toe rail replacement Alberg 30

[Matt1]

Hi. I recently purchased a 1966 Alberg 30. While the previous owner did much work before he decided to sell, the toe rail section below the Genoa track has begun to rot, presumably by poorly sealed screw holes. It has apparently been replaced once already. My question is whether it is a very difficult job to bend the teak to match the curvature of the boat, and if anyone may know of a supplier, preferably in the Southeast who would have suitable teak stock for the job. The section in question is about 8 feet on each side. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Tim]

The curvature isn't extreme in that area, so bending the new wood shouldn't be too much trouble. It's usually the bow sections that are toughest to bend into place.

Remember that longer pieces are easier to bend than shorter, so err on the long side when you cut out the damaged material.

Good luck.

[Jason K]

Welcome to the forum Matt.

Try Riverside Lumber in New Orleans East. They're only about and hour and a half from Gautier.

Here's a link to their website: http://www.riversidelumber.com/frameset.htm

[Lloyd]

Jason

I've been looking for a place to get some Meranti plywood (I live east of Jackson MS) so I called Riverside Lumber that you just listed. The guy I talked to gave me a price of $36 for a 3/4" sheet. I asked a few more questions and he said it was Laun, it was the same as Meranti. When I asked about the BS1088 he didn't know what that was. I need this for new bulkheads in my Bristol 27 so I don't want to get the wrong stuff. Was I asking for the wrong stuff?

Thanks for any help

[Tim]

Luaun plywood is NOT the same as marine Meranti. They are both species of mahogany, however, and the wood itself may be similar, but Luaun plywood is typically a low-quality, interior-grade material.

Marine Meranti plywood of 3/4" thickness will cost roughly 3X as much as the price you were quoted for luaun; I haven't priced it recently, but 12mm Meranti (1/2") is running about $71/sheet here.

The key to the BS1088 standard is the quality of the inner laminations, and the number of laminations. BS1088 plywood guarantees void-free inner laminations, and the plywood has many more layers for a given thickness than "regular" plywood. This results in a stable, structural-quality product, with better bonding between the laminations.

Okoume is another BS1088 plywood to consider, if you cannot source the marine Meranti. Okoume costs more than Meranti, and is lighter weight for a given thickness. It's usually considered to be the top quality choice for marine plywoods. All BS1088 plywood is clearly stamped as such.

[Quetzalsailor]

Actually, I've just been suffering the Meranti-Luan confusion for wood building decking. They really are pretty much the same thing; very closely related species and carefully made confusing for the ease of sales to the unknowing. You'll get more information than you care to know if you go on Wikipedia or Google. There are several species of Meranti, one of which might be adequate for a deck you never left outside and always recoated with preservative.

Anyway, Meranti marine plywood is only suitable for marine use because it's preservative treated. The glues meet the BS 1088 standard but the wood is pretty poor. You can use this stuff if you seal it in epoxy: all faces, all edges, at all fastenings.

The Okume marine plywood is similarly crummy but there's precious little good wood left in the world for this purpose, and little that's affordable.

I was told that I bought the last three sheets of Khaya BS 1088 certified by Lloyds and all, which is said to be as good as Honduras Mahogany. I wrote Shelmarine and they can't get Khaya veneer anymore.

I used Home Despot's finest meranti-luan red-Chinese stuff for battery shelves and equipment mounting stuff in the bilge. It's coated out in West and looks fine after the first year and a half.

[LazyGuy]

Back to the toe rail...... How bad is "just started to rot" if it is just under the track and not visible to the naked eye from aft of the cockpit use "pour a toe rail." Dremmel out the rot, wet it out with epoxy, mix in wood dust and fill her up. Once the epoxy kicks, sand, drill and go.

Otherwise, scarf in a new piece. I only say that because you don't want to replace the entire toe rail for a 1/2" X 2" section of rot that you can't see under the toe rail anyway.

Cheers
Dennis

[Tim]

Anyway, Meranti marine plywood is only suitable for marine use because it's preservative treated. The glues meet the BS 1088 standard but the wood is pretty poor. You can use this stuff if you seal it in epoxy: all faces, all edges, at all fastenings.

We must be talking about different things, because the plywood I have been getting bears no resemblance to what you're describing.

[Ric in Richmond]

There is an alberg 30 (maybe a triton...not 100% sure) in my marina that has had its toe rails replaced with composite decking material.

It is tan and looks fine even up close. not as nice as teak but zero maintenance.

[Hirilondë]

Replacing a section of toerail (vs. the whole thing) is difficult to impossible to do well. Not only is bending a small section difficult compared to a long one as Tim has mentioned but getting the joints to the sections you keep fair is even harder if possible. When you cut out a section you change the strains on the now separate adjacent pieces which may cause them to move a little and change their curve, especially at the newly created ends. And now you have the challenge of not just bending the new piece in, simultaneously joining it at both ends to the old and worst of all hoping its curve blends in to the other two sections.

When I do a toerail job I replace the whole thing. I make up sections of the rail from the straightest grain piece of teak in my inventory. Run out in the grain (where the grain ends exit the piece through an edge rather than continuing along the board to the end) can allow the board to break during bending. After I have milled the stock to the appropriate shape I scarf together pieces to make up 2 lengths a couple feet longer than needed.

It is usually easier to start the installation from the bow. So I shape the forward end of the toerail to fit as required. I then lay out the screw holes over most (I lay out and drill the aft end when it is in place) of the length and pre-drill them. I put several screw holes at the forward end close together (1" 1 1/2" apart) as the strain here will be great as the bending begins. I now proceed to dry fit (temporary installation without bedding) the entire piece. The extra length has three purposes. First it is easier to get the length correct after the whole thing is properly bent into position. Second, the added length provides leverage for bending it into place. And third it adds to fairness of the curve at the aft end during the bending.

After I have dry fit the pieces and have satisfied myself to all parameters (the aft ends are still too long) I remove them. I now pre-seal them (real varnish is my choice) with at least 3 coats. The mating surface to the boat and the sides near them are the most important portions to seal well. In doing this you will now be bedding sealed wood vs. bare and moisture getting behind the varnish later will be resisted. As the screw holes will be bunged later and need sealing, getting a fine finish at this point is of little value.

The final installation is downright messy. I find myself wearing almost as much bedding as I get between the toe rail and the boat. As with all bedding jobs I insist on applying and spreading like icing the goop (my choice is Sikaflex 291-LOT) over both of the mated surfaces. It is the only way I know to assure that surface tension does not cause voids or bubbles when the piece is installed. Again I install from the bow and work aft. It is definitely easier to have help during both dry and final installation. After the toe rails are completed fastened, inspected and approved as installed well, I cut the extra length of with a hand saw and/or chisel to the shape desired or to fit the taffrail. Then I bung the screw holes, and finally mask and varnish the whole thing.

Toerail fabrication and installation is a tedious job. It takes far longer than many people think to do well. I recently replaced both toerails on a 20' friendship sloop at work and it took a full week (not including finishing after installation). When I replaced the toerails on my boat I suffered a break due to grain run out and had to add another scarf. That is another reason to start with sections that are too long. It allows for the length needed to cut out the break and rejoin the pieces while still maintaining enough length for your boat.

Its really hard to write a comprehensive description of a task such as this. I hope what I did write is of some help. Good luck with your project Matt.

[Rachel]

That's a keeper of a description, Dave. Thanks.

[Matt1]

Wow...
That sounds like a heck of a job if it took a whole week for someone that knows all the ins and outs to do a 20 footer. I think I need to give it another very close look. It sounds like the suggestion to fill may get me by for a while, while I take care of other things on the boat, ie: no gauges on the A-4. I don't think I could bear to put a composite toe rail on when all the other bright work looks so good. Any other "get by" suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Is this kind of damage extremely common on these boats? As I said, it looks like it has been repaired before. Thanks, Matt

[Jason K]

Matt, can you post some photos of the damage? Not only would that help generate some ideas, this forum has a huge appetite for photos.

[Matt1]

I will go down tommorrow morning and take some pics, and try to figure out how to post them. I think that I read that they have to be on another website and not from your pc. Thanks for the help, and the heads up on the n.o. supplier. Matt