Need advice before sealing ballast........

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:40 pm

Hi there, I have a 25' 1965 Frisco Flyer whose ballast (2,240Lbs of cast iron topped off with concrete) is partially exposed and needs to be repaired and resealed. The concrete in places has become loose and I intend on removing it, wieghing it and replacing it. The next step presumable then will be to expoxy over the concrete to seal out moisture and hold everthing in place. My question is... since this has been exposed for several years, I am sure some moisture and water has dripped down into the keel over the years...what can I add to hinder/retard any rust etc before sealing everything up tight. While everything may look good, there may be some water damage I cant see and is there a way address it now while I have everything opended up?
Heres a picture....

http://bp3.blogger.com/_Z7sHwRUOHfE/Rc3 ... 27_IMG.JPG

Thanks.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:08 pm

Guess this must be the month for everyone to seal up their ballast. Having a related project going on (see "battle of the bilge"), I'll keep an eye on this thread too.

I think I would be tempted to clean up the concrete and then grind up to that first tab line (the one at about 12") and fiberglass over the whole works ("cloth" reinforced resin) with a fillet on the corner. I'm not sure I would trust any sealer to cross that gap at the sides, nor to work on the cracks.

I'm drooling over the access you have!

Rachel

cantstopnow · Post by **cantstopnow** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:38 pm

see also http://triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2558
I want to glass mine in too but if there is already water intrusion, sealing it over may not be a good idea.
It certainly won't retard the rusting process.

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:59 pm

provided you truly seal the cast iron, current rust is not a problem- rust is simply oxidation and is self limiting on cast iron- once it builds to a certain thickness, it stops and the rust becomes a protective coating. That's how it protects itself. Now if you continue to get it wet and chip off the oxidation ( the rust) it'll keep going.

IF ( notice that word? ) IF you can keep it dry, then I'd over coat with some coal tar epoxy and close it up with the glass and epoxy..

Coal tar epoxy is sometimes used on things like those old cannon you see here and there, to seal the rust on the surface and prevent it chipping off, so new rust forms.

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:08 pm

Thanks for the advice. I wasnt sure if there was a type of rustoleum product that could cease any possible ongoing rusting. There has been water intrusion I'm sure, but there isnt any noticable damage from it so far. As far as covering it, I had also thought that I could over it with glass.
Thanks again to all.

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Mon May 07, 2007 6:10 pm

I now have new question.... The cement is crumbling apart more than I had previously thought and seems to be very wet deeper down. The boat was not protected well for a very long time and I am sure water has been sitting in it for years. I was going to let it dry out as best I could then pour new cement on top and epoxy it in place but I noticed a small place on the out side of the keel where water seemed to be weeping out. I drilled a hole in the lowest point of the keel and the drill bit came out soaking wet with cement that smelled like deisel. This thing may be full of water and not dry out for a very long time.
My question is there any danger to just removing it all and finding a better means of ballasting the boat?

dmairspotter · Post by **dmairspotter** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:01 pm

I believe I'd want to get to the bottom of that situation (pun intended). Seems like it would be quite a job.

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nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:09 pm

Heres a picture of the boat. Sorry, its not a great one, I took it with a camera phone. There is alot of cement to take out but I would feel much better knowing what was down there. This boat has sat on the hard for (16 years) with water getting in with every storm and who knows how long it would take to really dry out.

If I do take all the cement out, do I have to be concerned about the weight of the boat resting on the keel without cement in it?

Cut and paste this link into your browser....

http://bp0.blogger.com/_Z7sHwRUOHfE/RcY ... coming.jpg

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:21 pm

This is a better one....

http://bp0.blogger.com/_Z7sHwRUOHfE/Rj3 ... 0028-1.JPG

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:38 pm

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nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Mon May 07, 2007 8:49 pm

Unfortunately, no dragons on this one. Those seem like the first thing to go on these older ones. I'm looking everywhere for a replacement.
More stands will carry the weight better? Doesnt seem like there will be too much banging, more like scooping out crumbled wet cement.

Theres lots of pictures on the blog below.....

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:04 pm

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Post by **Tim** » Tue May 08, 2007 6:13 am

I don't see any problems with your stands and blocks as existing, but you might want to add a couple extra for support, given how you will be changing the weight distribution on the boat as you proceed. I can't tell if the aft stands are chained together like the bow stands, but they should be. Some pads under the stands would be good to keep them from sinking into the ground.

It would also be good to make sure your existing stands are located in line with the bulkheads in the boat (they look close already, to me) for added strength if they start to take up more of the hull weight as you remove the ballast.

But if you think you'll just be "scooping out" concrete without any banging, cursing, or hammering, I am afraid you may be unpleasantly surprised! I bet you'll find some large masses that you'll have to break up. I hope I'm wrong, though.

Good luck, and I hope you can document your process. It's not something that one does every day.

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:27 am

Thanks for the suggestions re the stands. They seem to be really secure and have withstood some steady 40mph winds not too long ago. I had planned on adding some boards under all of them to avoid any shifts. I'll also make sure they line up with the bulkheads if they dont already.
So, with all these things in mind, theres no need for me to worry about having an empty boat standing on an empty keel? (just tell me one more time).

And I know that this is a while off but when it comes time to replace the ballast should I use the same concrete with iron method or is there a preferred method such as lead bars/railroad track glassed in? Whats common in your Tritons and other classic plastics? It would be nice to have more of a bilge area.

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:29 am

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nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:31 am

Thanks. I have sure my work cut out for me and will be posting pictures of the progress. I'll borrow a few jack stands from friends as their boats get in the water to make sure this thing is steady as a rock just in case there is any signifigant pounding/movements etc...

It'll be great to see the condition of the inside of the keel and to have the ability to repair any damaged glass from the inside.

I guess this is a good time as any to start collecting lead.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:52 am

nhdory wrote: And I know that this is a while off but when it comes time to replace the ballast should I use the same concrete with iron method or is there a preferred method such as lead bars/railroad track glassed in? Whats common in your Tritons and other classic plastics? It would be nice to have more of a bilge area.

I would definately stay away from replacing with concrete. Concrete can actually float... the density of the cement is lighter than water. (Remember ferro-cement boats or the WWII era concrete ships the navy had built?).

I'm not sure you can still do this, but my parents added lead ballast to their boat back in the 70's... they went to brake and tire shops and scavenged the lead used to balance wheels on cars. They melted them down and were able to add another 300 lbs to the boat this way. Might be an option. You probably don't want to pour hot lead into the keel cavity, but you could probably melt it enough to conform to the space and make it so that you can glass it in tight when you finish it off. It will certainly take less space than the concrete!

One thing about the iron ballast. If water is in there, the rust will expand and it can be enough to crack the fiberglass of the keel. You'll want to get it as dry as possible. There is a paint that will stop the rust, but I'm not so sure it will it will convert it back to iron. I don't know the name of it, but it is only available commercially... it is used on offshore drilling platforms to protect against corrosion. Its nasty stuff, but I've seen it used to preserve a rusted fuel tank on a trawler. The tank was so big, the boat was built around it so that it couldn't be removed or replaced without hacking the boat to pieces.

Speaking of tanks, if you are smelling diesel, it is quite possible that an open section of the keel/bilge was used as an integral fuel tank. I've heard this was done on some boats, although I've never seen it myself.

I would also be careful blocking to much under the keel... the source of the water in the keel might be from a prior grounding and you may have cracks in the underside of the keel you will want to repair.

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:06 am

I think it has likley cracked in places and that why I've noticed what appears to be water "weeping" out in places. Not quite a trickle but just moist.

Re the fuel smell, the tank may have been in a different spot years ago but now is in a locker in the cockpit area out side of the boat with no noticable connecting the the inside bilge.

I heard of people using railroad tracks. Their iron (I believe) but if encapsulated in glass may be water tight.

2000 plus pounds of lead tire weights is a lot scavaging. Better get started.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:28 pm

nhdory wrote: 2000 plus pounds of lead tire weights is a lot scavaging. Better get started.

Tee hee. Yeah. I just checked McMaster Carr and they want $120 for a 60lbs ingot. That's about $4K for 2000lbs. The RR tracks sound like an interesting option.

This might be better fodder for the Rambling section: A friend of mine was up at Mystic Seaport looking at old America's Cup designs. I wish I could remember the design he was looking at... but he mentioned that it was from the 1940s or 50s and called for URANIUM as ballast in the keel. Heavier than lead. LOL.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:32 pm

That would be spent uranium. Not real nasty. It is used occasionally as a replacement for lead (as ballast, and I believe the US military uses it for shells and tank armour). Not only is it denser than lead, but it is also much harder.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 pm

A couple of quick comments:

1) I'm not saying you should replace with concrete, but I'm not so sure about concrete floating. I had a concrete plug (about the size of a loaf of bread) with a rebar loop in it that I used to use for a lunch hook on a little fishing skiff, and it sure sank. (It came as a "plug" in a new, concrete septic tank but was removed so that a fitting could be installed). I always thought ferro-concrete boats floated due to their shape (entrapped air), the same as, say, steel boats. Of course it's still not a great material for ballast, don't get me wrong.

2) A fellow with a Montgomery 23 dug out his original steel ballast when it rusted (it was the "donut holes" from steel washer manufacturing) and replaced it with lead. He did a bit of lead research and for some reason didn't use wheel weights (I seem to remember something about them not being lead anymore - or not pure maybe?). He bought bags of lead pellets in the end. I'll see if I can turn up a link to his website - he documented the whole process extensively, including photos.

3) CharlieJ has poured lead in molds for ballast applications (I bet others here have too); perhaps he'll chime in.

4) I should really update my bilge/ballast thread...

Rachel

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:47 pm

I just called a few scrap metal yeards. Lead here in NH is 40 cents a pound. Which they said is high. I could melt it down (or have someone else do it ) into managable chunks. Glass in a fair amount of them and set the rest on top. Then after launching, move them around for the best trim and finally seal them in place.

800 dollars or so for all new ballast is still a lot of money. (Mabye I could get a discount for buying bulk? ).

I have a long way to go before I'm putting anything back in there and will check back in as I get close. Rachel, if you can find that other Montgomery 23 ballast link, that would be helpful.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:59 pm

800 dollars or so for all new ballast is still a lot of money.

Perhaps you could find a derilict boat on eBay with lead ballast for less?

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:13 pm

Rachel wrote:A couple of quick comments:

1) I'm not saying you should replace with concrete, but I'm not so sure about concrete floating. I had a concrete plug (about the size of a loaf of bread) with a rebar loop in it that I used to use for a lunch hook on a little fishing skiff, and it sure sank. (It came as a "plug" in a new, concrete septic tank but was removed so that a fitting could be installed). I always thought ferro-concrete boats floated due to their shape (entrapped air), the same as, say, steel boats. Of course it's still not a great material for ballast, don't get me wrong.

They now make platforms out of concrete that float for floating homes:
http://www.cooperfloats.com/floats.htm

As I looked into this arcane topic, I found that it has more to do with the fact that anything that weighs less than the total amount of water it displaces will float.

Now you know. :)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:54 pm

I wouldn't think that lead and concrete are interchangeable as ballast materials. Many designers argue that a change from lead to cast iron will remarkably change a boat's behavior, and their respective densities aren't THAT far off. I know you're talking about moving in the other direction (making the boat stiffer), but still I'd proceed with caution.

What does pea gravel cost per pound?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:17 pm

I thought the original ballast was iron encapsulated in concrete; so the concrete was just a binder/filler, not the primary source of weight.

Speaking of salvaging lead, a co-worker at the last boatyard I worked at salvaged the lead from a small sailboat (only after determining that it was absolutely not worth saving the boat) for ballast in his Albin trawler. I watched as he cut the lead keel up with a chain saw - he said it cut remarkably easily and predictably. I didn't see a lot of dust.

It was a fin-type keel from a smallish race boat (~23' if I remember correctly). He cut it into chunks which he then moved around 'til he got the ballast right in his boat.

R.

PS: Thanks, Caesar - always good to find out more about an arcane topic.

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:22 pm

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nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:55 am

Hi again. I thought I would check in and give a brief update. Initially, I had thought, (from what information I could find on Cheoy Lee Flyers), that the ballast was a mixture of loose iron and concrete. I had planned to remove this weigh it and replace. After I removed the concrete from the bilge, I uncovered the huge iron pigs which are the primary ballast in this boat. Rachel is correct in thinking that the concrete is more of a binding agent and not the primary wieght. I was able remove the concrete from the top of them, which was about two inches and cleaned out about an inch on either side of them. The gaps on the sides seem to run down about 20 inches or so. There really isnt that much to replace.

Now I am again looking for advice on what to put back in there and top these things off with. Some have suggested hydraulic cement as it expands a little and is resistant to water intrusion. I was concerned about how much this stuff expands. I was thinking today as I was walking around the local hardware store about using a hydro/cement sealer, simmilar to the type used to seal moisture out of basements. What would be ideal would be something almost liquid that I could pour down the sides and on top which would then cure hard and stabilize the pigs from any side to side movement and also would resist water should any ever work its way in there again.

Thoughts?

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:39 pm

What about a polymer resin that is used to bond old concrete to new concrete and that reportedly repairs failed, crumbly concrete into stronger than new condition? Its resistant to water intrusion, freeze/thaw cycles, still really heavy as it uses the same aggregate as concrete. Solid but may flex rather than breaking or cracking. They use it to repair concrete on bridges and mabye a small ammount of flexibilty would be good.

My worry is what kind of heat does this stuff give off when it cures and will that be good for the fiberglass?

nhdory · Post by **nhdory** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:53 pm

This is a dead thread. I spoke with a number of folks about what to do re this issue and ended up sealing the ballast in with high strength concrete and tried to make every effort to get it deep down inside the hull to fill all the voids. Another CL owner made a great suggestion re filling other voids.

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