Advice on repairing damaged core around hatch

[Marshall Wright]

Greetings,

I own a 30 year old Pacific Seacraft 25 near Annapolis. I need some advice on how to approach a newly discovered repair.

I knew I had a leak around the front hatch but I put off starting it until I took care of some other more pressing items.

Well, this weekend I removed the hatch and the core entirely around the exposed hatch cutout is damaged. I dug out what I could; in some areas it became solid again two inches in from the cutout edge; in other areas, I stopped when I reached the limit of the 8" screwdriver I was using.

My biggest concern is that the damage appears to reach up under my mast which is located immediately behind the hatch. I did not remove the material from there.

I'm going back Friday to drop the mast to remove pressure on the deck.

I have read much of the discussion on this forum regarding deck repair and recoring. I understand that this can be done from above or below. I'd very much like to avoid what I've observed Tim do on his recoring projects - cut away deck, replace core, refiberglass, apply antiskid and then paint to cover up the repairs.

My questions. My deck is actually in very good condition. I hate to tear it up. From a practicality standpoint, if I take a coat hanger or other long probe and really reach in and remove what I can reach- perhaps as deep as 1 - 2 feet, until I reach hard balsa, is that OK? I notice after removing material this weekend, some material is wet and has totally lost its structure. Other material is still very firm and is difficult to remove. But its wet. If I start digging, I will be able to remove the rotted stuff. But I will not be able to tell if the firm stuff is dry. Will that matter? If wet but good and firm can I leave it? Next, can I then complete an acceptable repair by taking a syringe and ejecting an appropriate epoxy fill into the void? Would I have to dry out that core material before ejecting? Or would it be OK to eject away?

At what point does this become a jackleg and amateurist approach? If I can eject, is there a tool that would help me shoot the epoxy deeply?

Advice or links to similiar attempts at making such a repair would be most appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Marshall

[Tim]

The extent and nature of the damage you're describing sounds like it may well be far too much to consider any sort of epoxy injection repair, or other non-destructive approach. Epoxy injection is good for only small areas of top-skin delamination (where small areas of the skin debond from the core below), and never as a core replacement.

I think it sounds like you're going to need to open up the deck, either from above or below. Sorry. But there's no sense in doing it the wrong and ultimately ineffective way. Clearly you've had a bad leak that has been ongoing for some time, and this has affected a large area of your deck core. It needs the proper repair at this point.

[Marshall Wright]

OK. How did I KNOW that that would be the answer????

I've used a coat hanger and the worst place is under the mast and around three deck glands that were near the mast. Roughly a square that is 14-16 inches deep.

A follow-on question. If I wanted to do the non-invasive repair now, sail some next year and bite the bullet in a year or so and have the deck properly recored and painted to cover the damage, can I do that? Will a temp repair like that hold, particularly around a mast, for awhile or does the epoxy just not work that way?

Marshall

[Tim]

It's the critical support for the mast. Repairing the area correctly shouldn't even be a question.

There's no better time than now.

[Quetzalsailor]

You may be able to invent a repair method that might be easier to do than restore the appearance as it was.

You're taking the mast down so access from the deck will be easier. You ought to ascertain the extent of the wet. I read that it takes skill and experience to get reliable readings with a moisture meter. I also read that there are folks who use infrared imagery to more accurately delimit the extent (PBB a couple years ago).

Presuming some reasonable extent, you might cut the top out with some neat shape that allows working room outside the cut line. Then, replace the core. The usual repair is to scarpf the top lamina back flush with the adjacent lamina and restore the appearance. You might put a purposefully shaped and aesthetically not-displeasing fiberglass patch (raised, neatly and perfectly finished, curved to match the deck, etc.) over the scarphed area that would look as though it was done on purpose.

Our NE 38s deck needs work, too, but at the usual places around the forward end of the house. The deck around the partners is a little odd and would benefit from the above patch idea. The deck mould was prepared with non-skid which was stopped and made smooth around the partners. However, when the yawl sailplan was no longer made and the mast moved aft for sloops, LeComte did not modify the deck mould. Thus the mast passes through part smooth and part non-skid areas: a little tacky. There's nothing wrong with the core there, so the detail will remain until I go at the whole deck.

[Marshall Wright]

Thanks Tim and Quetzalsailor for your input and advice.


Grrrrrrrrrrrr

[Ceasar Choppy]

Marshall, I wouldn't get too excited until you can get the mast down. Although I don't have pictures, you might very well be able to judge the extent to the wetness by opening up around the partners before removing any visible deck.

If the extent of the wet core goes beyond what you can reach from the partners, then you might be SOL... but if not, I don't see why you couldn't use the partners as a way to remove more of the core you couldn't get from the hatch side. Then you could re-core by sliding epoxy-soaked strips of core in through the hatch opening, all the way back to the partners.

Good luck.

[Marshall Wright]

Ceasar Choppy,

This is sounding promising.......

What are partners? I assume something below my mast base?

I am at the boat Friday and will post photos.

Marshall

[Marshall Wright]

Ceasar Choppy has got me all excited.

What if I find that damage extends 6-8 inches deep in most areas but 2 feet towards and on both sides of the mast step. This would be a square

Say I can scrap all the bad balsa out. I have a 3/4-inch space at the hatch cutout from which to work into the void between the deck and cabin top. Say I try to create a neat edge. It won't be perfect; probably a little ratty-edged. Vacuum carefully. Then take a 3/4-inch block wrapped with 80 grit sandpaper, sand, vacuum and swab out again with acetone. Could I swab the area between the fiberglass layers with thickened epoxy and then while still wet, slide epoxy saturated core material into the void? I know the edges between the old and new core material would not abut nicely but if I placed enough epoxy in there first, it would likely fill the voids. Wouldn't this result in a reasonably good repair?

I can just feel Tim and others rolling their eyes. But I my damage is no more than I describe (and I think it is about right) will this suffice? Really?

Marshall

[Quetzalsailor]

Marshall, I gather from your description <<<drop the mast to remove pressure on the deck>>> <<<three deck glands>>> that your mast is stepped on deck. Most of us have masts that continue downward through the deck and eventually arrive somewhere, preferably solid, at the bottom of the boat. When a mast passes through the deck it receives lateral support from the deck structure. In framed boats this structure was doubled beams and fore-and-aft framing, called the 'partners'. In plastic boats there has been used a variety of ways to stiffen the deck to do the work of the partners. Usually it's little more than substituting light, weak, soft core materials for solid wood, 'glass, aluminum, etc. core. Most boats have some sort of metal trim around the opening to which the mast is booted and which is bedded to the deck. It may not adequately protect the exposed edge of the core, the bedding may fail, the bolt holes may not be sealed, so everybody lives in fear of the adventure that you're about to enjoy.

Post some pictures.

[Trecksail]

I work at a boatyard as well. Not affiliated with Tim but rather in Wisconsin on Lake Michigan. I have to say that some of the best money made by marinas is from boat owners who did their own "half ass" repairs trying to save time/money. THAT ALWAYS CAUSES MORE PROBLEMS!
Not to say that anyone can't do it. Just that they have rarely seen enough simular circumstances to understand why it is so important to do it right the first time.
Just think about it for a second. From your comments it's obvious you know what the correct repair is. You are just asking in hopes of finding someone who will agree with you so you feel "off the hook". But it's your boat. Tim even has step by step photos and instructions on the correct repair for you. How much simpler can that get? So please, don't try to re-engineer a repair that will surely further damage your boat.

Also please understand that I'm not trying to cut you down. We all have been there. It may seem like a major undertaking and for all of us, new major undertakings are scary. Acknowledge the fear and move past it. The reality is that even the correct repair probably won't take much longer to do than dropping and re-stepping your mast, aside from cure times.

And the best part is that the more successfull projects you complete on your boat the better you'll feel about doing more. And there's nothing that makes it more your boat either. The next time you're out sailing and look up at the sails and down the mast to the base, you'll get a smile on your face and a great feeling of achievement instead of a knot in your stomach wondering if something is going to give out.

[Ceasar Choppy]

I have to clarify and apologize.... In the absense of pictures, I used my own boat in my mind's eye and forgot that Marshall's mast might be deck stepped.

Marshall: partners are that part of the cabin-top through which a keel stepped mast passes through. If indeed you have a keel stepped mast, what I described MIGHT work if the planets and stars align correctly.

If you have a deck-stepped mast, then you are probably gonna have to do some deck surgery as others have described.

Repairing saturated core under a deck-stepped mast should be evaluated carefully.

[Marshall Wright]

OK.

Trecksail has exposed me for what I am; saw right through me.

Its just that my two quotes, $4,000 and $5-6,000 just took my common sense and sense-of-adventure away from me.

Marshall

[David]

OK.

Trecksail has exposed me for what I am; saw right through me.

Its just that my two quotes, $4,000 and $5-6,000 just took my common sense and sense-of-adventure away from me.

Marshall

Marshall,

What are these quotes for and from whom?

David

[Marshall Wright]

One from my marina operator; the other an independent fiberglass guy who is well respected in the Annapolis area.

The more expensive quote is variable because they will try to reapply the existing cut away deck but may not be able to while the less expensive approach is to cut away, glass back in and try to tint the final repair to minimize the final appearance. The finish appearance will be white but lack antiskid.

Marshall

[David]

Do you have a deck stepped mast? I'd be leary of any sort of fixed bid from anyone for that sort of repair until at least the mast is out and exporitory holes have been drilled to determine the extend of damage.

Do you have stress cracks in the glass near the mast? Is there sagging at the crown of the cabintop near the mast? Do your shrouds appear loose? Is there a door or locker near the area that now sticks? All I am getting at is that if the mast support area is damaged that will significantly affect those two bids. I would want to know all that before I contracted with anyone to do the work. Of course I would also expect to see examples of their work as well. I imagine you have already received references, etc.

David

[Marshall Wright]

The mast does not pass through the deck but is connected to a heavy SS arrangement specifically designed to ease lowering the 30' mast to pass under bridges.

There are no soft spots, no squisshy feeling underfoot. No fractures, nothing to have let me know that the deck was in trouble. Once I removed the hatch, saw the saturated core and saw how easy it was to rake out the rotted core, I stopped and tapped out the deck to see if I could disern any difference in sound between obviously wet and dry areas. Nothing. Nice solid, similiar sound everywhere.

I have a 4x4 kingpost in the cabin below the mast that is tied to a bulkhead.

Pictures coming after this weekend.

Marshall

[Barry B]

Marshall,

I am in the process of recoring the entire deck of my Catalina 22 from inside. First I flipped the boat over so gravity will work in my favor, than cut out the headliner from the underside of the deck, removed the core material, scraped and sanded the inside of the deck's fiberglass, epoxied a layer of fiberglass material inside the deck, covered it with thickened epoxy using a notched spreader, weted out the top side of the new marine plywood, put it in place and weighted it down with sand bags. That is where I am now. Next epoxy another layer of fiber glass cloth over the plywood, spread thickened epoxy with notched spreader, wetout the top side of the headliner, put it in place, and weight down with sand bags. By the way I bought the marine plywood, epoxy, and fiberglass cloth down in your area, Annapolis. Private message me and I will send you my E-mail address and cell number and I can give you more details. Here are links where I have posted some Information and pictures of some of my progress, but it needs to be updated, I will also post them on this site as soon as I get a chance. By the way I just found this site this week, it's a great site!!


http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.c ... p?t=101896



http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.c ... p?t=101423


http://www.c22region10.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=303

[Trecksail]

Marshall, I hope you didn't take any of that as insult. I give myself that same soapbox speach almost every project I start! And in reality, we'd be idiots if we didn't at least look for a better way on alot of things.
Unfortunately, with boats, there is no easier softer way. And of course, it's all friggin connected. A simple portlight upgrade I started last fall has mushroomed into damned near an entire renovation.

Anyway, those quotes seem a little high to me. Unless that's everything; hauling the boat, dropping the mast, repair and full deck repaint!

I like the idea of flipping the boat and going in from the outside! Although it can be done right side up as well, I've had to do way too much upside down (me) glasswork lately to not like the idea!

[David]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to flip over a PS 25. She wasn't built to support her weight in that orientation. I think you will probably need to consider the possiblity of painting her decks when the work is finished.