inspection of chainplates

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comet
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inspection of chainplates

Post by comet »

I am new to fiberglass. My other sailboats have been wood, small, and cheap to fix. My new boat falls into the category discussed on this forum I think. It's a 1973 Seafarer 26.

My question is how can I inspect the chainplates if they are under the deck and behind the interior liner? Is it really something I should view as worth cutting into the liner for?

thanks for your help.

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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Surveyor »

Yes it is definitely worth cutting the liner to inspect. Imagine what could happen if one of them were to fail while under sail with your family or friends aboard.
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Rachel
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Rachel »

To my mind it's a decision you have to make after considering all the factors. Of course the "best" thing to do would be to inspect any chainplates. But then, on the other hand, if everyone did all the "best" things there would be a lot of project boats and few people out sailing.

What sort of life has the boat had? 25 years in a barn? Sailed on inland lakes only? Raced in salt water and put away wet? How does the craftsmanship on other things look?

Okay, now having started out like it was an option, I have to say that I would have to inspect them before I could enjoy sailing. But that's just me. On the other hand, you've brought it up, which means you are thinking about them too. And boats and hardware/metal being what they are, there's no way for anyone here to definitively say "oh no, they will be fine." Basically, you're stuck inspecting them now or you will never be able to stop thinking about it ;)

I don't know how your specific boat/liner arrangement is put together (photos?), but I have seen a number of boats where there are access holes in the liner and they are covered up with attractive/functional teak plates that allow for future inspection and maintenance as well. I think the Cape Dory 25 has some of these, for example (not on chainplates but for other hardware).

Although there are many tools that could do this sort of job, I will put in a plug for the Fein Multimaster as one that makes it practically pleasant (low dust, precise, and many of the cutting blades will shrug off flesh instead of consuming it).

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comet
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by comet »

Thanks for your advice. I think, like both of you mentioned, that regardless of my reluctance I need to get in there and see for myself. I have too vivid of an imagination of my entire rig blowing off the side of the boat to let this go.
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Paulus »

comet wrote:Thanks for your advice. I think, like both of you mentioned, that regardless of my reluctance I need to get in there and see for myself. I have too vivid of an imagination of my entire rig blowing off the side of the boat to let this go.
So, after you've cut up the boat and looked at the chainplates, - will you trust the swaged connections on the shrouds? I had two of them fail - one of them simply pulled out and on the other the shroud broke just inside, about 1/8" down from the top - sheared off perfectly.

And then, after you cut up the boat to check the chainplates and replaced the standing rigging, what will keep you up at night? The diesel fuel tank needing cleaning? You know the engine will quit right when you enter that precarious inlet with following seas, with the sails tucked away.

What about those thru-hulls? They look good from the outside but we all know that they rot on the inside. They may operate smoothly and then one day, as you are opening or closing it, you have the valve body in your hand and a gusher at your feet.

Navigation light? You'll get into a collision. Main breaker panel? It'l start the boat on fire. Starter motor (mine failed just before the end of last season)... it'l fail when you need it most...

My point is that though I love to visit these sites and ask questions as much as anyone else, I realize that the answer I probably will get is the "best advice" people will volunteer. Go to a perfectionist's site and you better buy a new boat every year.

About those chainplates - what is the cause for concern? Are they undersized? Do they have a history of failing on your particular design? Has the boat been used in such manner or venue to have put extraordinary stress or strain on them? If it is just a hunch - for me the worst time is fall/winter because I too conjure up all these "must do, or must look at" schemes, but luckily, when I arrive at the boat with my toolbox I usually get distracted soon with other nuisance items and leave well enough alone.

My advice? If you have no specific reason to question their integrity, leave them be.
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Triton106 »

I don't know why builders would put chain plates behind inaccessible linings. Several of my chain plates are sheathed in fiberglass which has the same effect as hiding them behind linings. IMHO if you are uncomfortable (regardless if your fear is well found) you should cut open the lining. The worst thing that could happen is that you find they are in fine condition and you can cover the cut out with a piece of teak or other material so that you can access periodically in the future. At the minimum it will buy you a peace of mind which to me is worth the trouble of cutting it open and covering it back up.
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by bcooke »

So, after you've cut up the boat and looked at the chainplates, - will you trust the swaged connections on the shrouds? I had two of them fail - one of them simply pulled out and on the other the shroud broke just inside, about 1/8" down from the top - sheared off perfectly.]
There is no way to test a swage other than tearing it apart and noting how much force it took before it failed. Nonetheless, using a good rigger that knows what he is doing, replacing the swaged fittings after an appropriate amount of time, and an occasional visual inspection will avoid 99% of the failures.
And then, after you cut up the boat to check the chainplates and replaced the standing rigging, what will keep you up at night? The diesel fuel tank needing cleaning? You know the engine will quit right when you enter that precarious inlet with following seas, with the sails tucked away.
What fool tucks away their sails before the boat is secured to the anchor/mooring/dock? Fuel filters changed at regular intervals is not a crazy idea either.
What about those thru-hulls? They look good from the outside but we all know that they rot on the inside. They may operate smoothly and then one day, as you are opening or closing it, you have the valve body in your hand and a gusher at your feet.
Good quality ones don't rot away. A two minute inspection once a year will tell you all you need to know about the condition of your thru- hull. If it needs to be changed, change it.
Navigation light? You'll get into a collision. Main breaker panel? It'l start the boat on fire. Starter motor (mine failed just before the end of last season)... it'l fail when you need it most...
Now we are just getting silly.
About those chainplates - what is the cause for concern?
Chainplates are a known and common point of weakness where water can leak around them causing corrosion and eventual failure. An occasional visual inspection is prudent and just good maintenance.
I don't know why builders would put chain plates behind inaccessible linings.
Reducing costs and raising the profit margins. Either it simplified the construction or they found under-skilled labor (aka less costly) to do the job. Or simply no consideration for the longevity of the boat. Once the sale is made they have their money so who cares? Sadly, that is not an unheard of sentiment.

Decent installation and good maintenance will eliminate virtually all failures. If something breaks catastrophically it is nearly always your own fault or the fault of the designer / builder. Install it right. Do the maintenance. We don't build them but we do maintain them. Maintenance is an integral part of keeping a boat safe. Don't avoid doing necessary maintenance just because you can't afford it. If you can't afford the maintenance then you can't afford the boat.

It really isn't that hard.
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Figment »

sigh. There he goes again, being all reasonable and stuff...
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Rachel
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Rachel »

comet wrote:
So, after you've cut up the boat and looked at the chainplates, - will you trust the swaged connections on the shrouds? I had two of them fail - one of them simply pulled out and on the other the shroud broke just inside, about 1/8" down from the top - sheared off perfectly.
That's a good point. As critical as the rig is for sailing, it is one of the systems that I would want to feel completely comfortable with. If there is anything about it that suggests it may have problems (looks/known age/just don't feel right about it), then I would replace that too. "Weak link" and all that. New standing rigging for a boat of that size is not a major investment, and if you are of the right bent, you can do it yourself with Norseman/Sta-Lok, etc. type fittings.
comet wrote: And then, after you cut up the boat to check the chainplates and replaced the standing rigging, what will keep you up at night? The diesel fuel tank needing cleaning? You know the engine will quit right when you enter that precarious inlet with following seas, with the sails tucked away....
I think that's the point at which each sailor has to decide for themselves (after understanding the systems) how much to do and where to stop. Certainly it's reasonable to want to sail in a boat that is shipshape and does not cause one sleepless nights. And older boat do have failures of these critical parts. Of course, at some point, if you find yourself endlessly worrying about the "what ifs" -- and your boat is in good condition -- then maybe another sport/hobby is the right one. There's a line somewhere between prudence and just plain not fun.
comet wrote:My point is that though I love to visit these sites and ask questions as much as anyone else, I realize that the answer I probably will get is the "best advice" people will volunteer. Go to a perfectionist's site and you better buy a new boat every year.
Given what I read in some boating magazines, and on the Internet, I can imagine there are such sites. I like it here though: There is a wide range of experience, knowledge, and interest, and the one thing most seem to have in common is common sense. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and for me, this site has helped me to be a bit more of a "realist."

The standards here are high, but not in a perfectionist way (not to me anyway), but in a prudent, realistic, let's get it done and go sailing way. No, most people will not recommend "short cuts" in the sense that they be quick and "easy," but not really so in the long run. Yet I don't find the people here to be the sort who propose perfection either. And certainly not a new boat every year; how would that be Classic Plastic ;) (Plus, I've seen new boats; they are new, but they definitely need to have things worked out and sometimes improved or repaired nonetheless.)

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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Skipper599 »

Rachel said: "New standing rigging for a boat of that size is not a major investment" ... I was just having a little grin to myself, having recently shelled out almost $3k for a complete set of standing rigging for my Passage 24 ... I guess everything is as they say ... relative! ... Sure wish I could find that 'relative', maybe he would like to pick up the tab ... Grin.
Personally, I was thinking $3k was a major investment (for me that is). ... Next, I'm looking to buy a complete set of sails in the spring ... I know THAT will be a major investment for sure.
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Rachel »

Skipper, I am sorry. I did not mean to callously imply that $3k is no big deal. I think what I should have said is "new stays and shrouds" (of which comet had just referred to as having failed at the swages). I have not priced these for a boat the size of a Seafarer 26 lately -- and maybe I should have before posting -- but I was thinking they would be more in the $500 range? It's longer than your boat, but more of a light coastal/trailer sailor type, if I remember correctly. I would think the rigging would be much lighter than on your boat.

By using the term "standing rigging," I mistakenly implied tangs, toggles, turnbuckles, chainplates... the whole nine yards. That was my fault and I apologize.

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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by Skipper599 »

No apology required Rachel ... I was simply trying to inject a little humour. After all, none of us will spend more money on our boat than we want to. And yes, I realised all along, the rigging I recently purchased is more substantial than the one under discussion.
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Re: inspection of chainplates

Post by ILikeRust »

When I bought my 1968 Pearson Wanderer in August, the surveyor strongly recommended I pull and inspect all the chainplates. Fortunately, they're easily accessible. He explained crevice corrosion, and we've got to assume they're the original ones, as we have no information indicating they've ever been removed or replaced, and a look at them gives no reason to believe they've ever been touched.

He recommended I just do one at a time, so I won't have to drop the whole rig. As I said, fortunately, they're pretty easy to get at - but they do penetrate the deck, so once I pull them out and put them back, I'll have to re-seal where they go in - no biggie, really, for the peace of mind of knowing they're good.

Add it to the huge list!

In the spring I'm probably going to pull the Atomic A4 and bring it home so I can do a bench overhaul and then drop it back in. Also going to remove a few old, abandoned through-hulls and glass them over.
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