First project of the year

[Paulus]

I never liked the fact that the "Instruments" switch on my little 12V panel would turn on the depth sounder and knot log, which do not have their separate turnoff switches, in order to listen to the radio while on the hook.



I removed the panel and took it home to see if I could re-arrange, or add, some switches... Upon closer examination, I decided it needed replacement. Note the charred lines at some of the switches... my son thinks this may be from a lightning hit... ( the switches in question all power stuff up the main mast) - I on the other hand am hoping that whoever put this together used a torch to do the soldering and had, errrr..., bad aim...



Either way, I decided to make a new little panel with some extra switches....

In keeping with the classic look of the boat - everything being made of wood, I decided to see if I could make a panel from oak...

Turned out pretty nice - I will have four additional switches, plus I decided to put a designated LED to show power at the panel - mainly to remind me to throw the main switch before I leave the boat (frequently forgotten last season)...

While at it, I also changed the H2O and Propane indicator lights to LEDs - too bad all I could get my hands on were amber - I may change the panel Power LED to green once I can find one.

This is still the rough panel, fitted with the hardware to make sure it fits and makes sense. The camera seems to distort the edges - it is a perfect rectangle ;>)



Now, for this learned group - is there any objection or consideration for using wood for a panel? Of course, this little panel will be stained, sealed and varnished before it is finally mounted in place of the old one, but before I go nuts making it pretty and fit it, I figured I would run it by here... I do have a fresh piece of black 1/4" acrylic I could fit into what would then be a frame - much like the old panel - but I kind of like this look...

Anyone?

[Bikermouse]

Not an expert in marine electgrical, but my gut instinct would be that the only possible problem to using a wood panel would be if it got wet and provided a potential source of path to ground for the hot leads.

Of course, any electrical installation would presumably be located in order to minimize exposure to wetness, and if it ever did get submerged, you'd presumably have bigger problems to worry about than an electrical failure.

If you predrilled the panel, stained it, then coated both sides and all edges (including the installation holes) with epoxy resin, you should end up with, essentially, a transparent epoxy panel showing a beautiful wood panel underneath. Be sure to make your installation holes very slightly oversized in order to allow for the space of the epoxy layer.

[Hirilondë]

Not an expert in marine electgrical, but my gut instinct would be that the only possible problem to using a wood panel would be if it got wet and provided a potential source of path to ground for the hot leads..

Wood is an excellent insulator. If it is getting wet then the water is the problem, not the choice of materials for the panel. I would definitely want to seal it really well though. Oak stains easily if not sealed. Looks nice.

[JohnD]

That looks really nice. The panel I just ripped out of my boat was sealed wood right up by the companionway, and the PO says he never had any problems with it.

[Quetzalsailor]

Varnish would be good enough, no need for epoxy. Plenty of older electrical equipment is/was made with wood parts.

Jeeze, you did such a neat job on everything only to have that tear-out at the upper right! That stuff drives me crazy when I do it.

Years ago, I made a Walnut instrument panel for my Volvo 164 E which came with a cheezy fake engine-turned piece of aluminum (others came with a faux-wood overlay). I varnished it and before applying the last coat of varnish I used white Letraset transfer letters for the labels. The last coat of varnish sealed the transfers in. http://www.letraset.com/products/91-Lettering/

I wonder why you bothered to rout out a recess in the panel? Lots of work. A flat overlay panel would do as well.

I made an overlay adapter for my bilge pump switch which replaced an earlier one of completely different design. I made some 3/16" thick 3-ply Mahogany plywood with Makore veneer to match the Makore wood of the rest of the area. Easy to make small pieces of plywood.

[Paulus]

Jeeze, you did such a neat job on everything only to have that tear-out at the upper right! That stuff drives me crazy when I do it.

I wonder why you bothered to rout out a recess in the panel? Lots of work. A flat overlay panel would do as well.

I knew someone would notice the little gaff... - it will be filled with putty and invisible to...... most... ;-)

As regards the recess - the panel sits right above the step into the companionway... I am hoping the recess will provide some shelter from shoes and the like...

Been working on a schematic too...

[mitiempo]

I assume the starter is wired to the common out on the main switch but not shown.
I would treat the charging differently. I don't believe that the main switch should be used to determine which batteries are being charged, only which are being used. I would direct charging to the house battery, both alternator and AC charger, and use either an ACR (automatic charge relay) or Echo Charge to take care of the start battery. No thought from a tired sailor required.

There are 3 reasons not to charge through the main switch.
If you forget to put it on "both" you won't be charging bath banks.
If you leave it on "both" they will both be drained.
If the switch is turned to "off" while the engine is running the diodes in the alternator will probably fry.

The only reason manufacturers did things this way - and some still do - is that it is the least expensive way to charge 2 battery banks. But it depends on manual operation at all times.

The panel looks great. I would also just varnish it.

[Paulus]

I assume the starter is wired to the common out on the main switch but not shown.
I would treat the charging differently. I don't believe that the main switch should be used to determine which batteries are being charged, only which are being used. I would direct charging to the house battery, both alternator and AC charger, and use either an ACR (automatic charge relay) or Echo Charge to take care of the start battery. No thought from a tired sailor required.

There are 3 reasons not to charge through the main switch.
If you forget to put it on "both" you won't be charging bath banks.
If you leave it on "both" they will both be drained.
If the switch is turned to "off" while the engine is running the diodes in the alternator will probably fry.

The only reason manufacturers did things this way - and some still do - is that it is the least expensive way to charge 2 battery banks. But it depends on manual operation at all times.

The panel looks great. I would also just varnish it.

Yes, the starter is (now) directly on the common of the selector switch - the main take-off to the panel is (now) on the starter solonoid - I will change that to the selector switch common with in-line fuse...

You are correct on the charger circuit - mine is a three circuit (able to charge three batteries simultaneously) Charles charger, two of which will be wired directly to the batteries at the selector switch (makes for easier removal/servicing of the batteries). Will keep the alternator on the selected side though, so I that I can choose which one to charge and also so that one (fuller) battery does not make the regulator scale back the charge too early.

I don't like the ACR because it still does not physically disconnect the "primary system/battery when sending a charge to the other, thus sending the "average" voltage over both to the regulator rather than the actual voltage/condition of the secondary system.

[mitiempo]

I favor the Echo Charge over the ACR. It will pass up to 15 amps to the secondary (start) battery when a charging voltage is present. The start battery is rarely down more than an AH from an engine start.

[Paulus]

I am finishing up on this project (fourth coat of varnish applied yesterday)



- question for the electrical geeks here - the switches I bought



are rated "2A - 250V; 4A - 125V" - assumably AC.

What is a safe curent they should be able to take on 12V (DC)

I know about the issue of pulling sparks with DC and that the "most serious" limiting factor is it's ability to interrupt power rather than carry current, etc. but in my humble opinion at 12V that is not really an issue.

I am planning on putting 10A fuses on the largest load (cabin lights); 5A on most other loads...

Am I missing something? Is this okay?

[mitiempo]

Fusing is for the wire size, not necessarily the load. A fuse smaller than the wire size requires is fine, but not larger. The fuse is there so the circuit is opened before the wire gets too hot.

Strange the switches do not have a DC rating. And that rating is really low as well. Last week I installed a switch that looks identical, Blue Seas 4150 and it is rated at 10 amps @250v AC, and 15 amps @ both 125 v AC and 12 V DC. And it sells for $6 or $7 I think. I use a lot of these in their different configurations, SPST, SPDT, DPDT etc.

[Paulus]

Funny thing is, half the switches (the larger diameter, top two rows) came from a West Marine - six circuit mini panel and they are rated at "125V - 5A" - not much different from the ones I bought - they had 10A fuses in the fuse holders...

I bought the additional six here:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowde ... tab=1#Tabs

[mitiempo]

They will work but I would keep it to 4 amps @ 12 volts. The Blue Seas switches are rated the same amperage at 12 volts DC and 125 volts AC. Pretty low rating but the price is low as well.

[Quetzalsailor]

Your panel is looking very good!

Yup, that's correct. An Amp is an Amp. So says the electrical engineer who owns the Chris Craft 37 in our marina. Our panel has a bunch of identical 10 and 15 amp breakers; some are used on 12v circuits and some on 110v. (I don't understand this stuff either; that's one reason I enjoyed two years in the Army in the midst of my university career.)

[Paulus]

I was directed to an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.matronics.com/aeroelectric/a ... atings.pdf

For those who are pondering the question as a result of my post, I recommend reading it.

Bottom line (for me) is that the limiting factors concering toggle switches are related to their application moreso than their load - clearly a mostly resistive load (like a stereo, or other electronic device) does not pose large(r) make or break currents, while an incandescent lamp load, solenoid, transformer, or similar loads provide for milliseconds of "short circuit" type loads that take place while the coil energizes or the lamp heats up and builds its resistance to maintain design currents.

When breaking a circuit, the collapse of a magnetic field in a coil might provide for a severe reverse "spike", ditto with breaking a running inductive circuit (electric motor).

A lot of things I didn't realize when I simply purchased the toggles, thinking I was getting a good deal.

On the boat, my loads are pretty much limited to lights, electronics and a few small motors (bilge pump) which are turned on and off by their own switches (float) - not by the panel switch.

I concur with the post above - if I rate it equal (or close) to the 125VAC rating, I should definately be good for a 12VDC application.

If this bothers me enough, I may splurge and buy a few of the Blue Seas 4150 and be done with it ;-). Although, as the article explains, the majority of the increase cost for DC rated toggles is more related to the rating than any higher quality of the switch...

Just like most other things... once you declare something suitable for "Marine use", you MUST double, or tripple, its price.

[mitiempo]

Paulus
...more related to the rating than any higher quality of the switch...

I would think that higher quality is required for a higher rating.

A cheaper low rating switch will eventually arc and either fail in the on or off position. The $7 for the Blue Seas switch is a fair price for a quality switch I think. When you hold both switches you will see the quality difference - it will be obvious. Electrical is not the place to skimp.

The varnished panel looks great.

[Paulus]

Finishing touches...

Finally wired it up...



And put the stickers on...



After wiring and stickering, I cleaned all the newly soldered connections with Electro Cleaner (spray) and then put a couple of coats of spray varnish (window frosting) over all of the back of the panel, hopefully slowing down the effects the salty environment can have on it all...



Now all I have to do is put it back where it belongs and go sailing

[Hirilondë]

Now all I have to do is..........

Famous last words ;>)

[Rich P]

Finishing touches...

Finally wired it up...





Now all I have to do is put it back where it belongs and go sailing

Looking beautiful!
But all that work and your using the hated chocolate boxes!!

[Paulus]

But all that work and your using the hated chocolate boxes!!

Are you saying this because it is close to Valentine's day?

The Admiral happens to LOVE getting chocolate..... box or bag.

[Rich P]

Oops!

My mistake, I mean Chocolate Blocks haha :D

[Bikermouse]

It looks beautiful, but are you using solid-cored wire to get that nice "Schematic" look? It's one of those things that runs a .0001% chance of causing a problem, but I've always been really leery of using solid wire instead of stranded on anything that moves more than a house. Not that the inside of your panel should move much, but it'll see vibration every time you meet a wave on a close reach.

Now I just sound critical when I know that my electrical work will never look that pretty...

:-(

[Rachel]

Ah, maybe that answers a question that I didn't quite know I had. I'm far from being an electrician, but I looked at that photo of the back of the panel and the first thing that struck me was how square all of the corners looked and that that seemed unusual. I guess because stranded wire doesn't stay square like that?

[Paulus]

Oops!

My mistake, I mean Chocolate Blocks haha :D

Actually, she likes chocolate blocks as well... - her favorite though, are Hershey Kisses.

But all kidding aside - are you referring to the European stile connector series? I am from "there" and I always prefer those over the semi open blocks, especially with marine environment and dangling wires all around. I have seen those (including on my boat) build up oxides high enough to potentially bridge connections from screw to screw... especially when used for ground terminals.

If you could explain the statement, that would help.

[Paulus]

It looks beautiful, but are you using solid-cored wire to get that nice "Schematic" look? It's one of those things that runs a .0001% chance of causing a problem, but I've always been really leery of using solid wire instead of stranded on anything that moves more than a house. Not that the inside of your panel should move much, but it'll see vibration every time you meet a wave on a close reach.

Now I just sound critical when I know that my electrical work will never look that pretty...

:-(

...and Rachel:

No, all wiring is stranded, except for the supply, which is a single #10 solid, wired to all the bases of the fuses and connected on both sides of the panel, thus avioding creating a "most remote" feed, as would be the case if it was a single, or branched design. The closed double loop allows flow through all legs to go to the area of demand, using the path of least resistance.

Sprinkler systems use this design as well - instead of the old fashioned branch designs, with a center main and branches flowing off both ways, today's systems are hydraulically calculated with a loop (allows for smaller piping) with connectors throughout, allowing flow all over, instead of through a branch system.

The black and red lines are stranded and tinned... in addition to liberately coating all of it with several layers of spray varnish, I am contemplating coating the solid feed line with liquid tape, just in case...

[Rich P]

I'm talking about the plastic blocks with the two screws that all your live feed's are going into, I had those on the previous electrical system of my boat and they melted into a glob of plastic with a short!
My understanding is that they are bad practice?

[mitiempo]

I am not a fan of the plastic wire blocks either. And I never use solid core on a boat. ABYC also calls for all stranded. In addition to the vibration issue electrons run on the surface of the strand(s) and a little corrosion will increase resistance on solid core before it will on stranded and hopefully tinned wire. Solid is also more prone to the corrosion because it is not tinned.

But then I am not a fan of solder either.

[Paulus]

Interesting - especially since most if not all smaller panels I have seen to-date, actually come from the manufacturer with a solid rod/bus connecting all the feeds... in fact I copied the method I ended up using from a six switch West Marine panel of which I also used all six of the twelve switch/fuse combo's.. Then improved on the concept, as described above, by creating a circular "loop", to avoid having a "most remote", exposing it to unnecesary voltage drop.

But to each their own - books and directions are for those that are unclear of the workings or possible hazards and consequences, but never offer all possible, equally safe and functional, means. As a Marine Engineer with 38 years experience I am quite comfortable with the way it is wired up: Solid bar for feed, with tinned stranded thereafter.

As regards the plastic wireblocks, they serve the same purpose, and pose the same "concern" as the typical blocks they sell at West, except those are black plastic and open to the top, thus posing their own unique set of concerns - in my humble opinion...

But rather than dwell on the back of the panel, here's a shot of what it looks like now - installed and functional.



Flame away.

[mitiempo]

If you look at any ABYC certified marine panel, such as Blue Seas or Marinetics, you will see no solid core wire. On the Blue Seas panels which I install and work on regularly, both AC and DC, the feed "wire" is a tin plated copper bar about 1/2" wide and 3/32" thick. All wire is tinned stranded copper.

It does look good.

[Paulus]

Been doing a lot of reading (no, I am not into football) and y'all are correct - ABYC does absolutely rule against any solid wiring, as does it object to soldered connections, for the same reason, which is that "solid" doesn't "give" and as such is subject to low frequency vibration induced cycle fatique. Soldered connections too are considered "solid" and are subject to the same concern.

Not sure if this carries through for small panel wiring though, but in general I guess they prefer things to be flexible and able to "give", hence also their recommendation to use mechanical, crimped, butted - sleeve connections to connect wiring, rather than soldering, or otherwise prevent the soldered connection from vibrating/moving, etc.. I understand the reasoning and concern...

I guess I practice this same reasoning by not mounting anything onto the diesel engine directly when I have an alternative - my oil cooler as well as oil filter are bulkhead mounted as are several sensors and other items... wiring and hose takes the brutal vibrations of a running diesel alot better than any bracket will.

Thanks for your eagle eyes and critique... at first I was a bit "brushed" by it, but it is good to know what "proper" is, even if one didn't do it that way.

[mitiempo]

No offense intended.