Glissando's Toe Rail

[David]

I am interested in adapting this idea to my Bristol. A couple of questions come to mind:
1) Is the outside covering board that extends down onto the hull removable in the case of needing repairs or is it epoxied in place? In fact would it make much difference if a repair was needed?
2) How did the butt joints work out? In retrospect, did they give you any trouble and do you wish you had scarfed them instead? Did you do anything special at the butt joints to keep them aligned and strong?
3) Did you bullnose the lower edge of the outside covering board or leave a sharp angle? How does it hold up between more exposure to salt water and the inevitable bumps in docking?

Thanks,
David

[Tim]

1. The wooden rail coverings were secured with 5200, and then the void was filled with epoxy. Removal of the outer rail was not something that was anticipated, and it was not designed for such. I have a repair to effect on my rail this coming winter, so I'll have to deal with partial removal. More details once I get into it then.

2. The butt joints are just butt joints with no special treatment. The rail is cosmetic, so I wasn't worried about strength, per se. None of the joints have moved in the 3+ years since the rails were installed, but the seams (any seams, not just butts) tend to act as an avenue for water infiltration beneath the varnish. Since the two vertical (inner and outer) pieces are well bedded in 5200 and then in the epoxy filler inside, there's little or no opportunity for movement or problems in the butts. The top (cap) rail is not epoxied, but is well bedded with 5200. It hasn't shown any signs of movement or other issues at the butts.

3. The lower edge is straight with only a slight sanded radius. I always intended to do something to finish this off. I haven't done it to date because of the time factor during the off season (outdoor storage in winter is not conducive to this) and, frankly, because the rail looks good enough without it so as to not require immediate action. It has not been a problem with salt water, and I dock infrequently--and when I do dock, it's typically at a floating dock that is lower than the rail to begin with. Perhaps this winter, with the boat inside a heated shop, I will actually get around to installing the wooden rubrail (probably with bronze/brass half oval to cap it off) to trim out the bottom of the covering board, which is what I always intended.

I've been pleased with my toerails and would use the same basic technique again, though with some improvements and maybe a little more finesse. It really worked out better than I had anticipated, considering it was done "off the cuff" and with no real plan of attack. But the brighwork at the sheer really adds an important character line to the boat and makes a huge difference in appearance.

[David]

I've been pleased with my toerails and would use the same basic technique again, though with some improvements and maybe a little more finesse.

What improvements would you make? (Just picking your brain...)

David

[Tim]

Oh, I'd probably finish off the outer, bottom edge a little better, as I described above. I'd add some well-sealed trim along the inner, bottom edge (along the deck), which would look better and also help prevent water from getting in there. (This is on the list for the winter, perhaps.)

I'd take just a bit more care with the router when trimming and rounding over the caprail; got a small bit of tear out here and there. I positioned a few screws too close to the ends of boards, and got some splits during initial installation. But this is all little stuff...the basic concept, to my eye, works very nicely and has held up well with, admittedly, less maintenance and attention than it should have had. But I love it. It really sets the boat apart and adds important definition, both from the water and on deck.

[David]

Maybe this should be posted as its own thread under questions, but anyway, something that I have pondered is what is the proper way of caulking when you are running a bead (or painting an edge up to a varnished surface) in a conjunctive area to varnish, such as a toerail?

IOW, in the case of a toerail, should you varnish first and then run a bead of caulking along the juncture of the toerail and the deck? Or, should you caulk against bare wood and then mask over the caulking and varnish the toerail down to it? My own experience has been, expecially with toerails that I will get water under the varnish eventually and if the caulking is over the varnish it tends to break the bond of the caulk to the toerail.

Does this make sense?

[David]

In looking at some pics of Glissando, it sort of looks like you did not continue the angle of the stern with a covering board overlapping it, as you did on the hull? Can you give me some details as to how you handled the stern?

Thanks,

David

[Tim]

Varnished toerails look awesome, but are the bane of maintenance fanatics everywhere. Only a committment to regular maintenance and varnishing will prevent water ingress at the bottom seam...and even with that, it can be almost impossible to stay on top of it at all times.

When I first installed the toerail, I applied several coats of varnish before any caulking was applied. Then, before launching the boat (at some point in the process--I forget exactly) I caulked beneath the seam on the inside of the rail, which was approximately 1/8"+ in width by design. Subsequent coats of varnish have covered at least part of the caulking. No matter what, I still get water ingress which tends to show up only during the winter, when the water freezes and therefore lifts the varnish (as seen earlier this spring).

The varnished toerails are definitely a maintenance headache. I expect to strip them to bare wood this winter (indoors!) and address some of the issues discussed here in this thread.

One could argue that epoxy-coating the susceptible portions of the toerail before varnishing could be the answer, but I have seen terrible instances of failure in this application. Water, if it gets under the epoxy, will destroy that bond as easily as that of varnish, and then you're faced with an even worse repair prospect. I think that whatever I do, it will be based around only varnish and continued ongoing maintenance.

Despite all that, it's about impossible for me to do any varnish work during the 5+ months the boat is in the water here. The sailing season is too short, and the in-water maintenance too tedious and difficult. But then the boat gets home and it's nearly impossible outside to do any of this sort of work in the brief weather window that exists. It'll be different this year, with the barn and inside storage.

[David]

I have used Interthane Clear instead of varnish as well to try and stem the inevitable problems of a varnished toe rail. Since down here we only haul out to redo the bottom, toe rails are varnished on the boat unless you are lucky enough to have a floating slip. (Makes my knees ache just thinking about it!) The two-part LP simply added enourmous time to sanding when it lifts, although it sure looks great after it is applied :)

[David]

One of the reasons I like your toerail boxing idea is it allows me to solve the varnish lifting issue on predominently the inside of the rail that I spoke of earlier, relating to whether varnish goes under or over the cauking. I am thinking that these steps might reduce the issue:

1) Encapsulate the inside vertical board on all sides with West 207,
2) Run a bead of 5200 along the underside of the board to seal so that the bottom surface is riding on a cushion of caulk that does not extend up the inside of the board.
3) Varnish over the 207 and treat it as a well varnished toerail.

The cushion eliminates the interace between caulking and varnish yet prevents having to varnish around a hard 90 edge at the bottom of the rail (it's sealed by the caulking). Also lifts the board off the deck by a mm or so, so that you can mask a very clean edge on the deck for revarnishing. Also makes a clearer edge for repainting the deck if needed.

Oh and..

4) Make covers for the toerails so I never have to varnish them again :)

[Tim]

In looking at some pics of Glissando, it sort of looks like you did not continue the angle of the stern with a covering board overlapping it, as you did on the hull? Can you give me some details as to how you handled the stern?

I did not continue the covering board, per se, on the transom. The original toerail at the transom was nearly vertical above the hull-deck seam, while the transom features a rather sharp angle. On the side rails, the original toerail was rather flush with and of equal angle to the hull sides, so running the board over both toerail and hull (i.e. covering board) was straightforward.

At the transom, running more wood trim down the upper edge, to match the side rails, would have required some tricky joinerwork to create and smooth the angle naturally created at the hull-deck joint. Therefore, I elected to run the outer trim only just past the seam, and to not bother with a lower piece.

This hard angle, coupled with the two-directional curvature of the transom, would have made any other approach to the issue most difficult and time-consuming--time I did not have, nor that I had the inclination to spend on that particular project. The end of the transom trim is located at a logical point on the hull, and therefore looks appropriate. When the boat is in the water, there's no noticing the slight difference in design between the taffrail and toerails. Plus, there are wide scuppers located at either corner, which further create a "zone of distinction" between the various sections. Had they butted directly together at the corners, I might have been forced to approach the problem differently.

An additional difference in my taffrail treatment was that, since I installed it after both toerails were complete (with a fair bit of head-scratching over this very issue described above in the meantime), and because the section was rather small, I was able to eliminate the 5200 step. The taffrail pieces are secured with epoxy and screws, and the voids were filled at the same time, thus streamlining the process. The caprail was also attached at the same time as the sides.

[David]

Tim,

Thanks for the picture and explanation. Makes perfect sense and I was coming to the same conclusion for the Bristol's taffrail as well. I don't have the nice scuppers you do. Instead Bristol chose to cut sucppers into the towrail on the side decks opposite the winch islands. IMO this is a cheap way to do it as it causes dirty streaks down the hull from drainage. I much prefer a scupper inboard of the toerail that drains to the waterline the way your Triton drains (can I assume all Tritons drain their decks in this way?). I think the Bristol's taffrail could be trimmed to create the stern scuppers without two much difficulty and I would copy your taffrail boxing as well. I can't really come up with a better solution than your implementation.

The biggest toerail difference between the Triton and the Bristol is the Bristol uses a turned-in flange at the hull overlapping the deck joint and the toerail covers this joint and bonds it together. (This is a very typical weakness of Bristols, even big expense ones--the joint typically leaks and works.) So, there is about a 1/2 inch turn in to the hull. I would use the same covering board arrangement and fill that space plus a 1/4 or 1/2 inch or so above the existing toerail as well. It will make a wider toerail than you have done, but I think it will be attractive as yours certainly is.