Classic Plastic Insurance

[Arcadia]

I'm curious about what other's have chosen to do about insurance.

I'm finding myself in an untenable position with my current insurance company(Zurich). They requested an out of the water condition and value survey, the third in the last ten years. Having submitted that, they now are requesting an 'aloft rigging inspection' before 1/15/08, mind you, instead of the inspection of the mast off the boat as it has been done on previous occasions without comment( the mast and rigging were included in the current survey submitted). Well naturally the mast in a shed and the boat is out of the water, actually it has been all year as I am in the process of a pretty though refinish/refit; Awlgriped hull, deck and cabin, new varnish, rebedding all fittings, etc.

In addition, as the surveyor came back with a value above our current insured value, I had requested a rate for the new value. Their response was that they would not agree to an increase in the value on the basis of the survey alone, I would need to submit receipts for 'upgrades' to justify the increase in value...?? Perhaps we will not come to an agreement on the value of the boat, but isn't the survey specifically to determine the value and condition??

All this after nearly doubling our premium after Katrina; and we're in the northeast!

I intend to write a letter explaining the situation and ask them for an explanation. Frankly it seems to me they are trying to manufacture a reason to drop the policy, or more likely, get me to tell them to take a hike.

Those of us on this forum are obviously dealing with older boats for the most part, and periodic surveys are not out of line; insurance companies certainly have a right to know what they are being asked to insure and it's relative value. I realize that age is an issue(41 year old boat in this case),however this is becoming ridiculous .

Any suggestions would be welcome. Since I do all my own work, I'm really only looking for coverage in case of a total loss.

What does everyone else here do about insurance?

[Tim]

...they now are requesting an 'aloft rigging inspection' before 1/15/08, mind you, instead of the inspection of the mast off the boat as it has been done on previous occasions without comment

Are you sure that this "aloft rigging inspection" request isn't simply obtuse insurance company boilerplate that means that they just want a rigging inspection to be part of the survey, having made the foolish assumption that the rig will be stepped regardless of location and season? Anyone with half a brain (even insurance companies) ought to know that you can do a far more effective rigging inspection with the mast unstepped and available for inspection at ground level.

...isn't the survey specifically to determine the value and condition??

Yes, depending on the type of survey. A thorough survey report contains all the supporting information required to justify the given value; the surveyor's inspection notes the upgrades on the boat and the surveyor can they determine a fair market value based on those observations. Typically, the insurance company looks upon the surveyor's report as gospel. And we all know that receipts for "upgrades" have nothing to do with how much value they potentially add to the boat, so that just seems pointless to me.

Frankly it seems to me they are trying to manufacture a reason to drop the policy, or more likely, get me to tell them to take a hike.

So do them--and mostly yourself--a favor and give them what they want. You don't need to hassle with this sort of foolishness; there are plenty of insurance companies out there willing to insure your boat.

Since you're already in a position to need a survey even to maintain your current insurance, there's no reason not to shop around. Most companies will require a new survey to initiate coverage, so now is the time to check out the other companies that might be, at least for the time being, interested in writing your coverage.

A lot of insurers have at least an informal 3-year survey policy on boats of a certain age; most aren't real efficient at requesting them, but your situation isn't unheard of. That doesn't mean you should stick with the company you have.

What does everyone else here do about insurance?

Do you use an insurance agent for any of your other insurance needs? If so, talk to the agent about your boat insurance needs. I use an independent agent who represents a number of companies, and he can usually provide several options for any insurance requirement.

My boat policy is currently underwritten by Middle Oak (formerly Middelsex Mutual), and has been since inception. They're OK--a bit pricey, I think, but I haven't had any hassles, though I think I heard rumblings of a need for a survey for next season (first time since 2001).

Insurance companies need to learn that they are businesses that need customers to survive. Bad service? Get out of Dodge and find another company, pronto. Don't reward incompetent and indifferent service.

[Arcadia]

Tim,
Thanks for the response and the info.

The request for a rigging inspection makes me think they didn't read the report; it was included in the survey.

I have an independent agent also, but they seem overly concerned about the age of the boat and the reluctance of insurers to write policies for such. I may need to shop for a new agent as well. I already asked them to find another company, I guess I'll see what they come up with.

Thanks again,

Chris

[Allen]

Chris, When I moved Kaholee to Maine I got insurance through Progressive. It was painless, they did not require a survey and the price was very reasonable. I do believe they have a value limit though so I'm going to have to revisit this before Kaholee leaves Tim's shop. You might give them a try. Take a look at their website for the value limit.

[windrose]

Like Allen says, Progressive $384/year for my 1963 Triton with a valuation of $15000. I had been turned away by Zurich and BoatUS before going to Progressive because of the boats age.

[Rachel]

This may not be current info, as it's a few years old, however I had Progressive insurance on a 40-year-old boat and, as Allen says, it was quick and painless to initiate. There was no survey, and they weren't the least bit bothered about the age of the boat.

I got the insurance specifically to satisfy a marina, so I didn't pay too much attention to what was covered and what wasn't, but one limitation I remember was that if the boat were to sink (say, in the slip), there was either no coverage for the costs of raising the boat, or there was none for cleaning up any fuel spill, etc. It might have been both. I didn't plan on keeping the boat in the water for much longer so I signed up for it anyway. I think it was something like $195 per year.

Just something to check into if you go Progressive; for all I know they may have changed it by now.

[Allen]

Rachel, my policy from them specifically includes removal. I think it was right at $250/yr. I'll double check and update here in a minute of two.

Ok, here's the update:

Included with comprehensive ($20K) and collision, are wreckage removal and marine electronics. Coastal navigation to 75NM. We have a $500 deductible and the cost was $250/yr.

[Jason K]

I hate insurance companies. Really.

Progressive will insure up to $20,000 on boats that are 15 yrs or older. They sometimes will not require a survey if the value matches their database info. They are who I used for my Triton.

[Rachel]

Hi Allen,

Perhaps I was remembering them saying that they would pay to remove the boat, but not for any associated environmental issues (i.e. there was fuel on your boat that is now in the water). Did they mention anything about that when you checked?

By the way, I'm not trying to pick on Progressive - their insurance was just what I needed at the time - I'm just curious.

I've been thinking recently that I wish I'd just started saving all my insurance premium money when I was a youngster and invested it. I could probably be self-insured by now and pay for my own problems with the money - with no hassles of having to "prove" anything, being cancelled, having something of "no value" just because it's old, loopholes, etc.

[Hirilondë]

I have been a long time proponent of self insurance. It isn't for everyone, or every situation. I carry well under the value of my boat for my fault accidents. I am mostly looking for the security of the liability portion of the policy. If I were to damage someone else's boat, or even worse, be the cause of injury to another, I want to know my actions will be covered.

[Arcadia]

Thanks for all your input. I'm not sure what route I'll chose yet, I'm still waiting to hear from my agent, and there isn't an immediate rush.

It seems age and value are the sticking points. I have considered self-insuring. We certainly have more money tied up in the boat than insurance would pay off in case of a total loss, but something is better than nothing, and as Hirilonde says, liability is an issue both for damage and injury as well as environmental clean up or fines. Under insuring is a solution I hadn't really considered since the insurance company hasn't ever raised this issue of justifying the surveyor's valuation before. It might be worth it just to eliminate the aggravation and cost of surveys every three or four years.

I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks,
Chris

[keelbolts]

If I said what I really think about insurance companies, Tim would have to delete my post. Years ago, after I had had Allstate insurance on Favona for about a year and a half, they called to say they needed a survey. I told them that January was not a good time for a haulout, but I would get them a survey in the spring. Nope, it had to be right then or else. So they dropped me. I got a survey for them in the spring and returned to my agent with a glowing report. They would not insure me. Why? Because I had been dropped by my previous insurance company - THEM. I was ready to nuke 'em.

Remember, insurance is a business, not a service. They are there for their stockholders, not for you.

Sounds like Progressive may be the way to go.

[Chris Campbell]

Not sure if Aviva Elite's Skipper's Plan is available in the states, but that's what I've got for my boat here in Nova Scotia, and I can highly recommend them.

I've had two occasions to make claims, and both have been handled in an exemplary fashion.

The first was after hurricane Juan came through, and my Roue R/20, while she held on her mooring just fine, was hit by other boats that dragged on their way up the Northwest Arm. I had not planned to make a claim, not wanting to up my premiums and figuring that I could fix the damage myself - but when I called to pay my next year's premium I was asked if I had had any damage, and when I said yes but that I didn't want to up my premiums, was told that they wouldn't be upped, and they'd send out an adjuster. Within two weeks I had a cheque to make my repairs less painful!

The second time was with my current NE38, and was after another boat hit me in a race while I was on starboard. I called my insurance to let them know what was going on, but to reassure them that the other guy's insurance was taking care of it. They said "if we can help in any way, let us know". His insurance refused to pay (I still don't understand why), and I called Aviva Elite and had the repair work underway in about 2-3 weeks.

I've never had better treatment by an insurance company, and have very definitely had worse!

Oh - my NE38 was built in '65, and while they do require a survey, the only other stipulation is that they won't insure for replacement value, only fair market, which I'm fine with.

Cheers,

Chris

[matt1]

I too have been having insurance problems. After purchasing the boat, I went with insurance through an All State friend of mine. We were insured for about a month when the underwriters rejected the policy because of the age of the boat. Our long time home owner/car insurance company "State Farm" is insisting on a survey, as well as the purchase price of the boat. Since the purchase price was an obvious bargain, why in the world would I want them to know that, since the value is certainly at least $10,000 more than the purchase price. Is it legal for them to request both? Add to the troubles, I am having a hard time finding a surveyor in a city that builds warships. The surveyors that I have contacted don't want to look at anything under 90'.

[Scout]

Chirs, don't know if you have resolved this but we use Hagerty. They seem to specialize in old classics. Just needed a survey. Not cheap though, I think I ppaid around 7-800.

http://www.hagerty.com/Marine/marine_index.aspx

[Arcadia]

Nanette, Thanks for the referral, I haven't decided which route to take with this yet. I'll get a quote from Hagerty.
Aviva sounded good, but from their website it looks as if they only offer life insurance product in the U.S. Truthfully, I haven't had much time to look into it. Spent too much time working on the boat over the summer and now I have to catch up on real work. As the guys in the boatyard say, 'can't let work get in the way of your hobby! Fortunately, I have a little time yet and I have a survey in hand. I'll let you know how things work out.
Chris

[A30_John]

Does anyone know how the age of a boat is calculated for insurance purposes? Is is the year the hull was laid up or built? I ask this because many people on this forum have refitted boats to "bristol" or better than new condition. Others have taken old hulls that are in sound condition and built what are essentially new boats around them (e.g. Glissando, the Daysailor). With all new systems, thru hulls, seacocks, etc. shouldn't/couldn't these boats be regarded as "new"?

[Tim]

Attempts to apply logic to insurance companies rarely works, unfortunately!

[Scout]

I think it is safe to say that an insurance company will insure a boat for what the survey deems is current value - not replacement value - that number is a number few of us here would shell out for a new boat.

Scout is currently under insured. She is insured for the value the survey came up with when she was first bought. All the repairs, and then some were done and they came back for a cursory look to increase the value. Even more improvements have happened since then.

Obviously, a higher premium would insure her for her current value.

[Tim Mertinooke]

I need to get my Fuji 32 insured and decided to get a quote from BoatUS as a starting point. They require a survey of course, which I am ok with and fully understand. If the survey checks out which I'm sure it will, I would be insured for $636/year. My concern is that they will only insure my hull at the purchased price, not the market value as was mentioned in a previous post. The market value of a Fuji 32 in decent condition is listed at $34,500 (BoatUS' number), but in the application I told the truth and listed the purchase price at $10,000. That means if my boat is a loss, I get a check for 10k which will cover my investment, but it won't replace what I have. $636 a year seems steep if I don't end up with a boat like the one I'm insuring should something catatrophic happen to it. I checked Progressive as others recommended, but they don't insure boats in the Commonwealth due to our outrageous insurance laws here. Does anyone know of a company that will insure a hull for its value, not the amount invested. I was designed for a different era I think. One where people took responsibility for themselves and didn't worry about such things as needing insurance.

[Zach]

Tim,

Ask them for an "Agreed Value" policy. Basically whatever you want it to be worth is what the policy pays out, with increased premium. Also for the electrical gear try putting it under homeowners or renters insurance. They pro-rate electronics though, so if in 5 year or so they'll be stingy.

(I need to go find some wood to knock on, as I'm currently flying without.)

[Tim Mertinooke]

Thanks for the advice Zach, I'll see what they say. Someone in another forum recommended International Marine Insurance Services over BoatUS. I plan to give them a call tomorrow. I was planning on getting the boat surveyed even if I didn't have an insurance carrier lined up the first week in June. Here's a question. I understand that most if not all insurance companies require a survey in order to be insured. Can I get my boat surveyed and have the survey in hand before I make arrangements with a specific company, or will they tell me to get another survey. I have heard outrageous stories here and other places about needing a new survey even if the survey in hand is months old. Others experiences?

[MikeD]

The market value of a Fuji 32 in decent condition is listed at $34,500 (BoatUS' number), but in the application I told the truth and listed the purchase price at $10,000.

Look on the bright side - you don't even have to fudge your purchase price to get nice low annual excise taxes! That might make up the difference right there.

Now, if only there were a surveyor on this forum who could answer your "insurance survey" questions... ;)

[Tim Mertinooke]

Very true Mike, if you live in Maine. Massachusetts taxes you on the purchase price or Blue Book value whichever is higher. Ah, the Commonwealth, those that have pay for those that have not.

Speaking of surveyors. Does anyone have a recommendation for one on the North Shore of Massachusetts. I have a few that I found through a search, but I know none of them and we know all surveyors are not created equal.

[Andrew Westgate]

We insured our boat using Progressive. We couldn't haul it out at the time we bought it so a survey was a non-starter. Progressive was the only company we found that didnt require one.

Anyway we got hit by lightening last summer in the marina. Pretty much blew out every light on the boat, melted all the mast cables, and did some extensive damage to some of the wiring and fuse panel.

I did all the replacement and rewiring work myself. Then on my wife's suggestion I called Progessive and told them what happened. They sent a guy out to the marina the next day. He looked things over, asked a few questions, took some pictures and then went back to his car. Moments later he reappeared with a check in hand for TIME amd MATERIALS. Progessive actaully paid for my labour.

It was a great experience and I can't say enough about the company. We feared that our rates might go up but low and behold they stayed the same.

Not sure if this is the norm but was by far the best insurance experience that I ever had. And you though "best insurance experience" was an oxymoron!

Andrew

[Tim]

I don't know why everyone goes with Boat/US. There are many good insurers out there.

Progressive seems to be one of the more (um) progressive ones out there--definitely worth your closer look. I think I may be switching mine there this year. Agreed value policies are frequently used for older boats; with proper documentation as to the boat's value, most companies offer these policies, where the maximum amount they pay is charged for accordingly in your premium. More coverage = more premium, and vise-versa.

In your case, Tim, you need to insure your boat for more than your purchase price--fair market value is the norm. Your survey will give the insurance company the number they need. The boat's worth what it's worth regardless of what you paid for it.

[Ric in Richmond]

If you are in Virginia and want to talk insurance...just PM me!!

Yes....I work for the evil insurance company....I even used to do the claims for them.

We really aren't that evil...at least I am not!!

Ric

[Rachel]

Heh, after some paperwork procrastination on my part, I just sent off the check to Ric today for an agreed-value policy on my boat. I haven't had a claim, of course, but I can vouch for the fact that Ric and his staff have been most friendly and helpful. I'm sure he's nice to everyone who insures there, but it probably doesn't hurt we Plastic Classic types that he owns an early 60s Alberg 35 :D

Some of the other companies I contacted were downright annoying, especially when they found out how old my boat is <roll eyes> (I tried to point out that it's like a house, and all depends on build quality and maintenance/condition, but I got nowhere.) Other companies just wouldn't get back to me, or put up some other roadblock(s).

Thanks, Ric!

Rachel

[Tim Mertinooke]

BoatUS is just a starting point as it is a known entity to me due to the fact many in my yacht club use it. I specifically asked them if they would insure for higher than 10k should the surveyor deem it worth more and they told me no, that they would only insure for the purchased price. I conversed through e-mail yesterday with International Marine Insurance Services. Their response to that exact question was the following:

Since you paid $10,000 for it, my underwriters might not go much higher than that for insurance coverage. As an example, if the survey represents the boats value at $30,000, they might go somewhere in between ($15,000 to $20,000 ???).

I would understand if I had to pay a little more to get higher coverage, but that option is not available through the companies I've been dealing with. I am going to contact my Independent Isurance Agent tomorrow to see what options they may have. Progressive is out due to the state I live in.

Does anyone want to buy my boat for 30,000? I'll buy it right back from you on the spot.

[Rachel]

I ran into some of that "purchase price value" stuff too, but it seems ridiculous to me.

1) What if someone sells me a Block Island 40 for $10 tomorrow - does that mean it's worth $10? (And where is this person?)

2) I buy a house for $4000 in 1955. Today I can only insure it for $4000?

How annoying!

R.

[Tim Mertinooke]

What if a parent gave you a Hinckley worth half a million. Does that mean you can't get it insured? I love "what ifs"...

For the record my parents have an S2.

[Hirilondë]

So people like me who buy a near derelict for peanuts and put a bazillion hours into can only insure it for peanuts? I guess some of us here won't get ours from them (all of the thems who think sale price means something).

[Tim]

BoatUS is just a starting point as it is a known entity to me due to the fact many in my yacht club use it. I specifically asked them if they would insure for higher than 10k should the surveyor deem it worth more and they told me no, that they would only insure for the purchased price. I conversed through e-mail yesterday with International Marine Insurance Services. Their response to that exact question was the following:

Since you paid $10,000 for it, my underwriters might not go much higher than that for insurance coverage. As an example, if the survey represents the boats value at $30,000, they might go somewhere in between ($15,000 to $20,000 ???).

I would understand if I had to pay a little more to get higher coverage, but that option is not available through the companies I've been dealing with. I am going to contact my Independent Isurance Agent tomorrow to see what options they may have. Progressive is out due to the state I live in.

Does anyone want to buy my boat for 30,000? I'll buy it right back from you on the spot.

One of the main reasons insurers require surveys is to establish fair market value. I always found that the "condition" part of a C&V survey was ultimately less important to most who used the document for file-padding; mostly, insurance companies want to know how much financial risk they are underwriting.

Getting a good deal on something doesn't mean it's suddenly only worth that if it can be documented otherwise. Fair market value is a complicated concept despite its simplistic origins, but while purchase price often helps define the fair market value of an item, it's not the only factor. This is why surveyors exist: to use all available information in a subjective way to determine the actual fair market value. It's often very different from purchase price, whether lower or higher.

Keep searching and you'll find a reasonable insurer. Boat/US pretends to be a boater's advocate, but really they're just an advocate for Boat/US/. They are one of the most inflexible companies offering insurance, from my experience--particularly for older boats (square pegs) that don't fit into their round-hole, round-peg approach . Look elsewhere. Independent agents are a good choice, particularly if you have or find a good one who has your interests at heart, since they can consult a wider variety of underwriters to find a plan that works for your situation.

Unfortunately, attempts to apply logic to insurance companies rarely seem to work. But you don't need to accept what they're telling you at this point, in my opinion--it's simply not how it is. How can I say this for sure? Because I, and many others, have the actual proof (in the form of their own boats' policies) to show that purchase price is not the basis for insurable value.

[Ceasar Choppy]

The only reason I stayed with Boat/US was because their policy was cheaper on my other boat. I'm with IMS now with the new boat and not really happy with the policy terms. after all the work I've done to the new boat, I'm hoping to get a new survey this year to establish a higher value and start shopping for better rates on a higher insurance value.

I would agree with what Tim has said though. Really, it doesn't really matter what they say until you have a C&V survey in hand which establishes the value. If you talk to Boat/US without a survey, they will be going on BUC value and sale price. Neither of which is a really good indicator of the value of a boat especially after you have re-wired it and updated all the critical systems and hardware. This is what happened when I insured my Renegade with Boat/US after I had done all the work to it. They wouldn't insure it much past the BUC value until I produced a survey that said it was worth twice the BUC value. Then they were OK with it

What I find amusing is that most marine surveyors aren't really appraisers, yet they take on that role and formulate a value based on their experience and the sale prices from Yachtworld. ... which is why you need to find a good surveyor who can properly valuate your boat without just relying on Yachtworld. How many Tritons (for example) are sold through Yachtworld??? LOL

[Tim Mertinooke]

I have a survey scheduled for the first weekend in June. We'll take it from there.