Bilge Keel Stringers, Sole, and other related items...

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:16 pm

I am just a day away from finally getting down to my cabin sole on my Islander Excalibur. This boat is a fin keel design with the lead glassed into the bottom of the keel. The sole and keel stringers, which support the port-starboard movement of the keel had been replaced by the Previous owner and done very poorly and were not marine grade, nor sealed in epoxy. After 2 years of sitting with rain water in the bilge these stringers and part of the sole checked greatly and are soaked throughout.

Now this isn't really as big a task as it seems, given that all of the fixtures save the compression bulkheads are removed, and complete access to the sole is now easy.

Here are my questions:

Should I spring for plastic starboard for the keel stringers? or is the high grade Meranti marine ply sufficient? of course I'll epoxy coat it.. but this stuff has the potential to be quite damp since it sits in the bilge. I've never used starboard for any structural work... how well does it glass tab in?

I want to use the Teak/Holly ply for the sole. The original sole in the boat was just painted okume with a carpet layover. When you guys replace soles with exotic decorative woods like the teak and holly combos how do you tab in the sole without having the glass visible on the sides and detracting from the visual appeal? All of my tabbing that I've done has been structural, then covered with non structural decorative ply. Should I lay in a sub-sole of Meranti? Then put the teak/holly over that?

I'm planning on building in small wine/booze bottle storage into the bilge. My bilge area is really deep with the fin keel and should afford plenty of space for this. Has anyone done this and have suggestions or ideas?

Is the Interlux BilgeKote product alone sufficient for coating the interior of the bilge? I know these older boats can absorb water in from the inside out when untreated. Should I barrier coat the inside of the bilge prior to coating with the BilgeKote product?

I know Tim's off on vacation.. but anyone else care to comment?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:57 pm

I'll take a crack at it...

"Starboard" for bilge work: I don't know how well this stuff takes to glass and epoxy, so I probably shouldn't comment, but I can't resist. Properly sealed wood (or plywood) has been proven to last decades, even in bilges. Starboard seems like an unnecessarily reinvented wheel in this application, but I'm a bit of a purist.

Sole: I don't think I've ever seen teak-and-holly plywood thick enough to act as a sole on its own. Usually it's in the 1/4"-3/8" range, fastened to a thicker structural sole as you said. If you find t&h ply of sufficient thickness, you could avoid the visible tabbing issue by screwing it down to a series of cleats and beams that you've tabbed in beneath, and then bung over the screws. A long-view perk of this method would be that you could remove and replace this sole in the future without the use of a sawzall.

Booze Bilge: I don't have anything meaningful to add, but I really look forward to seeing whatever you come up with!

Barrier coating the bilge seems like overkill to me, but that's just my gut reaction, not a particularly well-informed opinion. I must admit, though, that I can see where you're coming from. If I were standing in a naked empty hull, I'd be inclined to seal and coat everything in sight while the access was easy.

How'd I do?

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:14 pm

Nice actually :)

Ok..

so Starboard is overkill for bilge stringers IYO.. didn't want to drop the money anyway...

I haven't found the teak holly ply yet, so was kinda waiting on this. I'll just go with thick oukum, probably the 5/4 if I can find it.

The bilge wine rack will be ad-hoc once I figure out the stringers. I'll definitely post pics.

And as far as the barrier coat, This will be my one and only time to access the complete bilge area, and I'm into overkill when it comes to waterproofing and sealing. Plus I think I have enough West Systems barrier coat additive left over from the hull work to complete it.

I'm like you, when I have complete access to an area I'm all about sealing everything in sight.

David · Post by **David** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

Not sure what kind of tensile strength the stuff has or how epoxy would adhere to it. However, I would suggest;
A. Ecapsulating marine plywood,
B. Solid teak or Ipe
C. Fiberglass planks from McMaster (www.mcmaster.com page 3341 of their catalog)

David

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:29 pm

well I pulled up the old sole and stringers today. It amazes me sometimes what I find done to this boat. I knew that the sole had been replaced (and poorly done at that) but I had no idea that the slightly rotted stringers were also part of a renovation the previous owner apparently attempted a few years back.

I guess I should mention that When I purchased this tub it had been sitting in a farmers field and had been for about 3 years. It was covered with a tarp, but the tarp had a tear at the cockpit and water worked it's way from the unconnected scuppers into the bilge. guessing by the rot the water probably sat about 1" over the sole usually.

The stringers were made with ABX ply, and not even sealed with epoxy or paint. The tabbing was so poor that I could cut the single biax tab out with a utility knife. No wonder the keel was wobbling a bit. There were places in the stringers with up to 1/2" unfilled gap between the stringer and keel.

Anyway.. I pulled the stringers, made templates of them noting the places with gaps, and jammed them back in the old tabbing slots (the previous work had left about 1/4" of tabbing up).

Tonight I cut new stringers from my one sheet of meranti I have, coated them with the first coat of epoxy and hung them to dry. (I really wish I could find this stuff locally and not have to order it lol)

If I can get to the boat tomorrow I'll be sanding down all the previous tabbing edges and give the bilge a once over with the sander as a scuff for the BilgeKote. Hopefully the stringers will be in this weekend, then the sole The next.

Tim, traveling New Mexico · Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:32 pm

This is Tim, traveling in New Mexico, with a wireless connection for the night...would you believe that I can't remember my password for the forum?

Forget Starboard for this kind of structural work. Epoxy and fiberglass will not stick to it. It's not meant for this kind of work, and there are better choices--like plywood, and many of the structural foams (or even basic foam, as I used in the Daysailor for the floors).

THe other responses here cover the answers pretty well. I don't have the time for my usual long responses here, but I'll be back in a couple weeks, for what it's worth.

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:34 pm

Well I just got back from a holiday to Amsterdam, so the work starts in earnest this week.

I did make the new stringers, and coated them with 3 coats of unthickened epoxy. They're made from the last bit of my Meranti ply that I had ordered online and fortunately was the same thickness as the previous ones. Although I did double up the midship stringer to use it as a joint for the sole I'm putting in.

I've got the old tabbing sanded down as well.

Thursday I'll drop in the new stringers with some 5200, then start tabbing over the weekend.

I finally found a shop in MD, about two hours away, that carries Meranti marine ply, and also has some great deals on teak ply, teak decking, and teak and holly ply for my sole.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:51 pm

Thursday I'll drop in the new stringers with some 5200

I'll show my ignorance here. Why use 5200 and not thickened epoxy?

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:17 am

well I'm going to glass them in. But the initial set for the stringers will be done with 5200. I think it will hold in better for the initial set, it's easier to work with on opposing joints like this, and will fill in the air gaps underneath.

I guess I've just always used 5200 for the initial bond on any structural member installation. It's probably just personal preference.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:42 pm

5200 also has the convenience of the caulking-gun method of dispensation. I'm told that there used to be a source for empty caulking tubes that you could load with thickened epoxy, but I've never seen them.

Our Benevolent Host has in the past mentioned the use of hot glue for stay put 'til I can 'glass ya down purposes.
To my chagrin, I read that AFTER I'd performed my bulkhead replacement. I spent a good minute or two bashing my head into the desk after reading.

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:48 pm

My local West Marine carries the empty disposable caulking tubes that you can fill with epoxy but I've had mixed results with them. At 4$ a pop they are a bit pricey too.

You have to make some really thick epoxy and even then it's a messy adventure.

The hot glue gun seems like a winner, although I still think I'll stick to the 5200. That stuff is simply the most durable long lived and treacherous adhesive out there lol.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:05 pm

Hi. I've used the hot glue method and highly recommend it. If the part I'm gluing is on an angle or overhead, etc., there is no need to figure out ways of bracing it in place while glue or epoxy sets -- I just hold it in place for about 30 seconds while the hot glue cools down. After another few minutes of cooling, I proceed to put in a fillet and start glassing. Works great.

LastMango · Post by **LastMango** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:05 pm

I guess my concern is that the keel stringers are super critical when it comes to the structural integrity of the boat. I'd be worried that the hot glue method in this instance would leave air pockets, and seperate under extreme stress. Not like the 5200 wouldn't under really extreme stress, but when it comes to this I just have more faith in the 5200. For other stuff the hot-glue method seems good though.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:30 pm

I agree. I think I'd also be reluctant to rely on any adhesive under extreme stress. The bond will only be as good as the thin layer of wood it adheres to on the stringer's edge. Under extreme stress I'd expect that layer of the wood to break off no matter what you glue it with. I assume from your earlier posts you are planning to rely on a fiberglass laminate over the stringers as well as any mechanical fasteners specified for the strength. Be that as it may, I would use thickened epoxy as my adhesive rather than a high-strength flexible sealant.

BTW, the stringers that I've made using the hot glue method were to stiffen the hull in non-critical areas to prevent oil canning. I used hot glue to tack half circles of cardboard tubing onto the hull. Those tubes became molds which I then glassed over. If you are using any sort of mold to build a fiberglass stringer, tacking it in place with hot glue is great. It worked very well for me because the stringers were along the side of the hull and gravity was working against me.

Paul Esterle · Post by **Paul Esterle** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:47 am

I'm coming in late on this one. I see that Starboard was ruled out. Good, nothing sticks to it, you can't tab it in place.

I would suggest laying down a subfloor of plywood or MDO and tabbing that in place. Follow up with 1/4" teak-n-holly plywood. Did that on a 1974 Columbia 34 Mk II and it turned out fine.

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