vang,boom,bang. (badda bing) Genny Reefing...

[Kaynee30]

Ok, ok...ordered the Garhauer RV-20 today.
Call me chicken, but along with a feeling of general uncertainty about how best to procede , the expense (yikes!) of all the extra fittings and line that I'd need to complete the cockpit furling gives me reason to hold off on my cockpit reefing plans.. So I'm contenting me with mast-based reefing for the near future. I'm still going with the lazyjacks, though.
And now, the question:
What do you fellers think of the slab-reefing genny as illustrated in Bingham's "Sketchbook"? The setup would have specific advantages or me: My 100% jib requires additional inside, foreward tracks, and I still have to hank it on when I want it. If I add a full downhaul, along with a slab reef, to the very nice genny I have, and I could fly it full, reef it to about the area of a 100% and use the existing jib tracks, or completely douse it from the mast ..I think I can rig this for a couple boat bucks.
The system looks nice on paper.........
Jeff (he bravely, bravely ran away....)

[Tim]

All the reefable genoas I've seen require tying in the reef along the foot, much as you would with the mainsail. I'm not familiar with Bingham's setup that you mentioned, so perhaps you could elaborate a bit? Has he proposed a system that is set up somehow differently, and more user-friendly? If he has some idea that eliminates the issues I'm about to present, then I'm most interested to hear it. I don't own the book, so can't check it out myself. Details?

I don't see how genny reefing could ever be as streamlined or convenient as slab reefing on a main, since you need to change the position of the clew, where your sheets attach, as you lower the tack accordingly. This would seem to mandate a trip forward to change the sheets over, at the very least. Downhaul setups are all well and good for dousing a hanked jib, but don't really add to any sort of reefing convenience.

The Pardeys detailed a unique (as are so many of their) idea in one of their books, in which they built a genoa with a lower section that zipped onto the upper portion. The lower section was a lighter weight cloth, and to reef, they simply unzipped the lower section and reconnected the tack and clew. Interesting, and by all accounts successful, idea, but it still doesn't address the convenience and "not going forward" factor.

Reefable genoas are perfectly fine in many instances, and serve a good purpose. But, in my opinion, the average user simply cannot beat a roller furling system. (You knew it was coming.) While part of me says, "what have you got to lose by trying the system you mention", $200 is too steep a price for an unknown system, considering that amount is putting you well on your way to the roller furling that you really want. You could buy a CDI FF4 system for $469 (Pyacht), or possibly lower, plus the minor cost of sail conversion.

For the budget-conscious, it's hard to beat CDI. They work! For coastal daysailing and cruising (and be realistic), these are more than OK. Simple and basic--yes. Reefable--yes. Carefree--yes. Impressive guarantee--yes. Do I work for CDI--no! I had a small unit on my previous boat and it worked flawlessly. Hey, CDI was even good enough for Bill Bell. For your situation, Jeff, I think this is the way to go, personally.

I'm still interested in hearing more about the Bingham slab reefing genoa.

[Kaynee30]

The setup is as you say, but the reefed clew and sheets are left tied-on.threaded through the foreward leads...ready to use when needed. The belly doesn't necessarily have to be gathered immediately, but my deck anchor..if I left it there, would be a problem.
CDI is a possibility, but the crappy performance of a partially-furled genny gives me pause: dousing a hank-on is no big....already have a full downhaul rigged . It's the stuff between full and furled that interests me with the jiffy genny...
Thanks for the advice...to express my gratitude, I'm sending you several fuzzy kittens.
Jeff

[Tim]

CDI is a possibility, but the crappy performance of a partially-furled genny gives me pause: dousing a hank-on is no big....already have a full downhaul rigged . It's the stuff between full and furled that interests me with the jiffy genny...

Maybe it's not the furling giving you pause (paws?); maybe it's because having all those cats in the house is (oh boy) catching?

Ouch. Long day behind a grinder whilst listening to heavy machinery.

FWIW, the performance of a partially reefed roller furling is nowhere near as bad as all the stuck-in-the-stone age types who always whine about this particular point would have you believe. It gets you where you're going--and way more comfortably and safely because, with the furler, you'll actually reef. Otherwise you'll postpone, make excuses, say "I'm almost home", etc.

While we're at it, beware that traditionally reefed genoas are known for baggy shape as well. And the loose fabric really does need to be bundled and tied on a reefed genny, partially for the sail shape and partially to prevent that loose cloth from blowing around, filling with seawater, and all that fun stuff. Unlike slab reefs in a main, which in most conditions that people are actually sailing in can be left loose, it doesn't work that way with a genoa up on the bow, in way of all those seas that are surely building at the same time as you require a reef.

But that is all I shall say on the subject. Just be sure you're fighting the notion of a furler for the right reasons--reasons that you believe in. For your own (and significant other's) sake.

[Dave, 397]

My buddy has a reefing genoa (well, more like a working jib) that works very well. Quick and easy to employ, goes from about 115% to 90% in about 2 minutes. Similar to the Bingham one. Anything but baggy, trims very well and draws great, still excellent pointing when reefed. Reef ties in with 3 gaskets. Whether a sail like this works or not really depends on the cut, for sure, and like anything else it can be hard finding someone who really understands what it is that you want--i.e. this is not a "character" boat, and the sail needs to be fast. Jim Grant at Sailrite did this one, and it's a joy.
Best,
Dave

[dasein668]

Jeff, A couple of thoughts...

Since we're talking here about a reefing Genny (roller or otherwise), not a midsized working jib here, I'll be the first to admit that you'll need to reef your headsail more often than I do. Generally speaking a true genny is going to be great in light air, but will really start to get overpowered at 15 plus knots true, so your going to want to reef earlier than you would with the 110-ish sails that Tim and I both use. For us we don't need to reef the jib until probably in the neighborhood of 25 knots true. I've only sailed with a (roller)-reefed jib once and it was with a double reefed main in 25 knots steady. Was it less than perfectly efficient? Yup. Was the boat still going hull speed? Yup. 7 plus knots over ground, and the boat was only heeled to about 15 to 20 degrees. In your case, if you are really going to be using the genny most of the time, then things might be a little different. But I still believe that you are going to miss the small amount of efficiency a lot less than you think you are.

Secondly, don't underestimate the difficulty of reefing a genny in 15 plus knots of wind. Especially single-handed, or with minimally experienced crew. Remember what a pain it was to switch headsails on the way to Scitutate? And that was with two of us handling sails and a third person at the tiller. And we were going the other way: smaller sail to a genny. Now, with reefing, you aren't going to have to yank the sail all the way down, but at the same time you will have other issues to deal with. And you'll still need to drop the sail somewhat, and you may need to change sheet leads, you'll have to tie up the reefed part of the sail, all while the sail flogs violently about the foredeck. This isn't to say it can't be done, but its going to be a) somewhat dangerous, especially singlehanded, and b) seriously hard work which when you are out singlehanding is going to make you think twice (or more!) before you attempt it.

My personal feeling is to seriously consider safety first, and perfectly optimum sail shape second (or even third or fourth) when we are talking about reefing. Having a perfect reefed sail shape doesn't do you much good if you're unconcious from getting hit by something flailing around the foredeck, or swimming behind the boat after getting tossed overboard.

And again, you'll be better off if you actually do reef, and I guaruntee you'll be much more likely to do so from the safety of the cockpit with a roller-furler.

If you really think that you'll be happier with the hanks and manual reefing, then by all means go ahead, but think about the big picture very carefully before you make that decision-not just whether or not you'll have a perfect sail shape.

those is my couple o' thoughts... take 'em or leave 'em! ;-P

[Shark]

I agree with Nathan 110% ... Safety first then worry about sail shape.

I single hand my Shark 24 a great deal but it is set up for racing. Therefore the only white sails I use are a full main, no reefing, and a #1. Setting and taking down the #1 when single handing is risky at best and downright dangerous in a blow, small foredeck and no lifelines. Being older and wiser now, it only took one outing on this boat, my second Shark, to convince me of the need for roller furling.

I installed it and am glad I did everytime I sail the boat.

Lyman

[Guest]

Thanks! That settles it: I'm getting a Bayliner. (I kid)
I'll miss that 150% wrapped around the stancheons, though: the boat wears it like Cathrine Zita-Jones wears a tight Dior dress.
Much obliged for the advice.

[kaynee30]

that was me in the previous ppost.

[Shark]

Don't give up on the 150 Genny unless you have to.

My Genny or #1 is a 180% sail. The sail is hanked on to the forestay. The system does not use a headfoil. The clew comes back practically to the cockpit. I love to steer from the low side and see the curve of the Genny as I work to windward.

The roller furling works just fine with this sail.

Lyman

[kaynee30]

So you have roller-furling on the forestay and a genny that hanks-on over it? That's a new one to me. Details???
Jeff

[Shark]

Jeff,

For more information about the roller furling I am using, please go to our class website www.shark24.org . In the frame on the left hand side you will see the ?Directory? section and below it a link ?Masthead.? Click on that link and then look for the icon and link called ?Roller Furling? on the Masthead page. There are diagrams of the system etc. I think the instructions were translated from German so they are a bit awkward. You can also go to the manufacturer?s website www.bartelsgmbh.de . You will have to follow the links there. Start by clicking on the sailboat. I don?t know of any suppliers in your area. Perhaps their website will help.

The system I am using appears to be Bartels? smallest size roller furling gear. The Triton would likely need one of the larger sizes.

User thoughts:

You will have to get a new shorter, heavier (advised in my case), forestay or have your present forestay shortened. This must be done to accommodate the ?swivel? at the top of the forestay and the ?roller hardware? at the bottom. Make sure the luff on your jib is not too long or it won?t fit between the two. I had this problem with my brand new ?class measured? sails (#$%^&*).

You may or may not have to modify your stemhead fitting, as I did, to accommodate the ?roller spool? fitting. The clearances are tight between the bottom of the spool and the clevis pin hole.

You will not be able to use a jib cunningham which is led aft, as the whole sail now rotates. If you need a cunningham, as I do, a length of line fastened to the sail near the tack, threaded through the bottom fitting and led back through a jam cleat on the sail will do. You have to adjust the cunningham by going forward but this should not need to be done too often during any one outing. I just set it for the conditions and forget it. If you have a rope luff, instead of a wire luff, you can just use the halyard to adjust the sail luff tension. Just make sure your luff is not too long as noted above.

I have not sailed with the sail partially deployed. Our class rules prohibit this. I also don?t know if such ?reefing? will work with this setup as the furling line is continuous and there would be no way to keep the sail from unrolling. I think a jam cleat or a ?spinlock? on the furling line should solve this.

I believe Profurl makes a system something like this one too. I saw an advertisement for one recently but I can?t find the product on their website. I?ll let you know if I find out any more.

The big plus with this type of system is that it lets you use any sail you currently own, providing the luff will fit between the upper and lower attachment points. There is no need to buy sails that fit a specific headfoil. Also if you change sails during a sail or cruise, you still have the furling function available to you.

I use a Genny sock to protect the sail from ultraviolet radiation. The sock is a bit of a pain to use but does the job. A cruising jib with a Sunbrella foot and leach would be simpler to use. On the other hand, you could just remove the sail if you weren?t going to use the boat for a while.

I hope this helps ? a bit long winded I know.

Lyman
?Scoot?

[kaynee30]

Thank's, scoot.
My head is spinning trying to figure out all the terminology and decipher to illustration's. I think I'll ask the local Rigging Only shop to decode the option's for me.
Jeff

Tims got his semi-colon in an uproar about misused apostrophe's. No wonder his boat got slammed: alll that bad kharma. Poor Nathan: a pawn in natures retributive justice. Oh well: you reap's what you sow's.

[Shark]

Jeff,

My name is Lyman. My boat's name is Scoot. The confusion is due to juxtaposition no doubt.

The Profurl system I mentioned is called the NEC Furling System for headsails and flying sails. I can't tell from the advertisement how the system works. It makes reference to the use of hanked on sails of various types and the "NEC solution replaces the removable stay and allows for easy handling and quick storing of all types of sails" ... whatever that means. They show a spool similar to mine but the halyard arrangement looks different. Their website is www.profurl.com .

I hope my apostrophes are correctly used. I wouldn't want to lose any marks unnecessarily.

Lyman

P.S. Kaynee looks great ... well done.

[Tim]

The NEC and other similar furling rigs for "flying sails" are designed for sails like drifter/reachers, Code 0s, and similar sails. (Most furler manufactures now make a similar rig--Harken, Schaefer, etc.) Typically, the furler is designed to remain with the sail, though you could switch sails if you wanted. Instead of hoisting the sail in a sock, or out of a bag, the idea is that you conveniently hoist the nicely-rolled sail on a halyard with its own furling rig, and then unroll it at your convenience when ready to use. Even better, when you're done with the sail, just roll it up and lower the halyard--again, at your convenience. The idea is to make taming a large sail safe and simple, so that the sail might actually be used.

This link goes directly to the Profurl EC page.

These are not designed for reefing or partial deployment, and are for ease of storage only. A special luff in the sail helps support the weight and allows rolling, since the luff is only tensioned by halyard. I spoke at length with my sailmaker about one of these rigs last winter, with a large, lightweight reacher/offwind headsail attached. It wasn't in the budget for last winter, but hopefully soon.