Teak Decking repair

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:39 pm

My Morgan 33 (classic) has 3/8" teak laminated to the surface of the cockpit seats with polysulfide in the caulking grooves. My questions are:

About 2 square feet of the teak is de-laminating from the fiberglass, what is the best way to adhere this back to the fiberglass? Do I have to remove the entire length or can I just repair the area which has delaminated?

What can I use for a sealant in the caulking grooves? About 1/3 of the polysulfide has shrunk from the edges of the teak. The sealant which was used originally was the boat life single part caulk.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:53 pm

So, I take it that the teak boards were not screwed to the cockpit seats, but only glued down with something?

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:06 pm

The teak was epoxied to the fiberglass gel coat. Apparently the weights used to hold down this area were not positioned correctly.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:24 pm

Anything you do to try to refasten a partially releasing plank will be subject to further problems. You can cut the piece where it is still bonded well and just remove the separated portion. Then prep the surface and reapply the piece or a replacement piece. I doubt the seam fill is polysulfide, though I suppose it could be. It is most likely a silicone based rubber filler designed specifically for teak decking. I use SIS 440 by Teak Decking Systems. Without pictures and/or more information it would be hard to give more than suggestions about repair techniques that may or may not be what you need to actually do. I will say that if an idea is really easy it probably won't last. Something is wrong, and all compromised material probably needs to be removed and replaced.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:35 pm

And the boards are solid teak? Hmmm, if the teak was epoxied to the gelcoat and has since pulled up, something was probably wrong to start with. I would say odds are you will need to take the boards up and relay them to do it correctly.

Skipper599 · Post by **Skipper599** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:02 am

... I don't understand why teak was first 'epoxied' to the seats. ... The specialists who recently applied teak to my boat used only the Boatlife single caulk.
... Having watched them at work, I would venture an opinion something was not done correctly in the first place, and that 'something' ... as in so many similar situations ... is probably incorrect, or inadequate preparation.
... I noticed my contractors spent a lot of time sanding, brushing, vacuuming and cleaning the f/g surfaces prior to the application process. The final operation was to wash the f/g surface with a liberal qty. of cleaning agent ... I believe it was Acetone, but could have been a 'Boatlife' product.
... They then performed an acetone wash to the underside of the teak decking, prior to spreading the 'Boatlife' single caulk using a serrated spreader tool to both surfaces to be mated. Each piece was applied individually, using 1/8" nylon spacers to maintain the caulk gaps.
... I should have mentioned, the perimeter pieces were installed first and left for a couple of days (under plastic protection) for the caulk to set. The inside pieces were then applied, using pieces of plywood supported on the perimeter pieces previously installed and weighted down.
... A few days later, using a 1/4" wood chisel to clean out between the teak, immediately applying new caulk to each and every groove so that the caulk stood just 'proud' of the teak. Protection from dust and moisture was simply a sheet of plastic.
... A week later, using a 10" disc sander, they removed all excess caulk, barely scuffing the teak. The semi-final finish was obtained using a V.S. Belt Sander at about medium speed, and then hand sanding to desired finish.
... The main deck bonding was performed using the vacuum bagging method. The seats were too 'itty-bitty' to use this system.
... Hope this info may be of some value ...

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:19 am

Skipper599 wrote:... I don't understand why teak was first 'epoxied' to the seats. ...

The largest teak decking company in North America uses epoxy. http://www.teakdecking.com/ So do I. They are also the manufacturer of the epoxy and seam fill I use.

It is more likely that Mike's problem was poor preparation, not a poor choice of materials. That is often the case when things on boats come apart. A clean scuffed deck and freshly cleaned with acetone teak is key.

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:26 am

I believe the preparation (lack of) of the seats probably the root cause. If I remember correctly the day that the port seats were expoxied we had a terrible rain storm come through about two hours after they were epoxied after which water had pooled on the seats.

So, I guess the remedy would be to strip off all of the teak, clean, sand, clean and reassemble.

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:48 am

It could be a variety of things. The seats could have been polished with a wax or polish and not cleaned with acetone first so the polish acted as a kind of release agent. The teak should always be cleaned with acetone on the to-glue surface immediately prior to applying epoxy to remove the oil in the wood. The surfaces may have been starved for epoxy and very little was available for bonding. Certainly rain that soon after the epoxy was mixed may have contributed. To bond the wood to the gelcoat properly, the two surfaces should have been first painted with unthickened epoxy, and then thickened epoxy applied.

Roughing up the gelcoat will certainly help the bond.

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:52 am

Bob:

<<... I don't understand why teak was first 'epoxied' to the seats. ... The specialists who recently applied teak to my boat used only the Boatlife single caulk. >>

West System / the Gougeon Brothers has developed a procedure for gluing teak to decks bungless. It uses West epoxy thickened with a mixture of their 404 high density adhesive filler and 423 graphite powder instead of caulking, and uses screws with fender washers between each board to hold the boards in place and provide consistent spacing until the epoxy hardens. Here is a good write up on it from the West site:

http://www.westsystem.us/ss/assets/Uplo ... akdeck.pdf

David

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:49 pm

I had reviewed the West System procedure but I was trying to do this project without drilling any holes into the plywood core of the seats.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:56 pm

morgan33mike wrote:I had reviewed the West System procedure but I was trying to do this project without drilling any holes into the plywood core of the seats.

Even if you use spacers, the pieces really want to drift around on the wet epoxy. They are likely to move even after you have left but before the epoxy cures. I use as few screws as possible, weights wherever practical and then inject all the screw holes with slightly thickened epoxy using a syringe before paying the seams. I don't feel uncomfortable about this method at all. Should some pieces drift on you during the curing phase, you are stuck with it. Or you have to tear it up, that section anyway, and start over. I am abhorred by the prospect of doing things twice. Especially something this tedious the first time around.

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:03 pm

If the planks are tight against each side of the spacer screws and the screws/washers are cranked down, how would the planks "drift"? I think adding weights might cause drift or slippage. The West procedure is a tried and true method that has been used for a long time on many boats. The procedure does call for the screws to be coated in a release agent, like cooking oil and the holes to be filled with the same thickened mix of 404 and 423 as is used to fill the spaces between each board.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:03 pm

David wrote:If the planks are tight against each side of the spacer screws and the screws/washers are cranked down, how would the planks "drift"?

They don't. I am suggesting that not using screws is a mistake.

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:10 pm

I gotcha...

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:09 pm

Well guys, I have contacted Teak Decking Systems and I am really intrigued with their method of supplying the teak already with a scrim attached which is ready for installation. They also use their own formulation of caulking for the joints which has an elastimer in the expoxy.

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:25 pm

Good luck with that,

David

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:44 pm

David:

Do have any experience with TDS or know of anyone who has?

Mike

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:08 pm

Mike,

I do not have personal experience with their premade decking nor do I know of any boats that have installed their product (not too many boats in down here with teak decks). The only thing I know about them is that they are very expensive. I would definitely check out their references. Anyone can call themselves the largest, oldest or best on the Internet.

David

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:40 am

I have:

1. used premade panels from TDS in a professional setting

2. helped the TDS installers my employer sub-contracted with final details like hatches, hardware replacement etc. on complete decking jobs

3. used TDS products for repairs and complete decking projects

Yes, they are expensive. They are also very professional. I have seen the bills for decking jobs I have done, both from scratch and using their panels. I am expensive when billed by a full service marina. I couldn't afford me if I had to pay. I suggest anyone faced with deck repairs evaluate their skills, time and money and make a decision based on this evaluation. All any of us can offer you of any value is reports on experience and our opinions. And the later should be considered suspect.

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:25 am

What did you think of the concept of using teak panels instead of laying each board separately?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:46 am

morgan33mike wrote:What did you think of the concept of using teak panels instead of laying each board separately?

You still have to make accurate full sized patterns. I would suggest you take pictures of the old stuff before destruction to show the lay out. The panels are not cheap and are shipped from Florida. But installation is easy, the detail of the panels is absolutely beautiful and you will save a ton of time. You bed the entire panel in fresh epoxy, using just a few screws to avoid drift, and some weights. No paying the seams, no sanding, no worrying about distortion in the pattern and little wearing of epoxy and none of seam fill. Clean up a little when cured and you are done. Prep is the same, but there isn't a job worth doing where you can avoid that.

If I were doing it for me I would do it from scratch. But then I do this for a living and have more time than money.

If you go this route feel free to continue the discussion for more details.

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:12 am

Dave:

Thanks for the reply. I was the one who installed the teak decking on the cockpit seats initially. The starboard seat and all of the hatch covers came out great! My problem is the port seat near the main cabin where water pools after a rain or a good washing.

I have the time (retired), moderate skills and a great wood working shop. But in the past I was always wanting instant gratification, so sometimes the prep work suffered.

Some details about the installation:

1. Boards are 7/16 x 2" milled from 4/4 teak. Not thick enough for a proper plug for screws. Should I recut and make thicker boards? If so, what thickness?

2. The seam compound was a boatlife single part polysulfide which they market as a teak caulk. Over 30% of this caulk has pulled away for the edges of the caulking grooves (1/4 x 1/4). I did not put any release paper at the bottom of these grooves. By the way the caulking grooves were made by creating a rabbet on each board. Should I use the TDS caulking material the next time around?

3. The entire seats were wiped down with 202 solvent, sanded and then wiped with acetone before applying the thickened west system epoxy. The boards were not buttered with non-thickened epoxy before assembly.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Mike

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:32 am

morgan33mike wrote:Dave:
I have the time (retired), moderate skills and a great wood working shop. But in the past I was always wanting instant gratification, so sometimes the prep work suffered.

I think we have all been guilty of this before. Some of us, myself included required this to properly learn the lesson. As long as we do learn the lesson we can move ahead.

1. Thickness can and often is a very debatable subject. Weight, cost, fastening as you have already discovered, long term wear and often very job specific constraints all effect the decision. Or they should at least. My favorite thickness, which considers some of each of these is the thickest you can get by resawing 5/4 stock. If you already own the 4/4, and/or you need to match the existing thickness, this doesn't help at all. On larger boats, if the budget allows, I like 4/4 dressed to the max. But it isn't my money, so its easy for me to say.

2. SIS 440 is designed specifically for paying the seams of teak decks. Jamestown Distributors carries it now. I use the stuff for bedding windlass base blocks as well. Great stuff, but a real mess to clean up. Masking is really important. Let me say it again. Masking is really important. I like a 3/16" seam that goes all the way to the deck. I do this by spacing the pieces with #8 pan head screws with finish washers. This is also the primary clamping technique as well. Bricks, rocks, window weights, and anything your imagination can dream of for areas that are already anchored by the screws, but need pressure. Inject the caulk into the seam such that it rises above the teak behind the tip of the cartridge as you move along. Leave this ridge for 3 full days to cure. Cut the excess flush with a knife, push blade, whatever, then sand all at the end.

3. I don't bother with any fancy cleaners for anything. If acetone won't hurt it, and acetone hurts almost nothing, that is my choice. Alcohol is my choice for most cleaning, but not where a serious bond is required.

I hope this helps. It would seem you already have the skills. You just need to tweak the procedures.

*edited to include cool links, just found the directions to do it, had to try*

georgefmys · Post by **georgefmys** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:52 pm

Have fastened teak to decks many different ways. For small areas ,epoxy makes sense, but you cannot let it get wet before almost full-cure! A helpful quality about epoxy that you dont hear taken advantage of is reaction to heat....any heat gun and putty knife will soften cured epoxy,you can remove individual boards,clean runs even puddles of ''hardened'' material. Maybe can help save some of your good work.

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:41 pm

I removed, refinished and reinstalled my entire deck using TDS' fitting epoxy and seam caulk. The fitting epoxy has a pretty decent open time even at high ambient temperature. The seam caulk cures very firm and cleans up easily with 80 grit paper on a random orbit or belt sander. 7/16 is plenty of thickness and probably the most you would want with epoxy application.

morgan33mike · Post by **morgan33mike** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:54 pm

What sort of prep work is needed for the TDS seam caulk? Was a primer needed? Is TDS's epoxy more elastic than the regular West System epoxy?
One of the issues I experienced with the Boat Life Teak Caulk was shrinkage.

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:48 pm

For the seam caulk and the teak decking a wipe down with acetone is recommended. Also the use of a bond breaker tape in the bottom of the grove is recommended to increase the lifespan of the caulk. The fitting epoxy has the consistency of caramel. TDS claims it is more flexible than traditional thickened epoxy. The instruction sheets are available on their website at www.teakdecking.com

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:34 pm

Capn_Tom wrote: Also the use of a bond breaker tape in the bottom of the grove is recommended to increase the lifespan of the caulk.

Recommended by whom? I never heard of such a thing. I clean teak with acetone any time I expect anything to stick to it. It is all I do for seam fill as well.

The TDS epoxy is some what more elastic than West and many others. It is a 1:1 ratio, the color matches the teak better for when it may be exposed in corners and requires no thickening. It trowels nicely. I have no doubt West will work fine. But TDS seems to have taken teak decking to a real science. West is a saturating epoxy for gluing wood to wood and for protection. TDS is designed specifically for teak to substrate.

Read the specs Mike. SIS 440 does not shrink. It was developed specifically as a seam fill and that is a characteristic that was required. Visit the site I linked in a previous post.

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:54 pm

Recommended by whom?

By Teak Decking Systems. In my previous post I indicated that the product literature was available on their website. After revisiting the site I realized it has to be requested. I do have the literature if anyone would like me to forward it.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:39 am

Hmmm, they even show using the tape in this video But I have never seen TDS installers use the tape or even mention it in our conversations. They make it look easy to apply the tape in the video, but on a real deck you virtually never have open ends to the seams to do as they did. I don't think I will use the tape. Be it new decks, or reseaming, the jobs are tedious enough. I have never seen properly applied seam fill fall or shrink out. This includes 50 year old Concoridias where the cockpit sole is teak and seam fill with no substrate, and the integrity of the cockpit relies solely on the seam fill. The whole tape thing just seems like over kill to me.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:19 am

Hirilonde wrote:video

Wow, you mean that's all that's involved in teak decking? Who knew it was so neat and straightforward. After watching the informative video, I think I'll whip a new teak deck together after work tonight. It looks like an easy and fun way to spend an hour or so.

Obviously anyone who thinks teak decks can be challenging hasn't yet seen this video. The world has just become so easy thanks to YouTube and the Internet.

;<)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:44 am

Okay, now I have to watch it.

Rachel

(Nothing planned for this afternoon anyway; maybe I'll throw a teak deck on ;)

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