Hail Tritonians:
My 1962 No.266 has been in my back yard since fall, for a complete renovation. One problem I've discovered, is how to re-track the jib lead.
Apparently most Tritons had two separate tracks port and starboard...a small and large track for the Genoa. I have remove them from the deck in order to replace the core and paint...both tracks have caused cabin leaks and delamination.
I would like to install one continuous 5 1/2' track on the side decks, to accomodate roller furling.....however it is difficult to fine a clear, unobstructed lead for both a small jib and a 150% Genoa. The ideal placement woould seem to be the top of the toe rail outside the life-lines and shrouds. A 1" track would have to bend to the slow curve of the hull and I am not that is possible.
I'm sure that this problem has a hundred creative solutions. How have other owners solved this problem?
Jim H, sailing No.266, 'Hearts Ease'
jib lead track
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George ( C&C 40, Triton )
Hi Jim,
I've experimented over the years with different Jib / Genoa track combinations and locations on my Pearson Triton. In the final analysis I went with two 18" pieces of track on the foredeck for my 110% Blade Jib ( you don't need that ). A pair of 2 foot lengths of track on the toerail for my 150% Genoa and the original 4 foot lengths of bronze track back by the winches for the 170% Genoa and the spinnaker.
At one time I had a pair of 8' lengths of track on the toerail that went from slightly forward of the doghouse all the way back to just in front of the original bronze track. This forward section covered my working Jib ( not the Blade ) and the 150%. The 170% was on the bronze track. This system was elegant, simple to use, and infinately adjustable. Great for racing too. The only problem was that it leaked and over time there was no way to keep it from leaking. This seemed to stem from the fact that the underside of the toerail on the Triton was too irregular to get a really good seal over long lengths of track. Fixing a leak meant removing all 22 1/4-20 bolts and re-bedding the while thing. A royal pain! This is most likely going to be a problem for you if you go with the 5.5' section of track.
My final system has three separate lengths of toerail track on each side of the boat and is more expensive that a single length because of the added expense of three pairs of lead blocks instead of just one. Especially if you go with heavy duty snatch blocks. Not dealing with leaks though...Priceless. My experience at least.
If you decide to go with separate track sections you can use the following methods to determine rough lead block, and therefore track center, location.
170% - Attach a string 45% of the way up the luff of the sail, let the sail fill lightly with air, and bring the string down to the toerail so that it passes over the clew ring. This should be the center of the track.
150% - Attach a string 50% of the way up the luff. Repeat as above.
100% to 110% - Attach a string 65% of the way up the luff. Repeat as above.
A more exact method is to take the boat out and somehow hold the genoa sheet to the toerail. The point at which all the luff tell tales break simultanously as you luff the boat into the wind is where the lead block, and therefore center of the track, should be.
Note: 1" track bends pretty easily to the curve of the toerail. The longer the track, the easier it bends.
Note: I do all this sort of measuring with a 100' cloth measuring tape. Very helpful around a boat for measuring all sorts of things.
Note: Things start to get really complicated if you want a system that fully covers correct lead block locations for all points of sail. This is because the proper lead block location will move forward as you come off the wind. This would argue for a single long track and is what got me in trouble in the first place :-)
Have Fun,
George
I've experimented over the years with different Jib / Genoa track combinations and locations on my Pearson Triton. In the final analysis I went with two 18" pieces of track on the foredeck for my 110% Blade Jib ( you don't need that ). A pair of 2 foot lengths of track on the toerail for my 150% Genoa and the original 4 foot lengths of bronze track back by the winches for the 170% Genoa and the spinnaker.
At one time I had a pair of 8' lengths of track on the toerail that went from slightly forward of the doghouse all the way back to just in front of the original bronze track. This forward section covered my working Jib ( not the Blade ) and the 150%. The 170% was on the bronze track. This system was elegant, simple to use, and infinately adjustable. Great for racing too. The only problem was that it leaked and over time there was no way to keep it from leaking. This seemed to stem from the fact that the underside of the toerail on the Triton was too irregular to get a really good seal over long lengths of track. Fixing a leak meant removing all 22 1/4-20 bolts and re-bedding the while thing. A royal pain! This is most likely going to be a problem for you if you go with the 5.5' section of track.
My final system has three separate lengths of toerail track on each side of the boat and is more expensive that a single length because of the added expense of three pairs of lead blocks instead of just one. Especially if you go with heavy duty snatch blocks. Not dealing with leaks though...Priceless. My experience at least.
If you decide to go with separate track sections you can use the following methods to determine rough lead block, and therefore track center, location.
170% - Attach a string 45% of the way up the luff of the sail, let the sail fill lightly with air, and bring the string down to the toerail so that it passes over the clew ring. This should be the center of the track.
150% - Attach a string 50% of the way up the luff. Repeat as above.
100% to 110% - Attach a string 65% of the way up the luff. Repeat as above.
A more exact method is to take the boat out and somehow hold the genoa sheet to the toerail. The point at which all the luff tell tales break simultanously as you luff the boat into the wind is where the lead block, and therefore center of the track, should be.
Note: 1" track bends pretty easily to the curve of the toerail. The longer the track, the easier it bends.
Note: I do all this sort of measuring with a 100' cloth measuring tape. Very helpful around a boat for measuring all sorts of things.
Note: Things start to get really complicated if you want a system that fully covers correct lead block locations for all points of sail. This is because the proper lead block location will move forward as you come off the wind. This would argue for a single long track and is what got me in trouble in the first place :-)
Have Fun,
George
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Jim H
jib lead track
Thanks George:
Your experience is very helpful. I get the feeling this is a difficult nut to crack. I'm inclined to use the toe rail for the track, if the leak problem can be solved.
The Schaefer 1" track is made with a radius machined on the mounting sufface....apparently the track can be mounted on a curved surface and or hold lots of caulking. Any experience with this track system?
Thanks for the help.
Your experience is very helpful. I get the feeling this is a difficult nut to crack. I'm inclined to use the toe rail for the track, if the leak problem can be solved.
The Schaefer 1" track is made with a radius machined on the mounting sufface....apparently the track can be mounted on a curved surface and or hold lots of caulking. Any experience with this track system?
Thanks for the help.
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George ( Triton #236 )
Hi Jim,
The toerail is really the only place to mount track on a Triton and is where the track is mounted on my boat. ( the spreaders are too big for anything else ) Also, all the toerail track that I mounted on #236 "Ca Ira" is the Schaefer T-Track ( Black ) that you are talking about. Very Good stuff and provides wonderfully smooth operation when combined with those Rostan Genoa Track Slides with the plastic rail inserts.
The problem I ran into is that the underside of the toerail on a Triton is not uniform. ( Remember that this is a hand laid fiberglass boat from a mold ) For example, when I went to mount my long single tracks there were several places where the underside of the toerail was so narrow that a 1/4 bolt wouldn't even fit and there is no way to get standard grinding equipment in there either. Sometimes just getting space for a single 1/4-20 nut was a long painful process with small hand tools. Over time this uneveness allows the bolt to come a little bit loose and then a leak starts. This leak then drains into you bookshelves, etc.
A 5.5 foot length of T-Track with end caps will have 19 1/4-20 bolts and nuts covered in bedding compound. Removing all this when a leak develops and re-bedding the whole thing is a multi-hour job and quickly loses its romance. At least it did for me.
I understand the need for a system like this if you have roller furling or if you have multiple headsails as a racer. Maybe some kind of Dremmel tool with a long flexible grinding bit could be run up underneath the toerail to smooth things out. Don't know.
If you notice, the original bronze track ends exactly before the cabin begins. This allows toerail leaks to drain into the bilge. My boat didn't even have caulking on the original toerail track - and still doesn't.
Anyway, it's a tough call as to the best way to approach this. If you go with the long track get the underside of the toerail smooth first. Good luck with your boat.
George
#236 "Ca Ira"
The toerail is really the only place to mount track on a Triton and is where the track is mounted on my boat. ( the spreaders are too big for anything else ) Also, all the toerail track that I mounted on #236 "Ca Ira" is the Schaefer T-Track ( Black ) that you are talking about. Very Good stuff and provides wonderfully smooth operation when combined with those Rostan Genoa Track Slides with the plastic rail inserts.
The problem I ran into is that the underside of the toerail on a Triton is not uniform. ( Remember that this is a hand laid fiberglass boat from a mold ) For example, when I went to mount my long single tracks there were several places where the underside of the toerail was so narrow that a 1/4 bolt wouldn't even fit and there is no way to get standard grinding equipment in there either. Sometimes just getting space for a single 1/4-20 nut was a long painful process with small hand tools. Over time this uneveness allows the bolt to come a little bit loose and then a leak starts. This leak then drains into you bookshelves, etc.
A 5.5 foot length of T-Track with end caps will have 19 1/4-20 bolts and nuts covered in bedding compound. Removing all this when a leak develops and re-bedding the whole thing is a multi-hour job and quickly loses its romance. At least it did for me.
I understand the need for a system like this if you have roller furling or if you have multiple headsails as a racer. Maybe some kind of Dremmel tool with a long flexible grinding bit could be run up underneath the toerail to smooth things out. Don't know.
If you notice, the original bronze track ends exactly before the cabin begins. This allows toerail leaks to drain into the bilge. My boat didn't even have caulking on the original toerail track - and still doesn't.
Anyway, it's a tough call as to the best way to approach this. If you go with the long track get the underside of the toerail smooth first. Good luck with your boat.
George
#236 "Ca Ira"
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Tim
- Shipwright Extraordinaire
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Since there's generally pretty decent access to the underside of the molded toerail on the Triton, it you really want a successful track installation there I would suggest packing the inverted U-shaped void beneath the rail with thickened epoxy, pressing it tightly into the area to ensure a good bond and no air pockets. If you were to fill the area flush in this manner, then you would have a much better chance of success securing the track well.
It would be nice to grind a flat on the top of the rail, but the thickness of the glass there is not cast in stone, so there's no way to know if there's sufficient material to absorb the loss. On a couple different Tritons, I have seen significantely different amounts of fiberglass here--on #100, there was plenty (see the photo just below). On #381, it was definitely less. Alternatively, you could build up a small section to create a flatter surface to which to bolt the track. The flatter the bearing surface, the more potential success in keeping the arrangement leak-free.
This is generally what your toerail looks like when cut open (on left of photo). How well the tabbing beneath is pressed into the void is a significant factor in terms of whether or not you could grind the top flat:
I like to drill the bolt holes undersized and then tap them to accommodate the 1/4-20 bolts, and also mill a small countersink at deck level to form a little reservoir of excess sealant right at the bolthole where it is needed most. Since you're starting anew, I recommend also overboring each hole, then filling with thickened epoxy so that when you drill for the actual fastener you have a solid plug of epoxy around the hole, so any future leaks will simply run right through without damaging the deck core.
The genoa track is one of the most susceptible places for leaks because the direction of the designed strain tends to pull the track up--imperceptibly, perhaps, but repeated instances of this strain, over time, tend to loosen the sealant bond. You may always need to rebed the tracks every several years, depending on use.
Seems like a lot of work for that 1-2" gain in outboard direction. That's why I installed my new tracks inside the toerail, flat on the deck, even though I once had visions of mounting on the toerail. Flat on the deck, just inboard enough to allow the cars to move, works absolutely fine.
It would be nice to grind a flat on the top of the rail, but the thickness of the glass there is not cast in stone, so there's no way to know if there's sufficient material to absorb the loss. On a couple different Tritons, I have seen significantely different amounts of fiberglass here--on #100, there was plenty (see the photo just below). On #381, it was definitely less. Alternatively, you could build up a small section to create a flatter surface to which to bolt the track. The flatter the bearing surface, the more potential success in keeping the arrangement leak-free.
This is generally what your toerail looks like when cut open (on left of photo). How well the tabbing beneath is pressed into the void is a significant factor in terms of whether or not you could grind the top flat:
I like to drill the bolt holes undersized and then tap them to accommodate the 1/4-20 bolts, and also mill a small countersink at deck level to form a little reservoir of excess sealant right at the bolthole where it is needed most. Since you're starting anew, I recommend also overboring each hole, then filling with thickened epoxy so that when you drill for the actual fastener you have a solid plug of epoxy around the hole, so any future leaks will simply run right through without damaging the deck core.
The genoa track is one of the most susceptible places for leaks because the direction of the designed strain tends to pull the track up--imperceptibly, perhaps, but repeated instances of this strain, over time, tend to loosen the sealant bond. You may always need to rebed the tracks every several years, depending on use.
Seems like a lot of work for that 1-2" gain in outboard direction. That's why I installed my new tracks inside the toerail, flat on the deck, even though I once had visions of mounting on the toerail. Flat on the deck, just inboard enough to allow the cars to move, works absolutely fine.
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George ( Triton #236 )
Hi Tim,
That picture really shows the difficulty in getting a solid fit under the toerail. There has got to be a certain amount of flex between those two curved pieces of fiberglass. The joint works over time and then... leak.
Good idea to just put the track inboard a little bit. Oversizing the holes and filling with solid glass of course. I like it.
George
That picture really shows the difficulty in getting a solid fit under the toerail. There has got to be a certain amount of flex between those two curved pieces of fiberglass. The joint works over time and then... leak.
Good idea to just put the track inboard a little bit. Oversizing the holes and filling with solid glass of course. I like it.
George