Old Newbie post

[KITTIEanME]

Well the pictures didn,t go thru. Sorry but I copied and pasted(I thought) so I,ll have to try again on another post at another time. TOM Alright something happened afterall TOM

[BALANCE]

Tom, I sailed an O'day Tempest for many years, near and far. She too had a well for the engine. The only bummer about it was, as someone else mentioned, the tendendcy for the engine to overheat with the top down. I even installed vents but that didn't do the trick. The best solution was to just point the throttle at the sky and that kept it ajar enough to let the engine breath. you could also reach in easily to increase or decrease speed. I also had a line attached to the backstay with a hook on the end to hold the top up if I needed to maneuver - or be ready to (using it and the tiller at the same time helps to turn on a dime). Never had the 'cloud' issues. That could have been just too much oil in the gas?

On longer stretches when forced to motor, I would take a cockpit cushion and use it to keep the top open and diffuse the sound. I can't imagine the well flooding but a picture of the well might be enlightening. I had a 6 hp engine and there was maybe 2-3 inches of room around it (in the hole). The rest of the well was wide enough to house two flat gas tanks (I think they were 3 or 6 gallon?)

The only other downside was that because you could not haul it out when not in use...well, you know how that plays out.







Hope this wasn't too much information. :)

[Chris Campbell]

Hi Tom,

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your new boat. She's a pretty little thing, and from what I read by sailors of small Alberg designs (predominantly the Sea Sprite 23 and Alberg 22, although there are others), you should be very happy sailing her!

I'll chime in with my experience of an engine in a well, just to further muddy the waters. My "engine-welled" boat was a Roue R/20 - pictures available here. The motor in the well was a 6hp two stroke (a couple of them - one seized, I suspect due to seawater coming up the shaft and corroding the bearings while it was stored, but I don't know for sure) which was a little heavy for moving, but not impossible. I kept the motor under the cockpit floor, accessed behind the companionway ladder - essentially where an inboard would be, if there were one. I didn't want to leave it in the well for a number of reasons: corrosion would have killed the motor faster (I think); she was prettier with it out (vanity!); and she was faster with it out (also vanity?). I sailed on and off the mooring almost exclusively, only using the motor when the wind died (which was regularly - Halifax in summer has a great sea-breeze, but as dusk falls, you're on your own most days).

When the motor was stowed I had a cover for the well-hole which sealed and made her bottom pretty smooth, and kept water out. When I installed the motor in the well if there was any chop at all I could expect to take seawater up through the hole and into the lazarette - as she pitched back it brought the combined waterline and quarterwave up enough to slosh over. The more sloshing the faster it came in, since the added weight of the freshly-arrived seawater lowered her stern further, exacerbating the problem.

Since the boat sailed like a dream, I found the arrangement essentially satisfactory. I think if I were to go back to that boat now I would get a smaller motor to make it easier to stow and deploy - I imagine that a 2 or 3 hp would have pushed her along fast enough for getting back to port in dead calm. The 6 pushed her at over hull speed - why bother? I would also come up with a way to stow the motor that would allow the use of a 4-stroke. They need to be laid out in a particular manner, and that's not so easy in a boat which can spend long periods off of level. I don't exactly know how I'd go about that, but I'd spend some time on it. It would probably mean arranging a location where the motor could remain semi-upright, yet stowed in an out-of-the-way location.That would also eliminate the suspected cause of the first motor's demise by eliminating the possibility of sea water migrating up the shaft to the engine bearings, I think.

I expect you can guess what my opinion is vis-a-vis getting rid of the well in favour of a stern-mount: no way! It'll wreck the lines of your boat, and encourage you to leave the motor out in plain site. Drag it down below and leave it there, bringing it out only when needed, is my vote.

Cheers,

Chris

[KITTIEanME]

Thanks for your input on the motor well. Both boats,the Tempest & S/V Swallow look beautiful and well maintained when they were in your care. Both boats have a outboard well that is centered on the stern and I wouldn't have any problems with this arrangement. My Kittiwake has its outboard well in an opening in the portside stern. The well has a plug for the opening and is pinned closed with holes through the high lip surrounding the well when the outboard is not being used. Like I said a motor well in the center would be OK with me,but thats not the case with Kittiwakes. I do intend to leave the well as is because of my inexperience with the boat. I need to see the pros & cons of the portside well before doing anything that changes the original design of the hull. I can foresee problems with lifting the motor and storing it while singlehanding & also with the rear compartment collecting water up to the lip surrounding the well. I also want to see how much drag the motor will produce when on a starboard tack. I am not the go fast type sailer but it would be frustrating to go from a port to starboard tack and lose a lot of momentum or pointing ability. I agree with you about upsetting the looks of the design but I love to sail and I may have to accept that appendage on the stern. I wish I could build some kind of fake boomkin that would cover it. I know, I know impossible & stupid idea. TIM! I have read the rules for the forum and know this is one complete paragraph and should be many but I am still learning and have deleted a few posts trying to start another paragraph. Help me out if you can. It is probably a simple stroke for you. I,ll try to post some pictures at a later time. TOM

[Rachel]

Tom,

Your boat looks great - I hope you'll show us more :)

I'm glad to read that you'll give the well a try; I think the outboard-powered, fiberglass Marieholm Folkboats also have an off-center well (they have an outboard rudder), and they are certainly thought of as good sailers.

The plug should work for when you don't have the motor installed. If you have a problem with the well filling when you are underway with the motor in place, here are a couple of ideas, both from James Baldwin (who sails a Pearson Triton):

1) A plate that "permanently" attaches to the shaft of the motor and fills the well opening when the motor is installed. This is on a motor well that was added to a Taipan 28:



More on this mod here:
http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/outboard.htm

2) A set of sliding doors that mount on the top of the well box, inside the well. This is on a well added to an Alberg 35:



More about it here:
http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/saga.htm

To make a new paragraph, just press the key that's marked "return" or "enter" a couple of times. That will give you one empty line and then a new paragraph. It's usually in the middle row, all the way over to the right hand side. Probably larger than a standard letter key.

Welcome to the forum :)

Rachel

[KITTIEanME]

Thanks Rachel, I was thinking about producing a fiberglass cover that conforms to the 5 Hp honda that came with the boat. I have a lot of sailboat projects to do over the winter if I want to sail the Kittiwake next season. I am going to see what problems ,if any, I have with the well as it is now and have copied your photos to my printer to reference later.
Now as you can see with your instructions I have two paragraphs. I had somehow been trying to use the TAB key giving me only 5 or so spaces and and messing things up with the original posts. I don't know why I couldn,t figure how to start another paragraph(so simple). I have been using the computor for awhile but only for reference purposes and I rarely send E-Mails and thought ENTER was used for signing on or entering sites and then using the mouse, so THANKS! TOM

[Rachel]

We'll have you up into the 1990s in no time ;) <----wink

If you want to separate your paragraphs, just hit enter a second time and it will give you a blank line in between, for even better readability.

Enter/return does a lot of different things. In some cases, it's just like a "carriage return" on typewriter, and at other times it will do whatever the default thing is on a page. So if you type in a search term and there is a "Go" button, you can click on the button with your mouse, OR hit "enter." Same with Save and a bunch of other things where there is a pretty obvious choice.

One of the things I had to get my head around with computers and the web is that there are usually two or three ways to do any one given thing. Same results but different ways to do it. So on web pages, there may be menus at the top, then more at the side, plus links in the body of the page and etc. All leading to the same thing.

And then for functions, you can click something with a mouse; hit a key; or maybe type something in - all with the same end result. And then there's right-clicking vs. pull down menus, and..... It can be a bit mind-boggling, that's for sure.

It has gotten better though. When I was in college and using an early word-processing program, I remember that it took about twelve steps just to save your work! They actually had paper posters taped up around the room to remind people of all the steps. "Visiword" Boy was that a pain.

Rachel

[KITTIEanME]

The mistake I made was getting my children to do the complicated operations(in my mind) and not learn how to do them. Like I said I have mostly used my computor for reference only. The archives in this forum are way above a lot of the others and tells me that The adminstrators and everyone that offers their advice to questions asked are exceptional in their knowledge & abilities and I like that. TOM

[BALANCE]

Tom, you got me curious and I went looking on the internet for other Kittiwakes and came upon this sweetheart:

http://www.sailingtexas.com/skittiwake23101.html (click on that <)

[Shark]

Tom,

Here's a link to a website which may be helpful: http://www.kittiwake23registry.com/

I understand your concerns regarding your outboard. My boat has a transom-mounted outboard which must be removed and locked in the lazarette when racing (Class Rules). It can be a hassle if the weather is rough or if your motor is particularly heavy.

My suggestion would be to go with what you have and see if you can live with it.

If you can't, perhaps you could get a smaller lighter motor to make things easier providing it would do the job for you. I believe Folkboats use a side-mounted outboard bracket which might possibly work for you. The motor is stored when not actually in use.

I used to race on a Viking 28 which had a centre mounted outboard in a well. However, the well was large enough so that the motor could be tilted up and out of the water to reduce drag. A pair of doors sealed the opening when the motor was not in use. I doubt you have room for this type of arrangement though.

Good luck with your new boat.

[KITTIEanME]

Balance, that Kittiwake 23 is really a great restoration and is beautiful. I found that particular boat a while back and immediatly put it on my favorites list. The seller had a website set up for the sale and it really had a lot of photos but is no longer active so I assume the boat has been sold. I sure appreciate the heads up though, thanks.

Shark, you hit the nail on the head so to speak and I cannot imagine myself wrestling the 5 hp Honda from the outboard well (with no stern rail) while the boat is bouncing around. I am not going to race so I can leave the engine in the well and that solves one problem.

I have already registered my boat on the registry site. The site is really nice as it is documenting Kittiwakes still sailing. My particular boat had not been registered on the site before.

The other problems I can foresee is how much water collects inside the compartment while sailing in rough weather and how much drag the engine causes if I don,t remove the engine from the well. I am leaving the well as is for now because I need to experience the sailing characteristics of the boat before altering the original design.

I am going to try to post some photos again later. TOM