V-berth & watertank refurbish

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Cruiser2B
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V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Here are a few pick of my V-berth from before and as of today. I am going to make it more habitable as the wife would say. I am also going to remove the watertake cover, clean and inspect the tank the tank.
before.....
before.....
IMG-20111109-00087.jpg
IMG-20111109-00083.jpg
this is the top of the tank...can only imagine whats inside!
this is the top of the tank...can only imagine whats inside!
Any and all ideas and pics would be helpful of what you have done to your v-berth. I am going to add a cover to the chain locker, LED lights and fresh paint. I am thinking of adding boards "slats" to the stringers on the lower portion of the v-berth that is common on alot of boats i see. I am also going to add a foot water pump to the water tank plumbing. I will keep you posted on the progress.
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Rachel
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Rachel »

Thanks for the photos. The good thing about it being dark and "uninhabitable" now is that you will have such a nice contrast with your "after" photos :)

I see you do have the cleats along the hull sides; I like the idea of adding "slats," which - just so you know and can maybe see some examples via search - are called "ceiling." (The underside of the deck is called the "overhead.")

Some people have insulated behind the ceiling, between the cleats; others leave it for air space. Traditionally, on wooden boats, it was valuable ventilation space and I have read that some boats had little blocks of salt up top so that salt would run down behind the ceiling and keep the wood "salted" and healthy. Not that ventilation is a bad thing on a fiberglass boat - far from it; but it's not as "life or death" as on wooden boats, so you can insulate if you choose to.

I like to see the ceiling strips run parallel to the deck (vs. parallel to the berth flats) because, well, I think it looks good and because it's more "natural" for how wooden boats are built. That said, I have seen it run either way on fiberglass boats, and with the shelves there I suppose parallel to the berth flats might be simpler (I would still go the other way myself though).

Thanks for "bringing us along."

Rachel

PS: Do take photos of the tank "excavation"!
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Went to the boat today and removed the wood plug in the V structure that is in the way of getting the tank lid off. I also removed the wooden trime pieces on the shelves. The shelf on the port side seems to have some rot in it plywood..
taken when we initially bought ole sal
taken when we initially bought ole sal
P1302152resize.jpg (17.55 KiB) Viewed 9698 times
just below the forward chainplate knee, so i will replace it. how do i tell if the chainplate knee is rotten too? it looks like it is completed encased in several layers od roven woven cloth...
as you can see boat was very damp inside when we bought her.
as you can see boat was very damp inside when we bought her.
P1302153resize.jpg (19.54 KiB) Viewed 9698 times
the knee feels solid and i cannot compress it at all, but if it is infact rotten, could I split the knee down the center, remove rotten wood, clean it up and install new plywood with epoxy of course and the then just glass over the existing roven material?........ i guess what i am asking can this be repaired without cutting the entire knee out? Thanks more pics to follow.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Thanks, i guess my thought process is that the wood in the knee really just allows you to tighten the bolts of the chainplate without collasping the fiberglass, it seems that the fiberglass mat does the securing or the work load.....oh well, i wasnt trying to be lazy but just trying to maintain the original integrity of the design.

what i have read is that the boat 1/4 machine screws are suspect to breaking....as you can see mine are original, not the knee itself. in Yves-cape horn site he says his bolts sheered off which lead to his dimasting....on the Alberg 30 site site it says to enlarge the holes/bolts to 5/16 or double the number of 1/4" bolts. Either way, thank you for the advice i am always looking to make it better. i am pretty ignorant when it comes to boat repair! I will be replacing the chainplates over the winter as well(part of the original plan anyway). i will post more pics of progress over the weekend. i hope to have water tank cover off by then.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Rachel »

Cruiser2B wrote:... i wasnt trying to be lazy but just trying to maintain the original integrity of the design.
Just a note, and it's my opinion - other people's may vary. If you don't have to - or don't want to - do something like remove the knee, then fine. But I wouldn't even for a minute worry about "maintaining the integrity of the design" when it comes to things like structural/systems installations.

What I mean is, that of course yes, you want any repair or replacement to be at least as good as it was in the first place and to be comfortably adequate for the intended purpose. But what I'm also saying is that as wonderful as the overall design (i.e. hull shapes/basic concept) of many of our plastic classics is, much of the actual building was usually done to a price, by people who were closer to "day laborers" than they were to "craftspeople." I don't mean that as a dig, because I like plastic classics; it's just the way it was. In addition, in many cases they were working with "wood brain" but on a fiberglass boat. You can often do better now.

So typically, if you make a repair, it's going to be easy (and often desirable) to make it better (which may mean slightly different) than the original. And tidier.

A few examples, some from my Alberg 30 (but that could apply to so many plastic classics), others from other boats I've known:

1) Through hulls: Some were pipes with washers peened over on the outside, some were brass gate valves. The backing blocks were painted plywood. I changed them to bronze, flanged seacocks with solid fiberglass backing blocks - without a second thought.

2) Chainplate knees: Many of our boats have encapsulated wooden knees, which can easily trap water and rot. Some have the actual stainless plates encapsulated (ugh), or mild steel fasteners. Once these are 30+ years old, you will often want to replace/re-new them. Very likely it would be best to use a different method or shape than they originally did.

3) Floors (i.e. sole support structure). My A-30 was put together with "house nails." If you were going to change or repair it... probably not nails again.

4) Bulkheads: Originally many weren't spaced out from the hull and most I've seen don't have fillets for the tabbing. If for any reason you rebuilt one, you would probably want to change that.

5) Mast support beams: Often de-laminating or inadequately installed. They can be improved.

You probably get the idea. I have heard people say "Well it has lasted 40 years, so why change it?" Obviously if "it" has lasted 40 years and is still *fine* then there is no need to. But if it is hanging on by a thread, or is simply ready for preventive repair, then why not also improve it?(Obviously this depends on the situation. There's no need to reinvent every wheel; but also no need to stay with what's there just *because* it is what's there.) Oftentimes I find it's actually easier to just tear whatever it is out and start fresh, because it's actually more frustrating and time-consuming to work around this one bit that you are trying to "save."

Some people feel "But Alberg was a great designer!" I agree, but my guess is he did not design many of these "systems" details, and that instead it was left up to the builder, who was going for expediency.

In summary, I feel that many of the "installations" on our plastic classics were not built as well as they could be, for various reasons. So while you need to be sure you don't change anything so that it is less sturdy than before; you can probably assume that most things were built "to a price," and you can at least consider afresh what the best way to do it (nowadays and not in a "factory" setting) would be.

Whew, that got wordy. Sorry!

Rachel
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I have noticed that these boat were not contructed to the "tightest" of tolerances:)
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Tallystick »

Nice post Rachel, very true.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Rachel,
Thank you for the input, I understand what you are saying. i want to fix all that is necessary but do not want to get into a full refit...I would like to enjoy the boat a few more(2-3) years before doing a major refit. I was hoping to spruce up the V-berth area to make it a bit more liveable and have the ability to use our water tank. However I will fix or replace anything that effects the safety of the crew and or boat. This is one reason I am addressing the standing rigging and chainplates. they look original and i know for a fact the bolts are.

I am posting this project here because I believe I will get the straightest, unbiased and, most of all, correct answer to my question about my classic alberg!

Thank you guys
I am headed to the boat this weekend and will hopefully get the wood out and tank lid off. What type of wood should i use for the "slats" in the v-berth? I thought about red oak with several coats of varnish, but see that is not a "boat" wood as it is porous and easily rots. Should i use Mahogany?

Jason
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Tallystick »

White oak would work much better than red oak.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Tallystick wrote:White oak would work much better than red oak.

yeah, thats what have read. i think i may spend the extra few buck and get mahogany. i called this motning and can get what i want for 100 buck or so
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Hirilondë »

Tallystick wrote:White oak would work much better than red oak.
If you were building the frames for a traditional wooden plank on frame boat, or building something that lives in the bilge I would agree. But for cosmetic ceiling I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference what you use. I don't think rot is a real issue here. Oak is heavy if that is a concern. Many have chosen various types of cedar to keep the weight down. Many like a light colored wood to help keep it brighter up there as there is a limited supply of natural light.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Rachel »

Cruiser2B wrote:Rachel,
Thank you for the input, I understand what you are saying. i want to fix all that is necessary but do not want to get into a full refit...
... However I will fix or replace anything that effects the safety of the crew and or boat.
I've found that to be the tricky part. How to draw the right line between those two things. And, I think that line is different for everyone (not that physical components get any stronger or weaker subjectively, but speaking from the people/owner end of the equation).

I know that for myself, I just can't enjoy sailing if I'm worried about something breaking. So I tear it apart to fix it (and usually see that, yeah, that was a good idea). But that always leads to other things, and next thing you know you can have a gutted project. Meanwhile you notice that the other people out there with "inadequate" boats are sailing and sipping rum drinks at sunset*. That's not so bad if you were planning that from the start; if you wanted to go sailing next week... not so good.

It's a fine art figuring out where to draw the line, and when.

On the ceiling. I have seen cypress and ash used, so you might consider those. I think there are some photos on the board of Tehani (CharlieJ's boat), and he used ash. Tim used Cypress, if I remember correctly, on the Daysailor (which you can see on the NorthernYacht site and maybe here as well).

Rachel

*Of course some boats do break... masts fall down, rotten hoses fall off and they sink at the dock etc. But still.... a lot are out sailing.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Tallystick »

Ah ok, I didn't realize we were talking about the ceiling. If weight is a concern, then wouldn't the thickness of the wood be the main consideration? I like the ash idea for a ceiling, but as long as the strips are thin, you could probably use a lot of wood species without problem.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Rachel »

[Edited to improve/add photos]
Here are a couple of photos showing the ash ceiling on CharlieJ's "Tehani," which is a 25' CCA-type design. The strips are fairly thin (they re-sawed them), but not overly so. You can't see anything exact in these photos, but they give some idea of the overall scale/thickness:
Cutting ceiling strips
Cutting ceiling strips
Varnished strip stock
Varnished strip stock
Originally the hullsides in the v-berth were just painted fiberglass. The cleats are 1/2" ply, kerfed on the outboard side and set in thickened epoxy (the paint was ground off in preparation). The insulation is 1/2" polyisocyanurate, friction fit.

A couple of notes:

1) As you can see, these strips were run parallel to the berth flat. Another way is to run them parallel with the deck.

2) You can just see a pair of lockers port and starboard at the after ends of the berth. These were added (and not quite finished here; they later got fiddles, etc.) and created quite a bit of stowage.
1/2" ply cleats installed
1/2" ply cleats installed
Insulated
Insulated
Ash ceiling
Ash ceiling
Ash ceiling detail
Ash ceiling detail
Also, I decided to double-check what I said about the Daysailor project (Windsong). Cypress is what was used for ceiling. Here is a photo of it, finished:
Cypress ceiling
Cypress ceiling
And here is a link to the description of making and installing it:
http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/ ... erior7.htm
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by earlylight »

Ash and Cypress are commonly used woods for hull ceilings. I used satinwood primarily because a friend had a large supply and it looks very similar to cypress when varnished.

Here is a pic of satinwood ceilings installed aboard Early Light.

Image
Satinwood hull ceilings in V-berth
I have documented the v-berth hull ceiling project on my website at http://earlylight160.110mb.com/HullCeilings.html


I also added ceilings in the salon book shelves and locker spaces. This project is documented at http://earlylight160.110mb.com/HullCeilingsSalon.html


I hope this is helpful.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Rachel »

Back on the subject of chainplate knees, I happened to run across the installation log for a set of fiberglass knees on the Triton "Circe," while I was looking for something else, and I thought of this thread:

http://www.lackeysailing.com/circe/august09/82509.htm

(There are "Previous" and "Next" links at the bottom of each page.)

A sample photo:
knee.jpg
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Well, I got the wood work loose and put forward. i then drilled the rivets in tank cover and got the tank lid off. it was not nice in there, black mold, dirt and the underside of the aluminum lid was just horrible, severely corroded
IMG-20111120-00107resize.jpg
IMG-20111120-00107resize.jpg (18.72 KiB) Viewed 9557 times
wood work removed
wood work removed
IMG-20111120-00110resize.jpg (17.72 KiB) Viewed 9557 times
Yuck!
Yuck!
IMG-20111120-00114resize.jpg (18.61 KiB) Viewed 9557 times
I have the tank lid in the truck, i will take a pic and post it tomorrow. Now i need a new lid and possibly a pick up assembly. where to get a piece os starboad large enough, has to be 42"x36"x 1/4" min.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I am going to make a new tank lid, want to use starboard......but the piece i need is $250+.........yikes!!!!!!! so i am still think of what would be an alternative. I am think epoxy coated plywood. Can I use this kit no matter ehat material I use,Water Tank Relocation Kit for Todd Poly Tanks Model # 486613? Can you guys think of alternatives to $250 starboard? Thanks
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

good question, never worked with it before, but that was used in the link above in another alberg 30 similar to mine.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Rachel »

I'm not sure what I would use in your situation, but I wouldn't use Starboard. Reasons being that it is not particularly rigid, it's heavy for what you get, its surface tends to pick up dirt and not be "cleanable," and it does not take adhesives well. (I'm also not sure how it rates in the "healthy, non-leaching, potable" arena, but since I would already have ruled it out I wouldn't/haven't checked.)

My preference for water tanks is a complete stainless steel tank, but that doesn't fit in with re-using what you have, hence my not having a ready answer for what I would do with your existing tank.

Thanks for the photos,
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Tallystick »

A newer material option that could be used as a barrier coating between the plywood and water is polysiloxane. It's a low toxicity material that is used in food grade applications, and it has superior properties over polyurethanes and epoxies in many respects. Ameron sells it under the name PSX-700. I've used it on my boat.

It was originally developed as the space shuttle launch pad coating. http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1996/67.html
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I have been thinking about this all day. I am going to make a plywood lid and epoxy coat it. This only has to last a couple of years and will not break the bank( i am doing the standing rigging this winter too). It will also give me some much needed experience with west system. I did some internet research and went to Atomvoyaging site, then asked around today and feel comfortable with the epoxy. I will keep you guys posted with pics.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I have made some progress this past week. I got the old tank lid stripped down and removed all the old fitting. I will reuse them in my new lid. i went and bought my first gallon of west system. I got the new lid cut out of 1/4" plywood and got one side epoxy coated. I removed and sanded some of the wood trim from the v-berth. my intention was to replace it but after some sanding it is cleaning up quite nicely. I have some pics and i will upload later this evening.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Nasty old lid top side with pickup still installed
Nasty old lid top side with pickup still installed
IMG-20111125-00125resize.jpg (29.94 KiB) Viewed 9447 times
even nastier bottom, completely corroded.....i dont think a little bleach would have cleaned this up!
even nastier bottom, completely corroded.....i dont think a little bleach would have cleaned this up!
IMG-20111125-00127resize.jpg (24.05 KiB) Viewed 9447 times
new lid...ah yes...the proper tools! :)
new lid...ah yes...the proper tools! :)
IMG-20111125-00128resize.jpg (24.64 KiB) Viewed 9448 times
bottom side of new lid, with a single coat of epoxy
bottom side of new lid, with a single coat of epoxy
IMG-20111126-00129resize.jpg (19.71 KiB) Viewed 9447 times
I plan on about 5 layers of epoxy with 2 layer of fiberglass 6oz cloth on the bottom and the same for the top with the exception of only one layer of fiberglass. I am also going to glass edges all the way around with some 4" fg tape. I am not sure if this is correct, so place let me know if you would cover this plywood lid differently.

BTW took a bolt out of forward chainplate knees and wood seems solid. i poked around in there pretty good. i happy to see no corrosion on bolts themselves. they looked nasty from outside, but once removed looked small...but ok. i think my plan is to do lower shroud chainplates first then do the uppers while mast is still up. then remove mast and redo rigging. this way mast does not have to stay off long. I am going to order chainplate material this week. 1 1/2" x 1/4" 316 stainless.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

made some progress. I have the lid just about finished. I took it to the boat this weekend for a test fit...all is good and tight.
just finshed cutting hole for fill, vent and pickup
just finshed cutting hole for fill, vent and pickup
IMG-20111204-00159resize.jpg (19.77 KiB) Viewed 9404 times
there it is in place...nice and snug!
there it is in place...nice and snug!
IMG-20111204-00160resize.jpg (20.27 KiB) Viewed 9404 times
I think I am going to have to sand and coat the entire tank. all the black spots seem to have eaten into the gelcoat???. I tried scrubbing it with a heavy cleaner... no luck...takes some of it all but not all of it. Looks like i will sand and epoxy coat the whole tank.
As you can see in this pic the black spots are pitted into the fiberglass gelcoat. that brown crap is just nasty.
As you can see in this pic the black spots are pitted into the fiberglass gelcoat. that brown crap is just nasty.
IMG-20111120-00114resize.jpg (18.61 KiB) Viewed 9403 times
I will post some pics of the v-berth wood trim. I took it home and sanded almost all of...looks great. I think I am gonna coat it with some semi-gloss polyurathane. I havent decided. i may go with a full gloss.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I got the tank all cleaned and ready for a few coats of resin rich west system. i looked at many options and decided this would be the best and most cost effective way to go. i also pulled my chainplates. I also bagan sanding the overhead. the paint was pretty puch falling off. i think i am down to the gelcoat, but still lots of sanding left! been pretty good sailing weather here. I have been kind of bummed about not getting out.
still have to touch up corners by hand.
still have to touch up corners by hand.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

been making slow and steady progress. I have removed alot of the old paint from the overheads. I am taking the mast off on Monday...I will have some pics soon....berthing area too nasty for my cell phones
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I havent posted much vberth progress lately, because there hasnt been much in the vberth. I completely replaced all standing rigging, chainplate and most other rigging related stuff instead. I will get to the vberth.
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Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

I know I have been away for a while. Unfortunately I was on a not so enjoyable trip to Afghanistan. I have returned safely and I am now back to getting the vberth and water tank finished. I finished replacing all the standing rigging and got the mast back up just a few day before leaving back in February. While I had the vberth torn down I decided to redo my holding tank as well. I had a very small one in there from the previous owner. I could not find one that was fit the space so i have decide to make one from plywood and epoxy. I cut away some of the liner to increase the size and capacity. I figure from the dimensions I should have about an 11 gallon tank when finished. I am determined to go cruising the chesapeake this year so I have alot of work ahead of me. I will keep you all posted on progress.
initial pieces being fitted
initial pieces being fitted
epoxied it in place(not to the hull) so I could get the proper angles. I will build the rest on the bench. More pics to follow
epoxied it in place(not to the hull) so I could get the proper angles. I will build the rest on the bench. More pics to follow
www.svsalacia.blogspot.com
Preparing to get underway!!
Cruiser2B
Topside Painter
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:27 pm
Boat Name: Salacia
Boat Type: Alberg 30

Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

check out our blog too. i worked on it while in Afghanistan


www.svsalacia.blogspot.com
www.svsalacia.blogspot.com
Preparing to get underway!!
TampaBay
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:46 pm
Boat Type: Coronado 15

Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by TampaBay »

The boat is looking good. I hope you get it splashed, and enjoy a decent summer.
seasailor55
Rough Carpentry Apprentice
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:32 pm
Boat Type: Cape Dory 22 Pearson Ensign

Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by seasailor55 »

Cape Dory 22's (another Alberg design) have ash ceilings, with satin finish varnish. Very nice and classy.
There's a 15 gallon water tank under the v-berth.
Attachments
Cape Dory Bedroom.JPG
Cruiser2B
Topside Painter
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:27 pm
Boat Name: Salacia
Boat Type: Alberg 30

Re: V-berth & watertank refurbish

Post by Cruiser2B »

Did some mor fitting today, tank is coming along well. I bought a few bulkhead 1 1/2 fitting to go thru the lid, this will allow me to use pluming elbows for in/out of the tank. I will post pics tomorrow.
www.svsalacia.blogspot.com
Preparing to get underway!!
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