Heavy weather sail options for an Alberg 30

[A30_John]

When sailing on Sunday I came upon conditions of about 20 knots of sustained wind with gusts ranging anywhere from about 25-30 knots. My desired course had me on a close reach. I had two reefs in the main and eventually reduced the genoa to 8 rolls on the furler to keep it from flogging and keep the worst of the spray off of it. Under this configuration it was heavy going, the boat wasn't driving well, and I was out of options with my available sails. I felt the boat should have been able to handle these conditions with relative ease, and concluded the problem stemmed from issues surrounding the deeply furled genoa. If I had the option, I would have been happy to roll up the genoa completely and set a jib on an inner forestay.

Here's what I'm thinking of doing:

1) Installing a solent stay on my boat. (This is a second removable forestay that goes to the masthead and fastens to the deck just behind the forestay (about 16" back fkrom the forestay). It doesn't require running back stays. (I want to avoid the complication of setting running backs when singlehanding.)

2) Adding a 100% jib and a high cut storm jib to the sail inventory.

In addition, I'll be replacing my traveler with a Garhauer unit and possibly look at a rigid vang to help with mainsail trim.

Any thoughts, comments, observations, or suggestions for improvement would be most helpful, thanks.

[Ceasar Choppy]

All sounds good. Roller Furllers just aren't efficient and reefing is even worse.

Been looking to do this on my boat actually. Main issue will be whether you go with permanent inner forestay or detachable. This if detachable, where/how to store it on deck. Another alternative is to use sails with high-tech line sewn into luff which would act as the stay. Only issue with that is getting enough tension on the stay. Some use a 2:1 or 3:1 halyard for this.

[A30_John]

Roller Furllers just aren't efficient and reefing is even worse.

I agree. I don't like roller reefing because of what it does to sail shape, and I feel the pressure on the furling line can only bring trouble via an eventual jam or broken furling line. I'd much prefer to set a jib at 20 knots of wind.

Been looking to do this on my boat actually. Main issue will be whether you go with permanent inner forestay or detachable. This if detachable, where/how to store it on deck. Another alternative is to use sails with high-tech line sewn into luff which would act as the stay. Only issue with that is getting enough tension on the stay. Some use a 2:1 or 3:1 halyard for this.

I favor a detachable stay so it's out of the way when tacking with the genoa. I think it should be possible to stow it next to the shrouds in some sort of looped shape. I'd like to hear from anyone who has tried sails with a built-in line for the stay. That would certainly simplify things. One possible concern could be the additional stresses on the halyard and block on the masthead.

[Eric]

I'm pretty happy most of the time with my roller furled 110%. I find that it performs pretty well when reefed (to maybe 75%), balances the second reef in the main nicely and the Triton seems to handle the 20-30k conditions well under this combination (at least 3-4 knots to windward).

Of course in light air, say less than 12 knots, I miss the old genny, but the change is too much effort. Also, by the time I'm ready to change back, it is blowing a steady 20 and that is way too much like work. I have carried the old sail without using it for the last two seasons, and next summer I think I'll leave it behind.

Maybe if I had a flash new genoa, I'd be thinking about the solent stay solution. Maybe if I didn't have the Harken roll-pin, I'd stick to hank on sails and forgo the now irresistible convenience of a roller furled headsail.

As it is, I'm seriously thinking about an asymmetrical spinnaker for those light air moments. One cut to perform well on a reach (like a code 0), but that I can run with as well. Set on its own luff with a sock (or maybe a roller furler if I can spare the extra boat unit), I think I would have fun playing with it as I can easily dowse it when conditions are still sane. Such a sail should out perform a genny in the really light stuff. and almost match it in wind speeds up to the point that the working jib with its superior pointing ability provides adequate power. I also expect that it will take less room and be easier to stow than a genoa on my little boat.

OK, so I know that this approach is not the conventional one, and I haven't completely pulled the trigger on it yet so this is all theoretical (at least it is for me), but I do think that it may be a viable solution to the problem and worth a few minutes consideration.

-- Eric

[Mark.Wilme]

There was an article in Cruising World magazine back along about adding a removable inner forestay - if you want a copy I'll fax it to you or send it snail mail, let me know.

Mark

[A30_John]

Thanks Eric, your approach definitely has merit. Since I've got a genoa on the furler already (about a 140%), and I find works ok for about 80% of my sailing, I'm committed to keeping that on my furler. Also I prefer the idea of hanking on the smaller sail as it is the easiest sail to manouver on deck with + I'm looking for a solution that will allow me to "retire" the furler in heavy air since I tend to get nervous about it jamming (probably totally unfounded, but I can't help it). I'll keep an eye out for you the next time I'm sailing around SW Haba!

Mark, I'm interested in the Cruising World article. Please check for a private message.

[Tim]

As it is, I'm seriously thinking about an asymmetrical spinnaker for those light air moments. One cut to perform well on a reach (like a code 0), but that I can run with as well. Set on its own luff with a sock (or maybe a roller furler if I can spare the extra boat unit), I think I would have fun playing with it as I can easily dowse it when conditions are still sane. Such a sail should out perform a genny in the really light stuff. and almost match it in wind speeds up to the point that the working jib with its superior pointing ability provides adequate power. I also expect that it will take less room and be easier to stow than a genoa on my little boat.

OK, so I know that this approach is not the conventional one, and I haven't completely pulled the trigger on it yet so this is all theoretical (at least it is for me), but I do think that it may be a viable solution to the problem and worth a few minutes consideration.

I think the Code 0 approach is a potentially excellent one. I have considered this for years, but as we discussed in another thread recently, the small size of the fractional Triton foretriangle limits the size and potential effectiveness of this sort of sail. I have always wished for a way to bring this sail to the masthead, but those jumpers...

My ideal would be for the lighter sail to be usable on at least a very close reach, if not quite a true beat, while still being large and full enough to work well on a run. Being able to point, say, 55? to the apparent wind on those very light air days would be fine, though the sail would most likely be used in a freer point of sail most of the time. But having the ability to point with it would make it as versatile as possible.

I tend to get nervous about it jamming (probably totally unfounded, but I can't help it).

This is a common fear, and is a hard one to get over. With today's modern furling equipment, though, it's virtually a non-issue--unless the user does something wrong. With older gear, it's anyone's guess.

Of course, anything can happen, and nothing is foolproof. But the furler is one part of my boat I never worry about, other than ensuring that it's maintained (not that modern furlers require any maintenance at all) and that the line rolls up properly on the drum when I unfurl the sail each time. Today's furlers are outstanding, reliable, and virtually maintenance free.

As far as reefing efficiency, the rule of thumb for a sail set on a roller furler is that about 30% of the area can be rolled without losing much in the way of shape or efficiency. That means your 140 could theoretically become about a 100%. This assumes that the sail on the furler is in good condition and properly built to accommodate the furling. Ideally, cruising boats should have easily adjustable genoa leads to allow the lead to be moved when the sail is partially rolled, since the clew will become higher and farther forward as you roll; my next boat will have these, as the proper sheet lead makes quite a difference in these situations. Garhauer makes a nice-looking set of under load-adjustable tracks.

[Robert The Gray]

I my self have been thinking of ways to use my two main headsails, an 80% blade and a high cut genoa. Both hank on. We have two wind seasons here on the bay. Every summer afternoon it is 20+. for 4 months this is damn near guarenteed. The mornings are often light but by 1pm I have to use the blade. I have entertained an idea to make a long bag that stays on the port bow and I could stow the light air sail in that. It would have compression straps to make it small. I find one of the great hassels is putting a wet salty sail down the fore hatch basically into my bedroom, the v-berth. I thought I could use a cord as a hank magazine to keep the luff of the sails orgainized and to avoid losing the sail over board. The wind dropping as I sail is rare, it often doesn't drop until about midnight or 1am. So my sail change that I would perform most often would be shifting to the smaller sail as the wind increases through the day. I'm beating up wind, it gets heavy, I hoist the mizzen, sheet it tight, let the main be loose and drop the genny, transfer hanks to magazine, stuff it in it's bag, blade is hanked on already, hoist the blade, drop the mizzen, get going. All this would be easier with a double forestay. not like a cutter but with both stays at the stem head. has any one used these? I think there are some challenges to it. but it would allow two head sails to be permenently hanked on.

[A30_John]

Robert, here's a link to a site where a double forestay solution was added to an Alberg 30 (scroll down about half way):

http://capehorn.com/sections/30%20ans/30ansAng.htm

Maybe I should look into that too-it would take care of the problem of stowing a solent stay. In fact, I think I need to read that description a few more times. In the past I've wondered if the dual forestay solution would be a bit funky because both stays are off center.. but now I'm more open to it.

Tim, thanks for the idea about the adjustable tracks. I'll look into that option too.

Whatever I do, I'm going to be doing something different next year.

[Robert The Gray]

thanks john

[Rachel]

All this would be easier with a double forestay. not like a cutter but with both stays at the stem head. has any one used these? I think there are some challenges to it. but it would allow two head sails to be permenently hanked on.

I sailed for a (short) while on a boat rigged with these. I say "short" because the boat's owner had already decided that he disliked them (after initially thinking they were a neat feature), and so shortly thereafter we removed them and replaced with a single. Hence, although these are my comments, all of the experience was not mine. But I certainly heard enough about how much better the single replacement was :-)

As I understood it, the problem(s) in this case were as follows: Since the boat is designed for a certain size headstay (i.e. the forces imposed by that particular size headstay when it is tensioned properly), when you change that into two headstays you have to downsize the wire, so that the force of properly tuning them does not exceed load ratings on other rigging and fittings.

Now, I'm not sure if this next bit is directly related to the new headstays being slightly smaller, or if it would happen no matter what size they were; but, since both wires were tensioned the same (as each other), the leeward headstay (with the sail on it) tended to sag and bow out to leeward and make for a really poorly shaped jib. Ugh.

I'm interested to hear if these problems have been overcome by anyone else, or if they are part-and-parcel of using dual headstays. Or perhaps something was not quite right in this particular installation?

--- Rachel

[keelbolts]

Robert The Gray,
Favona has double, parallel forestays. As a racer in the 50's, it was imperative the the leading edge on the foresail be straight so some boats, like mine, had Highfield slacking levers on the forestays. You would run the wire-luff jib up and then slack the forestay, thereby throwing the weight of the rig onto the sail's luff wire. Favona no longer has the slacking levers, but she retains the twin forestays. I love 'em. I can hank on one sail while the other drives the boat, haul the new sail up, and then drop the old one. I also frequently, when on a run, run my jib up one side & my genny up the other and sit back & let her sail herself down wind. It is true that neither forestay is tuned to the same tension a single would be tuned to, but it's really not an issue. A good sailmaker will take that into account and cut a slight hollow into the luff of your sail.

[catamount]

Ideally, cruising boats should have easily adjustable genoa leads to allow the lead to be moved when the sail is partially rolled, since the clew will become higher and farther forward as you roll; my next boat will have these, as the proper sheet lead makes quite a difference in these situations.

My boat has adjustable-under-load genoa sheet leads -- they do make a big difference, and help a lot when roller-reefing the 140% genoa.

As for the multiple headstay option, I gather that side-by-side twin headstays are problematic to keep tensioned properly. As an alternative, a lot of round-the-world racers have multiple headstays fore-and-aft each with their own sail and furler. I don't know how they keep them propery tensioned (multi-part purchases on the halyards?).

My father-in-law had an inner fore-stay added to his new CatalinaMorgan 400 that is just a few inches back from the main headstay. He keeps a large genoa on the front roller furler, and flys a 100% self-tacking working jib on the inner stay. When he's flying the genoa, the working jib would be doused. To tack the genoa, he rolls it up and then back out on the new tack. When he's flying the working jib, the genoa is rolled up.

Regards,

Tim

[Tim]

My father-in-law had an inner fore-stay added to his new CatalinaMorgan 400 that is just a few inches back from the main headstay. He keeps a large genoa on the front roller furler, and flys a 100% self-tacking working jib on the inner stay.

This setup is becoming more and more common. Other than the (probably minor) inconvenience of rolling the headsail to tack, it seems like a good solution in many cases. It can be such a pain to tack a large overlapping headsail around that maybe it's even easier with the rollup once you get into the habit of the new rythym

There is also the issue of the windage/air flow disruption caused by the rolled sail so close to the other sail, whichever is deployed. This doesn't seem to pose too much of a real problem in practice, apparently, given the proliferation of these sorts of rigs.

I want some sort of setup with dual, at-the-ready headsails on my next boat.

[keelbolts]

At the risk of getting kicked out of the forum, isn't the inner forestay setup an admission that roller furling ain't all it's cracked up to be. I've just never found hanking on my sail to be all that hard. If you don't like putting your sail away, you can get a bag to drop it into and leave it on the forestay.

[dasein668]

At the risk of getting kicked out of the forum, isn't the inner forestay setup an admission that roller furling ain't all it's cracked up to be. I've just never found hanking on my sail to be all that hard. If you don't like putting your sail away, you can get a bag to drop it into and leave it on the forestay.

Not really. I'd say that' I'm happy with my roller furling jib about 90-95 percent of the time. If I was going offshore it would be nice to have an inner forestay for a storm jib which I would rather fly from an inner forestay than the main forestay anyway.

For coastal cruising the only other sail I would want would be a light-air spinnaker/assym/drifter type of sail which doesn't need a stay at all.

[Figment]

The storm jib doesn't really need a stay either.

Have the storm jib made with a wire luff and a snapshackle at the tack.
Install a stout padeye in the middle of the (properly reinforced) foredeck.

It does what you need when you need it, and isn't a big hassle the other 97% of the time.

Stays are for stabilizing the rig. Sails can fly just fine on their own.

[keelbolts]

That sounds like an excellent way to go. One of the problems with using a roller furling foresail in heavy winds is that, though rolling it up reduces the sail area, it also moves that sail's center of effort up & out - the complete opposite of what you want. Setting your storm jib in as you're descibing is the way to go. The down side is that you need to connect the padeye to a structural member, generally a length of wire, that transfers the luff tension to the keel/stem.

[Tim]

At the risk of getting kicked out of the forum, isn't the inner forestay setup an admission that roller furling ain't all it's cracked up to be.

No, I don't think so. I'm the first to admit the limitations of a roller furling system. I've done so about a dozen times on this forum. Like everything else, roller furling is a compromise solution. Overall, it's a pretty effective compromise. The convenience factor wins out for me every time. Obviously, others feel differently, and are certainly entitled to.

The single sail, with its convenient deployment, storage, and reefing capability, works well nearly all the time for the way most people sail. A 95% usefulness factor (non-scientific, of course) is pretty good, in my book. Does using a system, such as hanks, that means you gave to change headsails 2 or 3 times over a 20-knot range of wind mean that that system isn't all it's cracked up to be either?

My point is that what one person sees as a downfall can be viewed differently by another--and legitimately so. One choice isn't better than another--they're just different choices, and, like everything in life, one size does not fit all.

In my current boat, I've only wished for a larger, lighter sail for those really light days--never a smaller one. My furling headsail is sized so that it can be effectively rolled to a pretty small size. I've never had to roll it up that far during use, though--maybe up to 20%. It works well in this type of usage. My genoa works in light winds too, but a larger, lighter sail would be nice. This would be true regardless of the furling option.

If one like to go sailing when the wind is over, say, 25 knots, then obviously one has different headsail needs than when the wind during your sailing remains below 20 knots. One sail will never, ever do it all--furler or no furler. But one sail can effectively cover a wide range of conditions alone if set on a furler and used correctly.

One of the limitations of furling headsails is that indeed the center of effort moves forward and upwards as the sail is rolled. Absolutely true, and this is why there is a limit (around 30%) to how much one can really roll a headsail with any hope of effectiveness. However, in a pinch even a poorly-shaped and wrongly-centered sail will get you home, if that's the requirement.

Most furling headsails shouldn't be used in storm winds for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. I feel the need, once again, to separate the coastal sailing that we all do from the sort of offshore, all-weather sailing that everyone likes to somehow bring into the equation when discussing these things. If you're going offshore where winds of widely varying strengths can be expected, then obviously a more versatile setup is prudent. This would include at least one additional headsail to cover a different range of wind strengths, plus true storm sails. I don't need storm sails for the coastal sailing that I do.

For offshore work on a theoretical boat, I would prefer a cutter-type headsail layout, with a larger, lighter-air sail set forward and to the masthead (assuming a masthead rig), and a second sail set inboard for heavier conditions. I am working on this sort of rig modification for Pixie.

Limitations? You bet there are. Just like there are limitations to any single sail that is hanked on. The benefit of a furling system (and since any decent system sold today also reefs, I don't bother saying "furling/reefing" when it should just be understood as default) is that that single sail will cover the normally-encountered wind strengths effectively without needing to change sails.

These are the reasons that furlers work for me. Your needs, habits, and other factors may indicate a different solution.

Have the storm jib made with a wire luff and a snapshackle at the tack. Install a stout padeye in the middle of the (properly reinforced) foredeck.

The down side is that you need to connect the padeye to a structural member, generally a length of wire, that transfers the luff tension to the keel/stem.

The deck on a fiberglass boat can often be reinforced effectively in one way or another to avoid a need to directly transfer the loads to hefty structural members, as is the case in wooden boats. With a well-built fiberglass boat acting as a monocoque structure, loads are transferred throughout the structure in a variety of ways.

That said, a heavy-duty attachment for something like a true storm jib should probably have a very significant reinforcement beneath, given its designed purpose for storm winds. This could be accomplished with a web frame-type partial bulkhead that wouldn't overly intrude on the interior space beneath.

[Duncan]

The convenience factor wins out for me every time.
...But one sail can effectively cover a wide range of conditions alone if set on a furler and used correctly.
...
However, in a pinch even a poorly-shaped and wrongly-centered sail will get you home, if that's the requirement.

I think that's the nub of it, and I suspect that cutting down the 140 to a 120 might be just the trick. (I've heard that the extra overlap is not very effective anyway.) If 80% of the time the 140 is ok, then a nice reacher with a snuffer would probably get used more (and be more fun) than a storm blade on an inner forestay.

If things get sporty with the reacher, then snuffing it and having a 120 to fall back on sounds about right. You could probably test (or attest) to how she sails with a couple of rolls on the 140? And the vang on the main might keep you to one reef in 20 knots, which would probably drive the boat nicely without too much drama.

I don't need storm sails for the coastal sailing that I do.

I have a beautiful storm jib, fresh as a daisy, never been used, and I'm not the only one, from what I can tell. It was the previous owner's Christmas present to himself - maybe I should "re-gift" it. But I might need it someday...

For offshore work on a theoretical boat, I would prefer a cutter-type headsail layout, with a larger, lighter-air sail set forward and to the masthead (assuming a masthead rig), and a second sail set inboard for heavier conditions. I am working on this sort of rig modification for Pixie.

That sounds very practical for that boat and those conditions.

[keelbolts]

Yeah, I don't think many of us ever wear out a storm jib. I've only had mine on once on the Chesapeake Bay. I was down to the 3rd reef and the storm jib with the toe rail in the water.

I agree that a "cutter rig" would be hard to beat. As for the inner stay getting in the way, I've sailed many a time on a friend's boat that has an inner forestay. Except for one time where we were close tacking up a river directly up wind, and I ran the sail from side to side, we never seemed to have any trouble tacking/jibing. The foresail simply slid around the stay and filled on the other side.

[A30_John]

since both wires were tensioned the same (as each other), the leeward headstay (with the sail on it) tended to sag and bow out to leeward and make for a really poorly shaped jib. Ugh.

I'm interested to hear if these problems have been overcome by anyone else, or if they are part-and-parcel of using dual headstays. Or perhaps something was not quite right in this particular installation?

--- Rachel

Yves Gelinas only keeps one forestay under tension at a time. When he uses a hank on sail to sail to windward he tensions the second forestay with a turnbuckle. When he uses the sail on the furler he releases tension on the second stay. For all intents and purposes this is a solent stay that has the advantage of being permanently fixed. It has the added advantage of not interfering with the sail on the furler when tacking. At this point, the only disadvantage I can see with this solution is the need for a new stem head fitting (and possibly masthead fitting as well).

Quoting Yves Gelinas: While I did not use the twin headstays in the circumnavigation, I have since added a roller-furling jib and a few seasons ago and I made the experiment of rigging the furling system on one side, and having an other stay next to it, on which I could hank either a smaller jib, or a larger reacher. This arrangement worked so well that it became permanent and I consider that it is an excellent option for offshore sailing. The usual disadvantage of a double head stay is that if both are equally tight, there can never be adequate tension on the one used, which sags to leeward. So I loosen the turnbuckle on the unused stay when I use the furler, and re-crank it when I use it to sail to windward.

http://capehorn.com/sections/30%20ans/30ansAng.htm

[bcooke]

Just a thought for the removable inner stay idea.

How about using the mooring bit as the attachment point on deck? A strap around the pins and lashed tight (there is a term for this but it is escaping me for the moment... monkeying maybe?) would be pretty secure and hopefully the bit is secured well enough to the deck for your purposes.

Then, if you accept the idea that carrying a storm jib on a stay is not totally necessary you can just hoist up the jib using either your masthead jib halyard or a dedicated halyard located somewhere lower on the mast.

If you don't have a mooring bit then you might find you like the upgrade. I like mine a lot better than the old 10 inch cleat.

Unless you were planning on a lot of heavy weather sailing I would think this compromise would get you through without having to redesign the whole rig.

-Britton

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi John,


I've been enjoying the thread and wanted to bring up one aspect of heavy air sailing that I haden't seen mentioned -- and that is that boats have an upper wind limit in which they can no longer make progress to windward no matter what the sail configuration is. I used to own Pearson Triton #236 "Ca Ira" and after I restored that boat and had made it pretty much bulletproof my friends and I did a fair bit of extreme heavy air sail testing back in 2001 and 2002. I mention this in your thread because I would think that the sailing qualities of the A30 are very similar to those of the Triton.

My friend Rod Hayes ( who I own the Wavelength 24 with ) owns a sail loft in Gloucester, VA and we would spend time on the winter weekends talking about sail design and making up speciality heavy air sails and then my friends and I would test them out whenever a winter gale would blow across the lower Chesapeake. ( Rod himself wasn't crazy enough for this part of the job ) At that time, both the Coast Guard and the Virginia Institute of Marine Science maintained research buoys with annometers near the mouth of the York River that were tied into web sites. Combined with a GPS timer this would give extremely accurate wind data as long as you were near one of the stations. The exact details of those test sails are probably still on the National Triton Association webpage somewhere.

The upshot of these winter adventures was that we got to test out a lot of sail combinations and one of the things we found out was that you could not sail a Triton to weather ( even slightly to weather like 80 degrees ) in above 41 knots of true wind -- the boat would just lay over on its side even with no sails up at all. On the plus side, even laying all the way over, the Triton would not take on any water and was actually very quiet inside. I remember getting a note from James Baldwin afterwards describing how he once spent four straight days in this position off the coast of South America. He and his sailing partner just relaxed on the submerged side of the boat -- Eventually the wind let up, the boat popped back up, and off they sailed.

One of the other things we learned was that a storm Trysail was useless if you needed to make distance to weather. My favorite rig on the Triton was an ultra heavy third reef I had worked into one of the old mains that projected a grand total of 24 feet of sail. That combined with a tiny blade jib ( I forget the exact sq. ft. but it was very small ) and 35 knots of true wind speed was an absolute blast. You could always tell when the wind creeped up above 40 knots though, the boat would just heel a little bit more and then stop moving forward.

Anyway, I know that this upper wind limit stuff doesn't mean much on the open ocean where you can run off before the wind. Good to know if you are near a lee shore though. Also good to know that those old Alberg designs are pretty much unsinkable.


George

[Jason K]

Anyway, I know that this upper wind limit stuff doesn't mean much on the open ocean where you can run off before the wind. Good to know if you are near a lee shore though. Also good to know that those old Alberg designs are pretty much unsinkable.

That is remarkable and extremely interesting. I'm off the the NTA site to read more.

[keelbolts]

#218,
Let us know if you find it. Thanks

Years ago, when we & our boats were younger, my buddy & I made it a point to go out when small craft advisories were up. I remember people on the pier asking us if we knew of the advisory and we'd say, " Yes, thank you. That's why we're going."

[George ( C&C 40 )]

Hi Jason and Keelbolts,


I was curious myself after all these years and went back a few minutes ago to see what I could find. I couldn't find anything in the MIR so I went into the Triton Yahoo Groups mesages themselves to see what there was. The information still appears to be there amongst the various threads. I was able to find a few references to those sail tests under a thread called "modified full keel" and another one called "Heavy weather sail combo?". I'm sure the others will surface if you spend some time hunting. There's not too much more to tell though, we only did four or five actual heavy air sail tests before the recording annometer station was taken down.

It was fun to look back at those old threads though. I even went all the way back and found my very first thread about my very first sailboat. Ahhhh, those were the days :-)

Hi John, sorry to hijack your thread for a moment. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane.


George

[Ceasar Choppy]

The upshot of these winter adventures was that we got to test out a lot of sail combinations and one of the things we found out was that you could not sail a Triton to weather ( even slightly to weather like 80 degrees ) in above 41 knots of true wind -- the boat would just lay over on its side even with no sails up at all. On the plus side, even laying all the way over, the Triton would not take on any water and was actually very quiet inside.

This is consistent with what I found on my Pearson Renegade. A storm jib and a deep second reef and she would sail OK except to weather. Anything but downwind and her rail was in the water. One of the biggest problems on Chesapeake Bay, however, was the chop. At 40+ knots, the chop was 4-5 feet in places and would stop the 27' boat cold.

I suspect this would be a little different on the ocean, but frankly, when the wind gets this high, I find it better to heave-to and wait the storm out if you can. I've been in many storms in the Atlantic over 40 knots and its much better for crew and boat if you aren't trying to push it. OK... sorry for the hijack.

Figment, in regards to your comment about the integral wire luff in the sail. I think this is a great idea-- except you still have to find a way to properly tension the wire.

[Summersdawn]

Has anyone had any experience with a Gale Sail? It seems like it might be a good comprimise.

[Duncan]

Here's another option I just came across - Anzam Reef Rite Furler

The essence of it seems to be that by having twin grooves on the furler extrusion, you can pre-load another sail (or fly two at once downwind). They use slides instead of a luff tape, and some of the details look like they have paid attention to getting things right.

If it's not too good to be true, this looks like you get to roller-reef, run twin headsails, pre-load a storm sail, and bypass the issue of multiple forestays while you're at it? I'm still not quite clear how it works in practice, but it seems worth considering.

[A30_John]

Has anyone had any experience with a Gale Sail? It seems like it might be a good comprimise.

Has anyone on the forum tried a gale sail? This is an interesting concept. If this sail works decently to weather, it could be a good place for me to start.

George: Thanks for the info on your research into storm sails for the Triton. Very interesting. I suspect the A30 would behave very similarly in the conditions you describe.

Duncan: The Reef Rite furler looks promising, but I wouldn't want to have to remove my genoa in heavy weather. In fact, today I had enough problems controling it while taking it off the furler in about 10k of breeze. It sure makes me appreciate having the furler.

[bcooke]

I was just looking over the "Rigging Only" (www.riggingonly.com) website mentioned in another thread recently. I noticed that they have a catalog page just for fittings that make up a removable inner stay. Might be worth a look.

-Britton

[A30_John]

Thanks Britton. I've noted the site. I'm still investigating the gale sail as a potential solution. If it doesn't look like the way to go, I'll probably do the inner forestay. These guys have some good options for hardware.