Shelter question

This is the place for information on various types of permanent and temporary boat shops and other project shelters.
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jeffwagnpete
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Shelter question

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Well, I am reading these discussions about shelters. We had winds that were clocked 65 to 75 miles per hour in this area for 2 days. This tarp held wind speeds up to 35 in the past, it was why I stripped the boat of everything and even the rotted out core and I even started glassing and adding new core but was not finished, but last week the wind completely tore off the tarp, leaving everything exposed to the weather. It rained like buckets last week and my boat had 3 feet of water in it. It took a couple of months to dry the boat out and it was the reason, (I thought) why I left an opening on the bottom to dry out. I am devastated by this and I can't seem to figure this out. I need to do something. I will never use a tarp again. How about canvas? I saw the shrink wrap idea by you Tim. Winds on this farm can reach 75 miles an hour and reek havock on my project as it did last week. I don't have another downer left in me, this was too devastating to me and a financial mess now. Any suggestions, I have one more burst of energy to get this shelter right and thats it. Any suggestions? I might have to spend some money? I cant build a permanent building because it is not my land and then I would have to deal with permits and it would be just too costly. I would have to leave the frame up, but I need new fabric material that can withstand high winds here in the plains of Minnesota.
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Rachel
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Rachel »

Jeff,

I'll take a stab at this. I'm not very qualified, but then maybe someone more qualified will chime in to correct me :D

I'm not sure any blue tarp will reliably withstand the winds you had. That's a lot of wind, especially if you are out in the open.

Here are some thoughts:

I'm not sure I'm seeing the proportions on your shelter properly because of the angle of the photo, but it looks like it has a roof with a lot of horizontal surface and high sides, which I would think would make it more prone to damage by getting wind under it. I'm not sure it's the best shape anyway, because snow won't be shed (does water pool on it?). It seems like maybe keeping the wind from getting underneath it would help, but then you'd still have the latter problem.

If you're going to build something new, check out the Stimson shed (there are threads here on it). It's shaped like a gothic arch, so very tall and pretty narrow. The plastic roof/walls come down right to the ground. I think if you search "stimson" you'll find some threads because people here have built them. Even if you don't build one, you'll probably pick up a few good ideas.

Also, for some more ideas, Tim built a temporary winter shelter when he was rebuilding Glissando, and he's documented it here:

http://www.triton381.com/projects/resto ... shed1.html

Also, Catamount built a temporary, economical shelter that might give you some ideas:

http://plasticclassicforum.com/viewtopi ... =10&t=1941

I hope this helps. I think a good shed would be worth your time/effort/money if there's any way you can swing it, since you've got a full-scale boat project going on.

Rachel
Eric
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Eric »

It is amazing how much lift is generated on any structure sitting on the ground as air flows over it. Everything wants to be an airplane!

The experience of building a working model plane of balsa wood, tissue paper and glue can be useful when designing structures. The only differences between that and a boat shelter is the scale and that we usually want the latter to stay on the ground.

The better quality green and black or silver tarps hold up pretty well--skip the cheaper blue ones, but, be sure to figure out some system of anchoring the structure to the ground. Good luck and don't be discouraged. Organizing the site and similar yak shaving activities pay quick dividends in projects like yours.

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MikeD
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Re: Shelter question

Post by MikeD »

Jeff, I'm guessing that you don't have too many decent boat working days left in Minnesota at this point. How about getting a good tarp, as Eric said - 20x30 is a good fit for our boats, and wrap the boat up tightly when you're not working on it, i.e.reduce the windage as much as possible and protect your hard work, then unwrap it and tie it up to your shelter on your work days. It'll take a chunk of time out of working on it to wrap/unwrap, and it is a pain, but it may be a cost effective solution for you at this point.
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Capn_Tom »

If you plan to stick with your current structure but want to change the cover you might consider a recycled billboard tarp. http://www.billboardtarps.com They are much heavier than normal tarps so they do not blow around as much (though 70 mph winds are going to be a challenge). They also don't deflect as much so they shed water easier. The prices are low but the shipping is high due to weight. They're located in Minneapolis which might work for you.
The board does not cut itself short!
jeffwagnpete
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Re: Shelter question

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Thanks for your replies (Rachel, Eric. Mike, Capt Tom), it's really nice of you guys to reply back and give me advice, I absolutely appreciate that. The billboard tarp idea is brilliant. I went to a Menards (like a home depot store but their mainly out of the MIdwest) and they sell the same stuff for $80.00 for a 12 x 24, but I went to that website and it's a heck of a lot cheaper to get it from them. It's definately the way to go. Rachel, yea, I was too quick to put up a shelter and didn't take the time to really plan the design, I just wanted to get started on rebuilding the boat, guess that was a mistake, but oh well, I learned the hard way. That stinson idea is brilliant too, I read some forums about those. I wish I would of known about this forum before hand. Eric and Capt Tom, yea the winter is season has come too quick here, were expecting snow this Saturday and Sunday. I spent 3 hours covering my boat directly on Saturday, definately time consuming and tough to do alone, especially when the winds blows it right back to the ground, very frustrating. For me, the show still goes on in the winter, I plan to keep working on it in the winter, plenty to do, like grinding and sanding, good time of year to do as well, wont sweat or loose weight as much. Thanks again fella sailors. Got to go and get me some tarp now, and keep on!!
georgefmys
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Re: Shelter question

Post by georgefmys »

Sorry you had to learn about tarps the hard way...dont give up on the shrinkwrap idea.It's easy to do,wont really cost you that much and tou can do it ONCE, get excellent illumination for working,good solar heating ,excellent snow shedding, and no flapping and banging as wind whips down the plains. I have covered structures of all shapes and sizes-your small shed can be done in half-day and last for years if you need it to!
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Rachel
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Rachel »

George has a good point about the solar. I had a friend with a Stimson type shed in northern Minnesota. He had the clear-ish plastic on it for a cover and it was very pleasantly warm even in mid-winter. Especially up on the boat (vs. on the ground).

Rachel
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Re: Shelter question

Post by jhenson »

Jeff,

I’ve been working under an awning for about five years on two different frames (one commercially made and one homemade). I have had a couple of dramatic failures during high winds. A couple of things became apparent from these failures.

-The tarp failures occurred from the grommet tearing away from the material. Once the grommet gives way, the tarp flails wildly until the material is completely destroyed.

-Once the tarp starts to deteriorate (due to UV damage), enough that small leaks appear, the strength of the tarp decreases rapidly.

Therefore:

-I buy tarps labeled “Ultimate Tarp” from an eBay supplier. They last about 2 years in the Virginia climate (blue tarps only last about 6 months here). They have very strong pvc corner grommets.

-I attach the tarps with bungee cords to the grommets. I have found out the grommets rarely fail if the force of wind or snow is dampened by the elasticity of the bungees

-The more attachment points, the more the forces are distributed around the edge of the tarp. Thus, one grommet is less likely to fail. I use about 30 bungee cords anchored in all directions.

-I use pipe insulation foam stapled at the “hot” spots of the frame to diminish abrasion.

-The steeper the pitch of the awning roof, the less lift from wind.

-A tarp that is oversize relative to the frame seems to reduce lift because the overhanging material make for a less efficient airfoil shape.

-As I replace an ageing tarp, I leave the old tarp under it. This helps with abrasion, and ads a little strength.

Since making these changes, I have been had much better success with my tarps. I hope this helps.

Joe
bigd14
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Re: Shelter question

Post by bigd14 »

You can also run a small diameter line through all the grommets (half hitch through each grommet) and then anchor your bungies to this line. That way the force of each bungie is distributed over several grommets. I heard of this from other folks in the yard here who have successfully withstood high wind events.
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barrybrown
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Re: Shelter question

Post by barrybrown »

Jeff;
I have a shed that has stood for just over 20 years, I just replaced the tarp for the 2nd time an average of about 7 years. I use white poly 12/14 mil thick, use white because it will reflect the heat but allow you to have good visibility to work. The key to longevity is to keep the tarp from moving, forget the grommets, the best shape for your building is with a gambrel roof second best is an A-frame roof with a full length ridge. If you fasten one side of the tarp between two pieces of wood (I use 2x4 on the inside and 1x4 on the outside)
then stretch tight before fastening the other side. It also helps to cover any parts of the structure where there may be friction such as the ridge with canvas or felt. Admittedly I don't have the kind of wind that you have but wind is more of a reason to hold the tarp firmly. Eventually the sun will ruin the tarp.

Barry
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Hulukupu »

Jeff,
My experiences jibe with MikeD above and work very well. The method was probably developed by someone else on this forum: Suport a ridge poll at the mast step and pulpits (in my case it is the mast), drape 1X4s tied at the ridge and cut to reach the life lines (if in place), then cover with a 20X30 tarp. Secure the tarp around the hull with line (and tucking it into a couple of the boat stand pads works well). The cover can ventilate fore and aft and is quick to remove or shove aside when you want to work on the boat.
It does hold up to winter storms and my boat has always been bone dry underneath.
You'll need something more roomy when it comes time to paint.
David
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Re: Shelter question

Post by One Way David »

Booo on tarps except for very short term. Ditto on bungies (many). The recycled vinyl bill board material is good. I stumbled onto some circus tent material being recycled about 18 years ago and am still using it. If you use the vinyl on a wood frame, I'd use the plastic cap roofing nails to anchor it. If you enclose the sides (if you didn't before) you will reduce the lift effect. Check out the Clearspan structures. They will withstand the wind forces you have and are relatively cheap and temporary, yet last 10-15 years. Dave.
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jeffwagnpete
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Re: Shelter question

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Right on!

Well, I bought the billboard vinyl, lucky for me they were located in SE Minneapolis, went to go pick them up and got three 14x48 and one 12x36 and some vinyl cement, at a price crazy cheap, it was very painfull putting those up, but did it in 2 days. After I was completely done, the owner of the land came by and said that I could work on my boat in one of the pull barns and use one side of the barn, he spent 3 days cleaning the area for me and now I have a humongous inside area to do all my work. WOW! I was there today to inspect and boy, it will be nice to go inside. Moving day is this Wednesday in the a.m. Got the hydraulic trailor on hold from Hoopers boat yard. Can't wait to get back to work on my boat project, I've been feeling down not being able to work on it. So, I needed this break! Thanks everyone fo ryour ideas and encouragement!
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Rachel
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Rachel »

Wow, that's sweet! Too bad you'd already re-tarped the shelter, but still, who could complain?

Also neat that Hooper's rents out their hydraulic trailer (or is it that they are coming to do the move?)

I bet you'll be able to crank on the project now :)

Rachel

PS: You may already have this in mind, but since you're doing bulkheads and etc., I think it will pay great dividends if you take the time to make sure the boat is level both fore-and-aft and athwartships as part of the move.
jeffwagnpete
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Re: Shelter question

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Hey Rachel

Yea, it was kind of a bummer to find out after I put the tarp up, but I took it as a loss and I am totally ready to move inside. The owner of the land respects my project and loves the determination I have to do this. So, he insisted that I move inside. The P.S. statement about leveling the boat. Do I need to just make sure that the gound is level or do I need to do something inside the boat to make it level, cause yea, the main bulkhead is gone and I have braces keeping it steady in place. Hoopers Yacht is coming with the trailor to move it. They have been very helpful with me in my project. He comes out alot to check the status of my work and admires my determination.

Jeff
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Rachel
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Rachel »

I was meaning to get the boat level with reality regardless of the ground (in both directions). That way, when you are doing things like trying to make bulkheads plumb and level, or marking the waterline, or whatever, you will be able to use a tool such as a bubble level - and have it mean something.

It probably seems like too nit-picky a detail now, but I think it will pay dividends as you go along with the refit.

Rachel
jeffwagnpete
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Re: Shelter question

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Rachel,

Ok, thanks for the reminder, I forgot about that, I will make sure of that.

Jeff
jeffwagnpete
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Re: Shelter question

Post by jeffwagnpete »

Boat safely inside now; however, due to heavy rain we had for 2 days, and extreme soft and muddy ground, the hydraulic trailor and the diesel 6 wheel truck and my boat got stuck in the mud. I couldn't believe it, my boat stuck on a hydraulic trailor 2 feet in the mud. Luckily, Dave the concrete man, was thankfully there, as well with his heavy machinery, he rents another pull barn on the land and specializes in unique concrete work, we used his earth mover to pull the truck, the trailor and my boat out at the same time, it was amazing, mud flying everywhere, I also jumped into the bobcat and helped out to, to keep the boat stabilized, so it wouldn't tip or whatever else. It was kind of fun, but a very stressfull time, but we finally got it into the pull barn. We all gathered after the aftermath and were like dang, "what just happend." We pulled together and made it happen. So, Dave, was the man of the day yesterday. I asked Dave if he wanted some money, he said, "nope, I am just glad to be somehow apart of your dream." Great man he is!! I owe him dearly! I have goosebumbs now and I am thankful for the people my higher power has brought into my life these days because of a sailboat! Saying this tearfully!

Jeff
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Tim
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Re: Shelter question

Post by Tim »

If anything screams out for photos, it's boats and trucks stuck in the mud.
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One Way David
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Re: Shelter question

Post by One Way David »

Who on this site would contradict Tim, yeah pictures. But I have a previously related question. How does one level/true/plumb a boat on jack stands? I would use a plumb line sited to the rudder and keel. To heck with the deck which may or may not have been attached to the hull perpendicular at lay up. Doesn't the keel and rudder determine the lay of the boat (my layman's terms) in the water?
BTW I can sympathize with you on the mud. This Kansas farm boy has lots of mud. PM me if you want to unload the vinyl.
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