Another question - Sailmaster 22

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:18 pm

Having spent great amounts of time pondering the choice of the next design I now know one thing for sure - I'm confused and need to take some time tocarefully consider the decision, both on the water and sitting on the wharf with something cold and foamy........ There are any number
of boats that could fill the bill but I haven't seen any that truly felt like the right design.

In that light, it may well be time to purchase an "in between" boat and came across an S&S designed Sailmaster 22. I have not looked at the boat but from what I've seen on line (a large portion of which has Dutch subtitles) and could find in english to read, this is a solidly built, attractive design. Performnce isn't great in light air but there are always some trade offs.

Anyone have any though or experience with these boats? The few reviews I've come across seem to stress their rugged construction.

Never thought I would look at soemthing in this size range (beyond the H 12 1/2 and Fish) and be impressed by the lines, but she's old S&S so....

Thanks for your responss.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:00 pm

Tom,

I take it you've found the Dutch "Sailmaster Club" website? If not, you should have a look. Of course the photos are language-free, but also in the "Historie" section, many of the documents are in English, or at least partial English.

http://www.sailmasterclub.nl/site/

I've owned a Dutch-built boat that was constructed at DeVries-Lentsch (where I believe they built the Seafarer ones), and I can say the glass work was very tidy, and the woodwork nice too (some potential glue issues with a wooden spar, but likely full lengths of clear spruce).

Rachel

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:20 pm

Rachel,

I came across their site last night but have not had any luck opening the history pages. Might be getting biased ahead of myself but have to say the lines are about the prettiest (to my eye)I've seen on a "modern" design in the size range. I have always liked the Typhoon but these have more of a big boa look.

One thing that appeals to me is the wooden spars and exstensive brightwork - from a distance no one would know I had joined the "dark side".

Going to see the boat on Wed morning.

Tom

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:40 pm

Tom,

Good luck! I bet you'll fall in love - I know I did. They were always a bit too small for what I had in mind, but lovely, lovely boats. Fingers crossed it still has the wooden spars and is in the kind of shape you are looking for.

Rache

PS: I wonder if these direct links will help to you get to the history pages? (Or, you might try using a different browser than you have been.)

http://www.sailmasterclub.nl/site/index.php?id=6

http://www.sailmasterclub.nl/site/index.php?id=9

http://www.sailmasterclub.nl/site/index.php?id=15

http://www.sailmasterclub.nl/site/index.php?id=16

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:15 pm

Rachel,

I've seen pictures and know she has her wooden spars and the original configuration of wood trim. It's all going to come down to hull/deck and centerboard condition. So long as the lumber in the spars is sound reglueing joints doesn't bother me(not sur if it's solid or hollow) - I reglued approximately 60% of the S mast (and that one is an 8 stave, 45 ft, tapered hollow spar with a 36" (?) offset built into it above the spreaders.

Size is an issue for me also but I'm looking at this as a short term acquisition - sail her for a season or so while I pay more attention to the various designs I've been considering and wait for the right one to come along. Providing her condition is decent, and given the asking price, I'm sure I would be able to find a new caretaker if/when I decide to move back up in size.

Tom

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:22 pm

Beautiful boat. Never saw a boat with wood spars and glass coamings (I assume those are the later models). The hull is beautiful and appears to sail flawlessly like all the other S&S designs but I don't like it because that companionway hatch is big enough for my mother in law to get through.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:50 pm

Dennis,

Many (most? all?) of the DeVries-Lentsch built (Seafarer and others)boats have the extra-wide companionway. As I understand it (and this fits with the boats I've seen), the hull and deck were glassed together at the hull/deck joint, and then the bulkheads were brought in through the companionway to be installed afterwards. That would explain the width (Charlie J did narrow the companionway in his Seafarer Meridian to 24").

I have read that some of the cabin-tops (Javelin?)were in two pieces - and the seam later covered up by the eyebrow - for the same reason, but I have not seen evidence of that on the boats I've looked at.

Rachel

cmartin · Post by **cmartin** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:21 pm

Nice looking boats. Here's a review, be it a bit basic: http://www.spinsheet.com/useddisp.asp?rk=51

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:20 pm

I used to sail on a Sailmaster 22. IMO it is a lot of boat for 22 feet.
A few of us in DC used to play hooky during lunch-time and go out for a quick sail on the Potomac. With the three of us plus the owner, we'd have a blast. The design is timeless and very functional and, as has been mentioned, the glass work is top notch.

Stubrow · Post by **Stubrow** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:05 pm

Here's what I have:
http://www.sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_ID=267
As an aside, I was wondering if anyone knew if the SAILMASTER 26 is really the same as the Seafarer Polaris.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:28 am

Stubrow,

I have forgotten the exact details, but they are basically the same boat; both built in Holland. I believe the later Sailmasters (Mark II?) had some ballast added. Sorry I can't remember in more detail.

Stubrow · Post by **Stubrow** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:47 pm

Thanks. You truly are the 'master'. (among others here).

rb

Clinton B Chase · Post by **Clinton B Chase** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:59 am

I am keeping my eyes peeled for a Sailmaster too. Two things that I would add/change I am glad to see that others have done in those links to the SM22 club in the Netherlands: add a wooden toerail, make the ports smaller (they are too dominant as single, long ports; one or two and definitely one in the forward face of cabin sides is better). Some added a wood eyebrow and that looks pretty good.

So, does anyone know if these boats had GRP molded toerails and how one would go about making them into wood?

Clint

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:45 am

Tom - did you see the boat yesterday? How was she? Are you buying her?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:04 pm

That's what I've been wondering too!

(And did you have your camera along... )

R.

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:41 pm

I spent about an hour going over the boat yesterday. Hull looks good, decks appear serviceable though tough to really say when it's in the 20s out and everything is frozen solid. The cabinspace is a restoration project. Most of the original cabnietry is in place so it can be used as templates. Rig appeared decent - boom looked fine, the mast has a few spots that may require a bit of epoxy in surface stress cracks but nothing severe.

The mahogany coamings have not seen varnish in many years and will need replacement in the future but appear servicable for the time being.

The mahogany toerails are a mess. Stbd is badly patched but could be lived with for a season I guess. Port has a section in the center that is very tough and it all needs to be replaced. This is one of those "if you're doing one side it doesn;t make sense not to do it all since it does all need to be replaced......" My shop skills are modest and I don;t feel I have the expertise to manufacture the rails given their profile, bevel and taper.
Checked with the boatbuilder who redid my S and got a veryrough estimate - which is more than I am willing to put into a "short term" boat.

I liked the boat and am still toying with the idea but not sure how I will proceed. I've passed the info onto another person on this board who has expressed intest in the class - she may be a better "fit" for him and his skills.

I've got a few pics but no idea how to post them. If someone who knows how to post pics PM's me with an email I will galdly send them the pics so they can be posted and folks can see Sandpiper.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:53 pm

Tom,

Those in-between boats are tough calls, aren't they? Several times I've considered a boat that was in "serviceable" (kind of) shape "just for now," but then I find that I start thinking about all of the boat's needs, and next thing you know I'd be working over the temporary one just as much as a more long-term one.

It was nice of you to pass the information along to someone else in case they might be a good fit for it (when you're still considering it yourself).

Here's a link to instructions for photo posting on this site. I'd love to see it!

http://plasticclassicforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4068

Rachel

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:01 pm

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:05 pm

The summer pictures were supplied by current owner - the cold, bleak dreary ones I took yesterday.

Tarp is on the cabintop in summer ones due to leaks in the ports which are removed for repair in some of the later pics.

Getting this to work entitles me to another Dark N Stormy,,,,,,

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:51 pm

Sorry to hear that the boat wasn't in the shape you hoped for. I actually bought an old Sailmaster 22 four years ago for the same reason, as an in between boat, but it ended up taking me 4 years to actually get around to getting it in the water. I can tell you though, the boat is totally worth the effort of restoring it. I still have a lot of projects left on the boat (brightwork, electrical), but I was shocked at how many people either recognized the boat or had complimentary words about it.

Sounds like the boat your looking at had a lot of similar problems to mine, but I was lucky that someone had replaced my toerails before I purchased her. Its too bad that the interior sounds like it is beyond repair, I think the quality/materials that were put into the original are definetly something that you don't see today and make the boat unique as a 22 footer.

Its a sweet little boat once you get it in the water, and I can't wait until this summer to spend more time using it, and less time in the boatyard working on it. I have posted lots of pictures and details about the restoration on my blog, www.sailmaster22.blogspot.com

Andrew

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:20 pm

Funny, I just had Dark 'n' Stormys with some friends a few evenings ago, after not having one for years. With the black paint job, you could name the boat "Dark 'n' Stormy :)

I sure recognize a lot of details on that boat in common with other Dutch-built Seafarers. Certain bronze fittings, etc.

I'm not usually very fond of changing original ports, but I could definitely see that boat with two per side (not that it looks bad now).

But yeah, it's such a pretty thing that I could see wanting to fix it up and then having two projects. It would be hard to let a boat like that go, like maybe you could do with a Pearson 26 or something that isn't as unique and would suffer neglect a little better.

Thanks for taking the time to figure out how to post pics!

Oh... did you take any photos below?

Edited to add: Welcome to the forum, Andrew. I just skimmed your blog and so now I know what the boat looks like belowdecks. I look forward to reading it more in-depth.

Rachel

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:49 pm

I did something wrong with the camera and lost pics I took of the deck and cabin space.

Andrew has received a sound cursing for linking his blog - I was somewhat comfortable in my decsion to pass on this and am now thinking it all over again..... Do I really need a larger boat? Between houses, pets, yards and a number of other commitments maybe a 22 foot mini-cruiser is ample.....? Maybe the someone I forwarded the listing info to will decide this is the boat for him and save me from another restoration project.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:01 am

Maybe the 22' would work for you, depending on your plans. I have the feeling that for most people - unless they are going to live aboard, go off cruising, or do quite a bit of coastal cruising with more than one person - a boat like that would work really well. Day and evening sails, weekend "camp" cruises....

It might "suddenly" start to feel like a nice-sized, doable project if you weren't also planning to have another, larger boat project.

Of course I'm only musing, and my ideas might not match up to yours at all.

Rachel

Chris Campbell · Post by **Chris Campbell** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:58 am

No question that a smaller boat presents smaller projects, which is, to me, a good thing. For me the question would be "what does this boat not do that I wish it would?" - and then work through whether any of those things were unforgivable.

From the blog photos it looks like there is, or nearly is, standing headroom, is that possible?

She is a lovely little boat, no question!

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:52 am

Heard from the current owner today - he had someone else coming in to look at the boat this afternoon. I haven't heard how that went.

Right now I'm waiting to hear back on a trailer quote - I want to look at the price of the entire "package" since the current trailer is not anything I care to tangle with. Also looking into another boat that I've seen online in Ct - supposedly in good to excellent condition. By the time I replace the rails and trailer .........

dee · Post by **dee** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:45 pm

I'm curious as to the hull number. This boat started out to be a Seafarer Kestrel, notice the forward end of the cove stripe is the Seafarer emblem.
I call them Seamasters. The hulls are left over from Seafarer production and were used to make the early Sailmasters. I have one too. 1962, #78

dee

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:11 pm

I don't recall seeing a builder's plate when I looked at the boat so no idea as to hull number. It is still available, owne has relisted her on Craigslist/Rhode Island - and raised the price $500. Of all the boats I've looked at, this is the one that sticks in my mind for some reason. Just wish it didn't need the toerails immediately. Coamings are also in need of replacement bt could be serviceable for a few seasons.

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:46 pm

Looked at a Flicka 20 today - very nice boat. Amazing amount of cabin space for a 20 fter. However my mind still keeps going back to the Sailmaster. One came up about an hour from here so I'm going to look tomorrow. Sounds as if the boat is in good to veryod condition - I'm very interested in seeing her. I'll post some info and pics tomorrow.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:33 am

Good luck - I hope she's in nice shape!

Camera's going with... right? :D

Seems like most of what gave you pause on the other Sailmaster was her condition, so it will be interesting to see how one in good shape strikes you (providing she is).

Rachel

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:31 pm

I'm on my way out for the evening but want to post the pics before I go.
Structurally the boat seems sound but ALL of the finish work - brightwork, deck, topsides and bottom need to be completely redone. As such the asking price of 6500 seems way out of line to me. I'll post a more detailed listing of my thoughts tonight or tomorrow.

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:37 pm

sorry about the last pic - copied the wrong one. They're my 12 year old Gordon Setter, Sawyer, and his nemesis Bert (9 month old Maine Coon kitten).

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:57 pm

Thanks for the photos, Tom.

That does seem to be stretching "very good" condition just a tad.

Does the skirting come with? ;)

Rachel

(PS: Not trying to make light of your hopes for her to be in better shape, and thanks for posting photos. If I had a nickel for every "excellent" boat that I drove to see....)

Clinton B Chase · Post by **Clinton B Chase** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:31 pm

Tom the latest Sailmaster is way overpriced. It seems like the previous boat is still a good deal!

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:42 pm

today's boat has some definite pluses;

1) exterior and interior woodwork and cabinetry is all present and in solid condition (though the original blue countertops would have to go)
2) 2 suits of sails - one late 90's, 2nd since 2000
3) engine is a '99 - supposedly low hours
4)the centerboard pin has been replaced (talked with Annapolis Classic Watercraft since they have worked on several of these and they have said this is a miserable project and a common design failure)
5)areas around chainplates showed no signs of crazing/spidering and all hardware appears well bedded
6)this boat has the port in the front end of the cabin house
7) the rudder shoe is solid where it attaches to the keel

negatives;
1) there is not one square inch of finish ANYWHERE on the boat that does not need to be stripped off - bottom, topsides, deck, brightwork, or rig. The masthead - though apparently sound -has no finish at all on it. The topsides have so much paint on them that they have developed an "overpainted" textured look.
2) it's filthy which, given my expectation of very good condition, totally jaundiced my opinion of what I was looking at.
3)owner has put a lot of time into projects on the boat that he sees as adding value, but I don't. Such as crafting wooden shell blocks for the boat - which are nicely done but not appropriate to the design. Same sort of an issue with a beautifully done cockpit grate - that is made out of pressure treated lumber- which would have to go. (I'm a barefoot sailor and have dealt with splinters from PT material on a home deck)
4)cabin cushions are present but mismatched material and need to be recovered, I'll give things the benefit of the doubt and assume the foam is reuseable.

The boat appears solid and complete but is significantly ovepriced given the neglected finishes. A Ct boat in "restored" condition, with a recent trailer, sold in the fall for 5000. Another, without a trailer and also in NE, sold for 1800. Quote from Triad for trailer is 3750 pus freight.

I like the design enough that I intend to talk to a soda blaster on Monday to get a guestimated price to do the entire boat - I'm assuming that topsides and deck can be soda blasted as well as the bottom. Figure I'll then go back to the seller with the information about other boats along with stripping estimates etc to support an offer and see what happens.

Anyone have a good cost estimate for sodablasting per foot? Awlgrip?
(I realize most of the Awlgrip price nightmare is based on degree of prep work required so can vary greatly by the boat)

I can't help but envision a Sailmaster in a deep maroon with ivory decks, a shark white bottom, ivory sail covers, and sparkling varnish ..........

Clinton B Chase · Post by **Clinton B Chase** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:06 am

Tom Javor wrote:
I can't help but envision a Sailmaster in a deep maroon with ivory decks, a shark white bottom, ivory sail covers, and sparkling varnish ..........

Yup, that would be awesome.

Keep us posted. I am in too much limbo to move on a boat and am considering going into pro. boatbuilding full time which will, ironically, probably make it more difficult to fit in a similar project. I'll live vicariously for now. It sounds like, Tom, you've got mainly a cosmetic redo and that is more what you wanted. Sounds good. Will also be interested in soda blasting $.

Clint

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:31 am

I came across an online pricesheet for a yard in Ct and their soda blasting cost was 12.65/sq ft but I'm sure it would be higher off site.
Have sent a quote request to a loca shop -telling them I'm still in a budgeting phase and am just looking for a cost for planing purposes.

See what comes back - if the pricing "fits" it's certainly alot more attractive idea than weeks sanding. I'm sure everything would still need to be gone over, old gouges filled and faired etc but at least the layers and layes of old paint would be gone.

dee · Post by **dee** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:09 pm

I think the other one looked like it was in better shape from the photos, plus an older version with bronze hardware.
dee

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:22 pm

as I've thought about the two of them over the last day I'm coming to the same conclusion. Sandpiper (1st boat) does need the rails but something about that boat just felt better and I'm not even considering the price.

Sandpiper is a 64, Guiding Light (complete with the soap's logo lighthouse painted on the transom) is a 66 but somehow felt different in hindsight.

I could not locate a builder's plate yesterday so I'm wondering if this was built by another yard or if the construction methods had chenged in the 2 years?

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:47 pm

dee,

Doesn't it look like the second boat does have bronze hardware? Or am I misinterpreting something? I had started a post about how the second boat was probably built in the US and not Holland (see below), but then when I went to look at the photos of the second boat again, I do see a few details that say "Holland" to me (some deck hardware, the cabin locker latch holes, etc.). I'll have to go back and compare again later.

I had written the following, but after looking again I think it may not apply. But I'll leave it in for the record:

***************

Tom,

I'm not sure if this info directly applies to the Sailmasters, as I'm more familiar with the Meridians and their direct sisters, but Seafarer brought their boat production over to the US from Holland in (or around) 1965. Boats before 1965 were built in Holland; whereas boats in 1967 (and I think 1966) were built in the US.

At least on the Meridians, there was quite a bit of difference in construction technique and hardware between the US-built boats and the Dutch-built boats (I think the molds were brought over but some were changed as the years marched on). I wonder if that's what you're seeing on the Sailmasters?

(And, as dee mentioned, the first Sailmaster you looked at does have the Seafarer cove stripe arrow.)

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:31 pm

something is definitely different between the two though I am not positive
what it is that makes me feel that way. boats - with the exception of the cove stripe , the presence of a wooden engine hatch on #2 and the forward port - are essentially identical.

I got an approximate price from local soda blaster to do the entire boat for in the vicinity of $2000.00. Bit more than I thought it would be, had guessed around 1500. Actually not all that bad when I realize that I am sure I would kill at last one sander in the process and I'm sure several 100 bucks of paper. Plus the added benefit that it would DONE, the mess cleaned up, and I could dedicate my time to more enjoyable parts of the project. Cost could go up or down a bit depending on final quote.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:06 pm

Soda blasting is expensive from the standpoint of the investment required to purchase the equipment and make it a profitable venture. The cost of the blasting media isn't inconsequential either. I think that is what keeps the cost so high.

I used/am using approximately 20 scraper blades ($6 a piece) to do a beamy 40+ foot boat. About 15 hours of tough work though so if you want to get into the more interesting part of the project maybe it isn't worth the cost savings.

I did my boat with sandpaper but it is quicker and much cheaper to use the scraper. IMHO of course.

...
[edit]

oh, and my sander lasted for several more years of heavy sanding after that. Keep it clean and it will go for awhile.

Tom Javor · Post by **Tom Javor** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:47 pm

If I can get the boat at the right price I would most likely go head with the soda blasting - at first glance it seem pricey but the job gets done completely and the hull should be in much condition than if I end up getting sloppy and gouging it etc.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:17 am

I hand scraped the bottom of my boat to remove the bulk of the old, hard and chipping paint. It took a couple full days approximately, I really didn't keep track, nor want to at the time. From testing sections I know it was faster than sanding, a lot less mess and definitely healthier. I had a tarp under the boat and was inside. I collected 7 gallons of chips off the tarp before I went to sanding. I can't even imagine how many gallons of paint that would be in the can.

My opinions as follows:

- paying for sand blasting or related media then finish sand- easiest, safest and most expensive

- sanding - makes a mess, unhealthy or at least very uncomfortable, slow

- chipping then sanding - the best of the do it yourself methods, but surely not fun

- chemical stripper then sand - messy, unhealthy, and time saved, if any, not worth it

Conclusion: There is no great way unless you have some extra money to part with.

dee · Post by **dee** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:36 pm

I've never seen an original hatch that goes on the front of the engine compartment. The plans don't show it either.

The bow chocks look like the aluminum ones I bought for my boat as I couldn't find the bronze originals. My boats toe rails were redone by a previous owner and the bronze bow chocks and genoa T tracks were replaced with aluminum. The chocks were replaced with perco junk.

The winches on the second boat pictured are bronze.

When production of the boats were brought to the U.S. They brought along the rest of the bronze hardware. As they ran out of bronze they went to aluminum.

The earlier boat pictured is certainly made in Holland as it has the Seafarer logo in the front of the cove stripe, and in my opinion is a better made boat. It still may have an aluminum dorade though. Mine does too but it's mounted in a bronze ring that has the Seafarer logo on it as well as some of the other hardware does also.

Plastic Classic Forum

Another question - Sailmaster 22

Another question - Sailmaster 22

website

thanks Rachel

Sailmaster

Sailmaster 26

Sailmaster search

update

pics - maybe.....

amazing what a Dark 'n Stormy does for my patience...

I tried

still thinking.....

Sailmaster 22

not sure

another Sailmaster.....

today's Sailmaster

whoops

thoughts

Re: thoughts

soda blasting

you may be right.

blasting