Perfect Cruiser / Racer

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi All,


I am considering purchasing a boat to replace Triton #236 "Ca Ira". My wife an I have been talking about it on and off for a few weeks now and have started looking around at boats. We would like something in the 37' to 42' range that can be both cruised and raced. Cruising grounds would be the Chesapeake Bay, Bermuda, and the Carribbean Sea. Racing would be PHRF events as well as club racing. Price around 50K to 70K.

My picks so far are the C&C 40, C&C 39, C&C 38, and the Tartan 37. These give me the 6'2" headroom I need, the ability to island hop in comfort, and have good PHRF numbers.

Any thoughts or ideas?


It's not something we really really have to do, but we are coming up to the good boat buying time of the year and we are looking.


George
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"

[Dave, 397]

Hmmm...
Don't know thing one about PHRF ratings...but how 'bout a Pearson Alberg 35 or a Rhodes 41...or (mmmm....aaahhhh) an Invicta? The pics of BURGOO in 'The Lure Of Sailing' always made me feel sorta warm and squishy! In fact, somewhere or other on the net I saw pics of a very, very sexy and restored BURGOO in the flesh!
Dave

[Tim]

George,

(Long--but mostly relevant--ramble coming)

Of the boats you mention, I can highly recommend the C&C 40 based on personal experience. My dad bought a 40 new in 1980 (Kapalua) and owned it for over 20 years, during which time I actively raced and cruised aboard. It was an excellent boat in all regards. It's a big, powerful boat with the associated complexity and resultant costs for maintenance and equipment.



The boat was a very good performer--suitably quick on the race course (especially when she rated 102...for one reason or another, the rating went down to 99 when we had her--don't know what they are rated now, but I hope it's gone up), and a genuine pleasure to sail in most conditions. Ours was the centerboard version, which honestly never showed much of a disadvantage in racing and was a boon to cruising with only 4'-9" draft with the board up.

As a cruising boat, she was excellent also. The interior is spacious and comfortable, and well laid out with an opportunity for customization if desired. One or both pilot berths could easily be converted into storage, etc., for more extensive cruising. Still, the amount of storage is about 500 times that of a Triton, so...

I find the boat to be a modern classic, lookswise, and pretty timeless, since the design is now 25 years old but still looks at once thoroughly modern and attractively classic--without the "high-topsides and fat stern" disease of today's designs. The 40 has a sweet sheerline and nice overhangs fore and aft, presenting a balanced appearance that obviously does not tire quickly.

The boats are balsa-cored in the hull and deck, and I would expect the usual deck core problems unless repair has already been made. Beware of the balsa-cored hull, especially around the through hulls, which I believe were installed the "cheap" way at the factory with no solid material around the fittings to seal off the core. They came with rod rigging which is next to impossible to determine the true condition of from a visual standppoint.

The C&C 40 is generally a relative bargain on the used market and can typically be had for the price range you mention. But I would expect that most of them would need general upgrades and improvements. The scale of cost and complexity to refit one of these is exponentially higher, of course, than a 28-footer.

I think a 40 would make a great club racer in the bay, and is capable of offshore work as well once her condition is ensured and necessary repairs/improvements made. Kapalua sailed in the 1982 Berumda race on the tails of a hurricane (the start was delayed 2 days to let the storm pass).

The older C&C 39 and 38 are also attractive boats that represent good values as well. The original interiors tended to be a bit basic and fiberglass-y, I think, but the sky's the limit. We used to race against a modified 39 (with a more modern, deeper keel foil and rudder, and a bendy triple-spreader rig). My next-door mooring neighbor is an old 39. Nice boat.

The Tartan 37 is favored as a good cruiser, and performs well, but I think any of the C&Cs are probably better on the race course, with more powerful rigs and underbodies. I also find the T-37 to be just a bit stubby-and truncated-looking, though not generally unattractive. I'd rather have a C&C 40, though.

I love the Triton, obviously, but if I had an inclination towards racing I don't think it would be my choice of boat. I don't blame you for wanting something a little more race-oriented, since that seems to be the arena you enjoy the most. I raced for 20+ years on a variety of boats, and it was great fun for a while. I got burned out, though, and, while the experience was invaluable, I'm happy now to while away my days as a more relaxed cruiser. (But I always trim my sails properly!)

Sounds like an exciting new adventure, though. Keep us (me) informed of your progress!

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Tim,


The C&C 40 is at the top of my list also. It doesn't have the timeless beauty of some of the boats that Dave mentioned in the last post, especially the Invicta Yawl, but it does a lot of things very well.

I'm currently looking at one that has been completely restored by someone else this time around. ( and hopefully pick it up cheap over the winter ) Although, the wet core issues do offer some attractive opportunities...

For example, there's one for sale out in Ohio that was $89,000. It sold but the survey turned up a small amount of wet core around the bow lights and the purchaser ( following the advice of seemingly every book or magazine ever published on boat buying ) cancled the sale. It's now down to $54,000 and still hasn't sold. There are two listings for it on Yachtworld currently if you want to see it. It has a green Imron hull and is called "Envy". Like I said, I'm not looking for a project boat this time around. But if the boat is otherwise perfect, I'm not afraid of a small recore and paint job.

The other part of the equation is the sale of "Ca Ira". The boat is essentially perfect and I won't be able to sell it for anywhere near the $$$ I have into it.

One other question, any idea how much it costs to ship a 40' boat overland? Overland shipping extends the range I can look at boats in.


Talk to you soon,

George
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"

[Tim]

Shipping costs vary widely, so I really have no idea. There are a number of resources on the Internet for overland shipping, and a centerboard C&C 40 is not too tall to ship with the keel attached. I think a deep keel version might require removing the keel to keep it under 13' tall.

"Envy" looks pretty decent. It's actually listed on there twice, with two different (by $100) prices. Have you seen both listings?

Moisture around the bow lights killed a sale? Good grief. Big whup. Oh well--maybe it will work out well for you as a result! 54K seems like a great deal if the boat is in generally good condition. It's a lot of boat for that kind of money, though it takes a lot to take care of and upgrade such a boat as well.

I remember the C&C 40 fondly. If I can help with any other questions, let me know.

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Thanks for the note Tim,


Actually, the boat is listed three times, once at 79.5K, once at 55K, and once at 54.9K. I think the progression went 89K.....drop to 79.5K...sold at something less than 79.5K.....survey problem with wet core......back on market at 55K. Strange as it seems, the boat currently appears to be represented by two different yacht brokers at the same time.

There seem to be lots of C&C 40's out there so I will probably wait until November or so to make a purchase. (unless a really really good deal comes along) I can buy the boat without selling #236 "Ca Ira" but it is something I would rather not do.

I still have to deal with the problem of selling #236 "Ca Ira" at a good price. I don't know how I'm going to pull that off. Any ideas?


George Jones
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"

[Tim]

I still have to deal with the problem of selling #236 "Ca Ira" at a good price. I don't know how I'm going to pull that off. Any ideas?

Find a sucker? ha ha...Just kidding!!!

Seriously, I suppose it depends on what your bottom line is. You know as well as I do that Tritons have a pretty firm upper ceiling, value-wise. Your boat has the advantages of a good diesel engine, new mast and rigging, and new sails. She looks clean and well-kept, so you should be able to command a pretty high value, as far as Tritons go.

Still, most buyers will only be willing to go so high for a Triton, regardless of condition, unless the boat is a shining exception. Any and all improvements one makes to a Triton must be done purely for one's own pleasure and desire, with no expectation of any financial return. Keeping in mind that all sailboats require a mast and sails, these items don't really add that much to the overall value of the boat, though from a "curb appeal" standpoint they will at least get lookers "in the door", so to speak. Obviously, some buyers will be more willing to pay a premium because of these items than others; you just have to find that special buyer. There are definitely people looking to buy a Triton that requires no work and is in good condition--but even so, your ultimate value is most likely to be quite limited.

I don't know what you feel you should get out of the boat, or if you care to go into financials on this forum. Feel free to post these thoughts here if you want to solicit commentary and opinions from all--or, if you prefer, email me privately (tlackey@triton381.com) and let me know your thoughts on what you'd like to see back for your boat, and/or what you see as your bottom line--and get some frank opinions back in return.

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Tim,


I appreciate all the information and all the help. I especially appreciate the frank answers.


Here's the rundown of recent upgrades :


Westerbeke / Universal M3-20 Diesel Engine
New Hurth Transmission, New fuel tank and system
as well as new Westerbeke Admiral control panel: $10,500.

New Mast, Boom, and all new standing rigging : $ 9,000.

Brand new Full batten main sail with three reefs
made from 8.5 oz. Bainbridge HSX series cloth : $ 2,400.

Brand new 150% Genoa and brand new Blade jib : $ 2,500.

New suite of storm canvas ( main and jib ) : $ 1,800.

New Raymarine ST-4000+ Autotiller with seperate
control head and fluxgate compass : $ 1,200.

New electrical distribution system and wiring : $ 1,000.

New Standard Horizions depth sounder system : $ 450.

Brand new Harken 3:1 purchase traveler system : $ 450.

Brand new running lights, steaming light,
spreader lights, and new series 40 masthead
Tri-Color light : $ 450.

All new running rigging : $ 650.

New Captain's Navy canvas work. This includes
the sailcover, hatch cover, tiller cover,
and winch covers. : $ 450.

New removable Force 10 single burner fully
gimballed propane stove : $ 150.


Total of the big upgrades : $31,000.


Other big stuff :

Re-cored deck, all wood stripped and new Epiphanes
varnish layed up, all new paint both interior and exterior.

New cutless bearing system in 2002.

Bottom stripped, sanded, barrier coated, and painted with Pettit Trinidad epoxy bottom paint in 2001. Bottom lightly sanded and new bottom paint applied in 2003.

3 Spinnakers, 2 170% Genoa's, working jib and extra main sail.


That's a total of $31,000. before the original cost of the boat and just under a thousand hours of work ( plus materials ) to do the decks, hull, keel, wood work, and a total interior / exterior paint job.

On the plus side, the boat is ready for world cruising right now. A new owner will have to do nothing. The boat shows extremely well also.

I would think that a boat like that would be worth around $30,000. on the open market.

As painfull as it is to say, my guess is that it will sell for around $16,000.

What do you think?


George
Triton #236

[Tim]

George,

Let me start by saying that your feeling about a possible selling price in the $16,000 range seems very realistic. You might be able to get more than that if you find the perfect buyer who knows what he's looking at, but a high asking price is going to turn off many would-be buyers right away. It may not be logical, but when these lookers can peruse the listings and find other Tritons for $4,000, most people will not be interested in the one listed at $20,000--even though the upgrades are probably worth that much. Given the do-it-yourself nature of so many boat shoppers in this price range, "someone else's" improvements, coupled with a higher price tag, may turn off certain buyers.

I will continue by saying that I fully understand the pain of the knowledge that the time, money, and effort you have put in will go mostly unheralded and wasted when it comes time to sell. I am of course in the same position, and have no delusions about the fact that I overimproved my boat from a purely financial standpoint; then again, I knew that going in, and never intended to even attempt to worry about not losing my shirt. Like you, I did what I did because it made the boat what I wanted her to be. Again, boats like yours and mine require knowledgable, informed buyers who understand the value in what improvements have been made. But there are few people looking for world cruisers in the 28' size range. Everyone says they want to do it, but most people don't. And these days, the overwhelming feeling amongst the masses is that you "need" a bigger boat. The small and simple crowd has shrunk dramatically.

Some more frank thoughts:

Diesel engine: a nice upgrade that does increase the perceived value of the boat, but by nowhere close to the purchase/installation price. All other things being equal, a nice, relatively new and well-maintained diesel in this boat is probably worth a $2000 premium over an identical boat with a rebuilt or otherwise well-maintained A4. The diesel will also bring buyers to your doorstep, since the installation of a diesel is perceived to be a high-end upgrade.

Mast/Rigging: Well, this is like putting new tires on your car. Yeah, it's nice and all, but it adds little realistic value, unfortunately. You need a mast and rigging in order to sail a sailboat, so the fact that it's new does little to the value. What it does do is attract lookers, possibly, and add to the perception of the boat being a bargain for the price when compared with other Tritons. Note that the lack of a mast would be considered to be a significant detriment to the value, but a new one is, in my opinion, virtually irrelevant to the value. If the rest of the boat is on par with the new mast, then it ensures that the overall value of the boat will be as high as possible--but there's not a particular increase in value as a result. Hard to swallow, but that's how I see it.

Sails: New sails are better than old sails, of course, but the boat needs sails. Again, the lack of sails, if that were the case, would be value-detrimental, but new sails adds nowhere near the replacement cost. Nor does a large number of spare and extra sails. For most people, these just clutter up the garage. All other things being equal, the new sails and rigging and such might add $1000+ over an identical boat with 20 year-old sails. New running rigging means nothing to most buyers; most people will sail for years with fraying, mildewed line and think nothing of it. (People are weird...)

Electronics: Little intrinsic value, other than to help ensure that the boat maintains a high-end value (assuming the rest of the boat is up to snuff as well). Piles of old electronics (speaking in general terms now) are actually a detriment sometimes, as new buyers want to install their own stuff. For some buyers, electronics make the sale--no matter how antiquated they might be. Others could care less. Whether or not the electronics appeal to a certain buyer is case-dependent, and works more to support your asking price, rather than actually increasing it. I saw a junky, ugly old boat sell last year mainly because it was loaded to the hilt with 2000 varieties of radio, Omega, Loran, all this old junk...but you could see the gleam in the buyers' eyes. To each their own. Never mind the structural crazing, the wet deck core, the original finishes...

The point is, you never know what will appeal to, or be negative to, a buyer. Good electronics are never a detriment--but they only add so much, too. Most boats now have depth and speed; many have autopilots as well, though probably not as nice as yours. Still, since this has become a pretty "normal" level of equipment, there is little change in value as a result.

New sailcover and other canvas covers (no dodger, right?): Well, this stuff is priceless if it makes the boat look sweet at the dock. A clean, neat, and well-kept boat with new canvas will attract more attention on the market, and will add perceived value. But there's no true dollar-value addition from this stuff. If, for example, you're asking 18K for the boat, the new canvas, new rigging, electronics, etc. help you to support that level of asking price (well above market, that is). But they don't necessarily increase what you can ask for the boat. As part of the whole clean, rebuilt, and new package that is your boat, these things all help. Sadly, the don't add up to anywhere near what your investment is.

Your interior is stock, but clean and with new varnish, paint and upholstery. Your systems are all replaced. You have a diesel engine, new mast, and good sails. And there should be no need for structural repairs, since you took care of that. Assuming all of this holds true, your boat should easily command the high end of the scale, and perhaps break slightly new pricing ground--after all, there are very few Tritons in this sort of gone-over condition, and most require large amounts of work. This disparity has the effect of working against you, as I mentioned above--but it could also work in your favor if (and only if) you find the perfect buyer who realizes that, for, say, 18-20K, he can buy a boat that has twice as much invested in it. But this is a tough sell, considering most Triton buyers are in the market because the boats tend to be inexpensive.

A look at reported selling prices of Tritons nationwide over the past 5 or so years shows the highest selling (not asking) price to be $15,500 (Asking price was 18K). Most are substantially less, of course. There is some precedent, and logical support, for an asking price in the 18K range. Of course, that doesn't mean anyone will be interested at that price. Only time will tell what the market will bear. I'd like to think that the more boats get fixed up, the higher their values might go--to a point. Frankly, I think the Triton will probably plateau out at 20K or so, at best--if indeed even that ever becomes attainable. But for now, that sort of pricing is so far above the "normal" market that it's quite unrealistic for the mainstream.

Hope this helps. I'm not known as a high-appraiser, BTW, and I've been wrong before--and will be again, for sure. No one wants to see Tritons' value increase more than I do...but we'll just have to see!

Good luck. Let me know what you think.

[Figment]

I'll add another perspective... that of a recent veteran of the less-than-$20k boat market. It was only 8 months ago that I bought my boat (god, can that be true?!!!), only 4 months ago that I sold my other boat, and for the past two months I've been helping a friend boat-hunt.

Here's the odd yet harsh reality of the moment: Money is cheap right now. A guy with $18k to spend on a boat can go out and buy a $15k boat, or that guy can put that same $15k down on a $80k boat, and finance the balance at a really attractive rate. (The other $3k goes to the government or West Marine, right?)

My point is that the guys who're opting for the $15k boat are NOT the guys looking for the "everything's brand new" boat. They're the guys looking for (some level of) a project... something they can upgrade, personalize, etc.

I don't enjoy saying this, but..... These guys are not looking for your boat, George. If you have the means, I suggest you hang onto it for at least a year to see what happens in the boat market.

Hope is not lost, however. You do have a niche market to appeal to: Racers. More specifically, Racers who suddenly find themselves with a young family that wants to go cruising once in a while.

Your boat is just what such a person is looking for. Your boat race-ready, and you've got the silver to prove it. Your boat is eye-candy enough to appeal to the wife&kids. Your boat potentially could go the next several years without requiring any significant maintenance investment. Don't underestimate the importance of this last. The abovementioned buyer is probably just past the point where the mortgage payment is a struggle, but money's still tight (if not they would've financed a new boat) so they'll be attracted to the no-clouds-on-the-horizon nature of the deal.

At least, that's the view from up here in the cheap seats. Post flyers at local J22 regattas. :)

Edit: Oh, and Tim's 100% correct about the extra sails and stuff not adding anything near their cash value to the sale price of the boat. You'll do far better if you ebay everything that's not actually screwed to the boat beforehand.

[Figment]

I played hooky for the afternoon and did some solo sailing. I crossed tacks for a while with a Tartan 37.

That was one beautiful boat. Do they all have those tall (+/- 6") teak toerails? I can see why you'd say it's "stubby and truncated looking", Tim, but beating through 2' chop in 12kts she looked great.

(just in case you weren't totally boatstruck by the C&C40)

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Guys,

Long reply and ramble to follow...


Figment - Nice point about Ebaying off the extras!!! They add all of $0 to the final sale price of the boat.

Also...

One of the reasons I mentioned the Tartan 37 in my original post is the fast comfortable ride you can get in one. I made a new mainsail for Tartan 37 hull #193 last fall and sailed with the owner in a couple of races this year. Nice fast boat and the centerboard design works well in the Chesapeake and points south. Another advantage is the lack of a balsa cored hull below the waterline.

The C&C 40 is in a different performance class however. Especially on the Chesapeake in a dying breeze. It will do 5 knots to windward in slightly less than 5 knots of breeze all day long. In 14 knots, it just roars along the race course. I raced against one of them at the Deltaville Leukemia Cup a few weeks ago. I was handling main sail trim on a C&C 34 that had won the start and we just got rolled by a C&C 40 about 2 minutes later. The sight of that monster flying past is what first got me interested in them.

In the end it's the performance difference between a PHRF 138 boat and a PHRF 93 boat.

Figment - The point you made about racing is a difficult one. While it's true that in any kind of a breeze the boat kicks butt with its new sails and faired bottom. It's a very frustrating boat in the Chesapeake. We just never see a constant breeze. The instant the wind drops below 8 or 9 knots I'm toast. The most painful sailing experience I've ever had was watching my 7 minute lead evaporate during the Admirals Cup regatta as the wind died on the last lap and took 25 minutes to fill in from a new direction. I mean I had the damn thing won and ended up taking second to an ultralight P30. Not to mention watching us go from first place to last place almost every Wednesday night as the breeze drops off to nothing.

Tim - Your are spot on in everything you said about diesels, masts, rigging etc. Maybe there will be some kind of synergy with a boat that has everything pretty much perfect. It is nice to be able to go out and not ever have to worry about anything breaking down on you. Maybe that niceness will translate in to more $$$. Maybe not. We'll see.

Tim & Figment - I hear you about the unpleasant reality facing me in the used boat market, at least on the selling side. Although, I'm in a good position on the high dollar purchase side. I've made one decision already today. I don't think I'm going to sell "Ca Ira" until after I get the new boat. I don't really need the $$$ out of it to make the purchase and this way I can wait until the spring for a better market if I have too.

Also, this allows me some time to go cruising with my wife Denise in "Ca Ira" over the next couple of months. As bizzare as this might sound, it's Denise that wants the race boat. She lives for racing and has me out at every regatta or club race anywhere near Gloucester Point, VA. Also, she helms the boat once the start is over and pretty much runs the race. ( if you look at the picture from the race on the NTA website, you'll notice that she's steering ) She even had the dean at William and Mary block out Wednesday afternoons from her teaching schedule just so she would always be free to race.

While I would like a new boat too, I'm having trouble making such a bad financial decision. 60K is a lot of $$$ to spend on an asset that costs a lot to maintain and won't be worth any more 15 years from now than it is today. I would be much happier buying another rental house on a 15 year note that would return $250K. ( in the real world I handle brokerage of investment property and tax deferred exchanges for RE/MAX ) I mean hell, I already have a great boat I can cruise and race in. Things are very strange around the house with me arguing for financial responsibility with with a woman with a CPA, MBA, MSF, and a PHD in accounting.

I can see her argument too though. We sail a lot. I mean a LOT, and she feels that if we are going to spend that much time on a boat it might as well be a big fast boat.

I'll keep you posted as the saga continues. Thanks for listening.


George
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"

[Tim]

I don't profess to know what your local racing fleet is like, George, but I doubt people looking at your Triton will be buying her specifically as a race boat--unless they intend to do class racing further up the bay with the rest of the Tritons. (I know you never said they would--I'm just expounding on Figment's comments.) Perhaps a buyer will be interested in doing some light-duty racing, but most people looking at Tritons are interested in an attractive, sound, and inexpensive way to get on the water for daysailing and, possibly, weekending and somewhat longer cruising. A few select buyers are looking for that "bulletproof" quasi-offshore capability that we all love to tout about our boats, but that few ever actually get the chance to test. This is the sort of buyer who, if they weren't dirt poor, would probably know enough to see the true value in your boat.

That said, there is a solid market for used Tritons, and a wide variety of sailing types are interested in the boat. Your best bet in order to sell your clean and fresh boat for 16K is to find the buyers who are new to sailing in "big" boats, people who have decided that they like the classic style, and who have read up on the reputation of the Triton as a solid performer. Many of these people will be stretching somewhat to purchase the boat, but are often frightened away by the myriad problems associated with most old Tritons. These people would be more inclined to stretch a little further in order to get a boat they will be able to use immediately, rather than face a large, scary, and potentially expensive repair right off the bat. Add in the general "fear" of gasoline engines that many people have, and you're in a great position. I have met and talked with many people whom I could see being interested in a Triton like yours. These are people who were looking at $10,000 boats that needed $20,000 worth of work and upgrades. The value of a boat like yours would probably not be lost on this sort of person, at least not if they had good guidance from a broker (unlikely) or a good advocate in the form of a good friend or trusted surveyor (not that surveyors are any good either).

There was a particular Triton here in Maine (which seems to have finally sold after 3 years) that was originally listed at $16,000. I know many people looked at the boat, but were turned off. Why? Well, it wasn't purely a price thing--rather, it was a price/condition issue. The boat had some serious deck problems, and was cosmetically imperfect--though in generally OK condition. Time and again, the stubborn owner (actually, that word isn't really strong enough--he brought "stubborn" to new levels of obstinance) would refuse to negotiate fairly on the price. The asking price crept slowly downward--slooooooowly. No one could seem to reconcile the structural and other problems with the price.

You don't have that problem, because your boat seems to be in the sort of condition one would expect in a $16,000 Triton. Sure, some "tire kickers" will look at the boat in the hopes that they can offer you 8K and walk away with a screaming deal. That much is inevitable. Others, though, will see impressive value in a well-maintainted and improved 28' classic cruiser with an unblemished reputation, and will be happy to pay this much. It just may take time. And setting the asking price much above this "critical mass" point might keep potential buyers away. Better to set it a bit lower, but remain pretty firm during negotiations unless something unforeseen comes to light.

Figment's comments are also spot on here, though, and highlight exactly why it's so tough to get any sort of money for a Triton. The DIYers will not be interested because there is little left to do--plus the price is too high--and true bargain boat shoppers will be looking for a $5000 boat (though most of these people are also looking for a boat in the sort of condition that yours is, but always seem to think they'll get it in a $5000 boat. A pipe dream, of course--but also the reality of many boat buyers.).

Everyone wants a perfect boat for a tiny amount of money when they buy. The same people want top dollar for their neglected POS when they sell. It's one of the weirder parts of the boating public.

As you know, there is absolutely no investment quality in a boat. Period. Oh sure, occasionally you get lucky, or certain coveted collector's items become more and more valuable over time, but in general I'd be hard pressed to think of a worse investment from a purely financial standpoint. (Except maybe Enron or Global Crossing...) But then again, that's not why we enjoy boating, is it? The good news is that with just about any twenty year-old boat, the depths of value have already been reached, and, assuming ongoing maintenance and repairs as needed, the value will not decrease much more, if at all, over the subsequent years. In many cases, the value may have dropped so low already that you may be able to increase the value if you put enough into the boat. But this is kind of like the old saying: "The best way to make a small fortune is to start with a large one". If you put $30,000 in materials and untold hours of labor into a $50,000 C&C 40, you could (gasp!) end up with a boat worth $60,000. Still, as long as the improvements are to suit yourself amd make you happy, this is worthwhile. At least it ameliorates the pain a little bit!

And the "money is cheap" thing is probably the biggest stumbling block to a quick and lucrative sale of your boat at a high price. Again, Figment is right on here. (Caution: mini-rant here) The perception in the public is that they don't seem to mind being mortgaged to the hilt, so if they have the 15K for a boat, they'll buy the bigger, more expensive boat and finance the balance. That way, they can ensure that they have to go to work every single day in some lousy office and slave away in order to cover that mortgage--and the inflated boatyard bills for all the work that they have no time, skill, or inclination to do--while outside their sealed, air-conditioned window the bright blue waters of the bay beckon, while their boat rots at the slip/mooring. Stupid. But true. These are the "keeping up with the Jones" buyers. People who buy big shiny boats not only because they can, but because they want to show that they can. Barf.

Meanwhile, every time I go sailing on a weekday (frequently, thank you), the only boats I ever see on the water are the other small, "insignficant" boats like mine. Who's having more fun? Hmm. I think I know!

I'm not against big boats--I love all boats. (Well, maybe not all...hehe) I'm only against the current trend for bigness for bigness's sake. People throwing money around to show off. When a big boat is bought for the right reason, I think it's great. There's an undeniable thrill and power found in sailing a large boat, and it's great fun. And if a certain boat is what's hot in the local fleet, and can be afforded and used properly--and substantially--then I think it's great. Personally, I'm just glad I don't have to face what it will cost to maintain a big boat! It's bad enough as it is. I can just see myself with a 40-footer...yikes! First of all, I'd need a bigger barn already...and the ridiculous folly that I'm building is still mostly just a pile of lumber and not even off the ground yet.

George--I hope all my comments above, especially the mini-rant, rang properly with you. I was trying to express a general disgust with the overall public in the vein of why it would be difficult for you to get what you probably should for your boat. None of the comments are directed at you or your plans! I'm all for it.

[Tim]

I played hooky for the afternoon and did some solo sailing. I crossed tacks for a while with a Tartan 37.

I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but yesterday here was just about sheer perfection on the water. Bright, warm, sunny, few boats on the water, and a gentle--but not too gentle--breeze. (Well, a little too gentle in some places, but generally pretty nice.) Congrats on being out there.

Oh, and the T-37 isn't a bad looking boat at all--I like them, though there are other boats of similar size that I like better purely from a looks perspective. The T-37 just looks a little like it came out of the mold as a 40-footer, and someone said, "Wait--I said 37, not 40. Chop that stern off, willya?" But the do sail nicely, and make great cruisers.

[George ( Triton #236 )]

Hi Tim,

George--I hope all my comments above, especially the mini-rant, rang properly with you. I was trying to express a general disgust with the overall public in the vein of why it would be difficult for you to get what you probably should for your boat. None of the comments are directed at you or your plans! I'm all for it.

No problem Tim. The truth is that I'm not that worried about it. If it sells for 18K... great. If it sells for 14K... thats "OK" too. It's just the way things are.

In any case, it's probably an event that is couple of months away. I think that October, November, or December is probably the best time to negotiate a purchase. I can then wait three or four months to put the Triton up for sale and take advantage of the spring market. We will see.

I do appreciate all the great ideas on ways to handle the boat sale and on pricing. It helps a lot to talk it out on a forum like this. I feel I now have a good game plan.


Thanks again,

George
Triton #236 "Ca Ira"