What fasteners to use
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- Deck Grunge Scrubber
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What fasteners to use
In a few weeks we plan to install all deck hardware and exterior wood back on Rosie and since a lot of the cleats, teak & mahogany, bollard bitt etc....will be replaced fasteners will have to be ordered.
First, I have always wondered what the rule of thumb is when replacing old weather worn, broken,bent, or striped screws as to what to use.I have seen stainless, bronze, brass, and also some that have rusted......Do i replace with what came out?
And second what about straight head vs. phillips head, they both have their strengths and weaknesses is one superior over the other?...... I know that you must make sure you have the right sized bit for every job as to not strip the heads but I have had trouble with both..
Here are a few areas in question....please add any to the list.
FASTENERS most likely used for
Exterior Woodwork (Brightwork) ..................bunged or not bunged? (is there a difference when exposed or under a bung)
Toe-Rail...................................................... bunged or not bunged, seems like i have seen bronze straight head not bunged
Hardware.................................................... I assume stainless unless hardware is made of Bronze than use bronze.
In my mind It only makes sense to do the job right to make it easier for the next Joe who will restore this boat in the next 40 years.
Thanks
Todd
First, I have always wondered what the rule of thumb is when replacing old weather worn, broken,bent, or striped screws as to what to use.I have seen stainless, bronze, brass, and also some that have rusted......Do i replace with what came out?
And second what about straight head vs. phillips head, they both have their strengths and weaknesses is one superior over the other?...... I know that you must make sure you have the right sized bit for every job as to not strip the heads but I have had trouble with both..
Here are a few areas in question....please add any to the list.
FASTENERS most likely used for
Exterior Woodwork (Brightwork) ..................bunged or not bunged? (is there a difference when exposed or under a bung)
Toe-Rail...................................................... bunged or not bunged, seems like i have seen bronze straight head not bunged
Hardware.................................................... I assume stainless unless hardware is made of Bronze than use bronze.
In my mind It only makes sense to do the job right to make it easier for the next Joe who will restore this boat in the next 40 years.
Thanks
Todd
Re: What fasteners to use
On which metal to use, in my opinion:
I tend to favor silicon bronze, especially if it will be "buried" in a location where it will not see much oxygen (stainless can develop crevice corrosion).
If stainless, 316 will be less prone to rust/corrosion than "regular" stainless (304).
Brass is not appropriate for these uses (maybe for some light-duty type interior fasteners).
I tend to favor silicon bronze, especially if it will be "buried" in a location where it will not see much oxygen (stainless can develop crevice corrosion).
If stainless, 316 will be less prone to rust/corrosion than "regular" stainless (304).
Brass is not appropriate for these uses (maybe for some light-duty type interior fasteners).
- Tim
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Re: What fasteners to use
Your choices are bronze (normally silicone bronze alloy) and stainless, either 316 or 304 (18/8).
I suggest using bronze where the looks matters most (bronze hardware installations, etc.) and 316 stainless elsewhere. Use the "lesser" 304 alloy as need be, though this is more prone to rust weeping (which can also occur with 316).
Head style is up to you.
I suggest using bronze where the looks matters most (bronze hardware installations, etc.) and 316 stainless elsewhere. Use the "lesser" 304 alloy as need be, though this is more prone to rust weeping (which can also occur with 316).
Head style is up to you.
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- Master of the Arcane
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Re: What fasteners to use
The only thing I would add to the above posts concerns what you are fastening to. If you are screwing to fiberglass then bronze is not my choice. It would be for any other situation, but it breaks too easily when screwing into a really hard material. The threads dull going into fiberglass, then the screw binds, then you break it trying to force it in. So if the toe rail is screwed to the deck like mine, I would use stainless self tapping screws. They have a sharp thread and can stand up to cutting into the pilot hole.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
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- Deck Grunge Scrubber
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Re: What fasteners to use
Thanks for the feedback(s).
Regarding the toe rail, it is attached from screwing underneath thru both the hull and deck flange till hitting the toe rail, the rub rail (also mahogany) covers all from the side.
Todd
Regarding the toe rail, it is attached from screwing underneath thru both the hull and deck flange till hitting the toe rail, the rub rail (also mahogany) covers all from the side.
Todd
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Re: What fasteners to use
Well, I am Canadian, so I have to put in the point that Robertson head screws are far superior to slots or Philips. The screw will tend to stay on the driver, which is a great benefit when working in tight spots, and it is less likely to "cam out" (i.e. slip out) when installing or removing. It can be driven one-handed and is self centering.
A second point, regarding bungs, is one that I am less sure of. I believe that a bunged screw hole is less likely to leak, because water can't be transmitted down the screw shaft. This assumes that the bung fits well, isn't cracked, and is properly varnished into place.
A second point, regarding bungs, is one that I am less sure of. I believe that a bunged screw hole is less likely to leak, because water can't be transmitted down the screw shaft. This assumes that the bung fits well, isn't cracked, and is properly varnished into place.
Cape Dory 10 & 27
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Re: What fasteners to use
Simply called square drive screws by many in the US, but regardless of what you call them I agree that it is a superior drive shape. I wish it was more commonly used and readily available. I don't know what you mean by self centering. If I want a screw to stay in the center of something I drill a pilot or clearance hole as the task requires. I haven't found a screw yet that does what I want it to without some technique.Duncan wrote:Well, I am Canadian, so I have to put in the point that Robertson head screws are far superior to slots or Philips. The screw will tend to stay on the driver, which is a great benefit when working in tight spots, and it is less likely to "cam out" (i.e. slip out) when installing or removing. It can be driven one-handed and is self centering.
I can't say that my word alone should reinforce your "less sure of" to something greater, but I am confident this is so.Duncan wrote:A second point, regarding bungs, is one that I am less sure of. I believe that a bunged screw hole is less likely to leak, because water can't be transmitted down the screw shaft. This assumes that the bung fits well, isn't cracked, and is properly varnished into place.
This yeilds a great result but has to be one of the most tedious, uncomfortable, frustrating and curse causing techniques I can think of. More power to you if you can do this.todd gustafson wrote:Regarding the toe rail, it is attached from screwing underneath thru both the hull and deck flange till hitting the toe rail, the rub rail (also mahogany) covers all from the side.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
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Re: What fasteners to use
Of course, the Philips was designed to cam out, which is why it does that. It was designed for a production environment using power drivers. If it didn't cam out, the workers would constantly be driving them too deep or tearing the heads of the screws off.Duncan wrote:Well, I am Canadian, so I have to put in the point that Robertson head screws are far superior to slots or Philips. The screw will tend to stay on the driver, which is a great benefit when working in tight spots, and it is less likely to "cam out"
If the screw head is visible, I far prefer the traditional slotted screw head, and of course, make sure you line up your slots. If it's not visible, I typically use a Phillips for ease of driving with a power tool.
I do like the Robertsons for the fact that they are very positive and do not slip, but one thing that is sometimes a PIA is that the driver sticks so well in the screw head that you sometimes leave the driver bit behind when you pull the tool away! On the positive side, it's possible to stick a screw on the driver bit and drive the screw horizontally or vertically without it falling off the bit. Pretty much can't do that with a Philips or slotted bit.
Bill T.
Richmond, VA
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible." - T E Lawrence
Richmond, VA
"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible." - T E Lawrence
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- Master of the Arcane
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Re: What fasteners to use
Very often this will compromise the fastening. It works fine with maching screws and nuts as you can align the slots then tighten the nut. But with screws it often requires over tightening some screws and risking a partial stripping of the wood or what ever you are fastening into. Or it could mean you back the screw off to align the head and loosen things up. Neither is worth the look in my opinion.ILikeRust wrote:............... and of course, make sure you line up your slots...
I do agree that for a very traditional look, only slotted fits the bill.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
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Re: What fasteners to use
Sorry, I meant the driver automatically centers on the screw, not that the screw automatically centers in the hole.Hirilondë wrote:I don't know what you mean by self centering.Duncan wrote:... Robertson ...
This, I think, is my biggest frustration with other screws, because I have to keep the driver exactly lined up on the screw, and keep it that way while I'm turning it. Not easy when I may be working upside down, in tight quarters, and maybe can't even see the screw.
Your word adds plenty, for me, thanks for the 'reinforcement'!Hirilondë wrote:I can't say that my word alone should reinforce your "less sure of" to something greater, but I am confident this is so.Duncan wrote:... bungs...
Cape Dory 10 & 27
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Re: What fasteners to use
"Hirilondë" wrotetodd gustafson wrote:Regarding the toe rail, it is attached from screwing underneath thru both the hull and deck flange till hitting the toe rail, the rub rail (also mahogany) covers all from the side.
This yeilds a great result but has to be one of the most tedious, uncomfortable, frustrating and curse causing techniques I can think of. More power to you if you can do this.
This is done standing out side of the boat, the toe-rail being about 24'' above my head. I just bend the toe rail till it lines up to the curve of the deck and drive a screw.....when i get to that i will post pictures............:)
Todd
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Re: What fasteners to use
It's perfectly acceptable to use unbunged screws on exterior bright work especially on items you wish to remove at some point without fuss, I prefer oval head slotted bronze which have a more elegant look than stainless, flat head or philips head screws.
Vark
Vark
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Re: What fasteners to use
Aha, your hull/deck joint is an overlap on the outside. I had envisioned something like my boat. I would have to have someone down below doing the fastening and someone on deck bending the toe rail into place. These 2 people would surely be cursing each other during the process. Not having bungs at all is better looking, in my opinion anyway, and even more impervious to water/moisture than even the best seated and sealed bung.todd gustafson wrote: This is done standing out side of the boat, the toe-rail being about 24'' above my head. I just bend the toe rail till it lines up to the curve of the deck and drive a screw.....when i get to that i will post pictures............:)
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gresham’s Law of information: Bad information drives out good. No matter how long ago a correction for a particular error may have appeared in print or online, it never seems to catch up with the ever-widening distribution of the error.