will then dismantle it for scrap or firewood but, I shall sell the 12 y.o. tarp. It is still in very good condition and cleans up well with a little detergent wash every spring.

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I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
hriehl1
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Thanks for your replies, though my need is only for a winter cover that will permit access to the interior, not a full shelter. And to serve as a reusable winter cover frame for years to come. That's why I am more attracted to conduit & clamps... easier reusability.

Chris Campbell, can you elaborate on those T clamps.... where how you found them. If their price is right, all Ts can work.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Chris Campbell »

They were Kee Klamps: http://www.hooverfence.com/pipe-fitting ... atalog.htm. I think they were probably overkill for the project - the Kover Klamps (what is it with these K's?) or Framemaker would probably be just as good and possibly cheaper. The Kee Klamps seemed a bit pricey to me.

I looked at the frames that come with Fairclough covers and some other professionally made ones - and they were always 1" aluminum tube rather than the 3/4" EMT I used. Lighter, and at least as strong - but not as easy to find, I guess. Not sure about cost.

I don't have any pictures of Weatherbird with her cover on or I'd post it - sorry!
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by KITTIEanME »

Hello, hriehl1 - You may have already found this in "practical sailor" if not this may be a frame cover you are interested in. Its in Practical Sailor-- Features-- listed under "snug in a boatyard". Just my 2 cents. TOM
hriehl1
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

KITTIEanME...

I had seen that some months ago but forgot about it. I took another, closer look and ideas in there should reduce the cost of material I need by $150 or so. Many Thanks.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by KITTIEanME »

Glad to help hriehl1 . TOM
hriehl1
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Just thought I'd give an update. I did go the Kover Klamp route (purchased at Defender for a bit less than KK's own website). Two of us, with no prior experience, fashioned a 6-rib frame for my Hinterhoeller 28 for about $175 in KK hardware and another $75 in 3/4-inch EMT conduit. It took us around 4 hours. I'll be covering it with a premium-grade Poly cover this weekend. I worry about the cover more than the frame.

Certainly, the final verdict on the frame's integrity and durability will take a few years to determine. But is seems very sturdy and should be disassembled and reassembled in more like 90 minutes in springs and falls to come.

My helper, who spends $600 every year to shrinkwrap his C&C 39, was sufficiently impressed with the (apparent) strength of the framing that he asked if I'd help him build his next year.

This is not a total endorsement, but my first impression of the frame is very positive.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Thought I'd post a photo before putting the cover on.

Used EMT conduit and Kover Klamp hardware for the ridgepole, 2 longitudinals at the outside bend of the legs, 5 arching legs and 4 vertical support posts. They all meet where you see carpet pieces zip-tied to the joints. I used old 1x3 slats for the roof ribs, each opposing pair of ribs attached with rope to sling over the ridgepole and then doube-fastened to the outside longitudinals with zip-ties. They are there to avoid rain pooling and to support snow loads.

First rain and 30-40 MPH winds last night held up fine.... only 5 more months to go.

I made two mistakes I may correct next year. I built the 5 arching legs to go over the ridgepole, which caused 5 hardspots for the cover. Legs-under would make the ridgepole run where the cover rests more contiguous. I also bent the arching legs at the apex right at the ridgepole, making the Kover Klamp junction less-than-fair because the leg had some bend in it where the clamp attached. Next time I would make two half-sized bends in the legs on either side of the ridgepole but leave the rib un-bent where it intersects with the ridgepole.
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hriehl1
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by hriehl1 »

Springtime follow-up. This arrangement held up VERY well through a tough winter. I built it with ample clearance over the deck so that I had access to the deck and interior through the winter. I was careful to tie carpet pieces over every hardpoint and the tarp appears it will go another several winters.

I am very satisfied and would recommend an electrical conduit frame to anyone considering same.
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Re: Kover Klamps -vs- Framemaker ??

Post by Rachel »

So nice to hear follow-up. Sounds like it was (and will be) a great cover.
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