Ericson 27 Project

Post photos and descriptions of your ongoing projects here. No project is too big or too small.
Quetzalsailor
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Re: fuel: good call. Discuss with the techie. As an example, the kerosene 'salamanders' commonly used on job sites put out enough CO2 to retard concrete curing.

Re: to strip or not strip: depends upon your tolerance for risk and your assessment of how bad later redoing would be compared to redoing now. I've chosen variously in different conditions. If the part is small, or well-bounded, or accessible, or not covered by later assembly, the equasion tilts toward giving the questionable condition a try. If the part is huge, and accessible now but not later...
bigd14
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Thanks for all the replies. The heaters were electric, so I'm confident there were no fumes or condensation. As for the temperature, I can't be sure that the temp didn't drop below 55 in the middle of the night, but I can say that on all the days that I have arrived in the early mornings, the temp in the shelter has been much warmer than ambient and well above 55. And as long as the heaters have been on I have not noted any condensation.

As for mixing, its hard to go wrong with this stuff. There is no mixing or if you are adding the crosslinker (which you only add on the last coat), you add 8 drops per ounce of paint. So I can't say that I mixed it wrong either.

As for curing, the paint dried relatively quickly- within a few hours I was able to walk on it, touch it, etc. But it was still soft (I could dent it with a fingernail) in some areas where it was thicker.

Even yesterday evening, almost a week and a half after the paint went down, and in an area directly under the heater that has been running continuously the entire time, I was able to peel up a small strip. Even though the paint felt much harder than it had.

I also heard from someone who recommends using paper towels for the final wipedown to avoid any issues with fabric softener on rags. I bought the rags new, so I suppose that could have been a problem, but I would think it would manifest itself in a more widespread area.

So its still a mystery to me.

Right now I am leaning towards removing it all and starting over. I would like this to last at least 6-7 years before I have to go through this again. The thought of paint peeling off next summer as soon as the boat is exposed to the elements is somewhat sickening!

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by georgefmys »

Was paint uncured? or not sticking to primer? If big sections can be peeled off-that indicates really bad adhesion.[guess thats probably obvious] I would also suspect possible oil contamination of primed surfaces, or sanded primer wiped with improper solvent, or moisture was on surface when paint applied--or,and this one can really get you---rapid change in humidity in enclosure[like when you turn off heat and temp inside goes down quickly before paint is set-up. Was failure same on both vert. and flat surfaces? Suggestion-next time you paint save a little to take home and apply to a scrap of glass or plywood-then if you are wondering how it's coming on board [or want a 'control' sample], you'll have it.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

We washed entire boat with water as per System 3 recommendations. Saw no evidence of oil (e.g. water beading). The worst of the peeling took place in areas where vertical surfaces met horizontal ones and we had some paint pooling a bit. You might be on to something with rapid change in temp or humidity. The shelter got up to about 85 or close to 90 that day since the sun was shining. Then dropped to about 70 when the sun went down and we had to turn on the heaters. Probably down to about 65 that night. I wasn't monitoring humidity, but that could have changed too. Still one would think this would be a fairly standard scenario for paints of all types.

Anyway, I think I am going to go ahead and sand it all off and start over using Interlux Perfection. I will plan on painting on an overcast day to keep temps and humidity steady (shouldn't be hard here in Oregon). Although I am not sure I should keep my heaters on while there is lots of solvent floating about...

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Tim »

Given that you seem to have done exactly what you should have, as you originally said you did, I'd say you have no realistic choice but to remove and start fresh.

If the paint is so fussy that what I'd consider "normal" ambient temperature/condition changes throw its panties into a twist, then it doesn't sound like the right product to me anyway.

Just think of all the practice you've had, which will make your next attempts that much better. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by sscoll »

I'd think you're correct with humidity. You obviously were careful of contamination. The work to this point shows careful planning and prep. The reason I mentioned fuel was that your containment looks to be tight fitting and Lp or other petro based fuels can "sweat" up a space without seeming to.

That you can reach this point in your work and retrace your process with such obvious aplomb speaks well of you. My hat's off to you.

Steve
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Tim wrote:That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
Geez, I should look like a body builder by now... Maybe it is killing me!

I decided late last night that I will be stripping it all off and starting over. And I will definitely be changing my approach based on what I learned this time around, so its not all bad.
sscoll wrote:That you can reach this point in your work and retrace your process with such obvious aplomb speaks well of you.
Well, you must not have been within a mile of the boatyard when I discovered this! Just trying to maintain some decorum in public here. But thanks nonetheless.

Onwards. I figure three weeks to get back to where I was last week. Barring extreme temperatures, swine flu, or other unforeseen delays. Thanks for the advice. This forum is priceless!

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

OK, I think I have figured out what happened with the paint.

First, I had trouble with the first coat running a little bit. It collected in some of the corners a little thicker than other areas.

Second, I must not have waited quite long enough (over 16 hours later!) to recoat. the thicker areas must have retained a little moisture (this is a water based product).

So I figure I trapped some moisture under the second coat, which could not escape, and prevented adhesion to the primer. According to the S3 tech folks, the topcoat develops sheet strength before it develops adhesive strength, so once it started pulling up, it brought more with it.

First Photo- Here is what the peeled areas looked like (this peeled one week after paint was applied). Note that I left the center area bare for non-skid paint.
paint peel1.jpg
Second Photo (sorry its blurred)- Some drips that I sanded off yesterday (2 weeks after painting). Notice the lack of adhesion under them, but not the surrounding areas.
paint peel2.jpg
Third Photo- This is paint being removed 2 weeks after it was put on. This area was under the heater. It should have cured by now. But its still peeling.
paint peel3.jpg
Based on the last 2 photos, I can't trust the paint to stay on for very long. So I spent yesterday sanding it off. Only got about a third of the boat done, and that was the easy part (bow area and cabin top). In areas where it cured properly its hard. Very hard. Which is now most of the boat. I figure about 10 percent of the boat peeled, and I removed that part easily. Its the other 90% that's going to take awhile...

Dust, dust, dust. Again.
Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bcooke »

Taken from this old thread
I only started sanding on it later in the day but it appears that a good part of the high build application has failed and will have to be ground off and re-coated. Compounding matters was the fact that I had to delay sanding for four days so what did set up correctly is pretty hard now.
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bigd14
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Thanks for the old thread Britton. I do take comfort that I am not the only one who has been through this!

Spent 9 hours behind various sanding implements today. Ugh. Got most of it done, except for the lower part of the cockpit and the detail work around the companionway. The boat has the familiar spotted look again! The good news is that I have sanded some areas that should have been touched up prior to painting a bit more. So the end result should be better the second go around.

I should finish the sanding next weekend. I'm actually debating whether to have the yard spray the topcoat, since I am going to have ever more difficulty getting the temps stable enough. The yard has an indoor area they can maintain at a steady temp. And the boat is on a trailer. It would be some effort to remove the cover, but perhaps well worth it. I'll be inquiring about pricing this week and see if they even can schedule it in in. If not, I'll press ahead and hope for the best.

I'll sand it all up to 150 before re-priming. I'm going to leave the existing epoxy primer on the non-skid areas, since its rock solid. I'll prime over everything with whatever primer system I end up using..

Here are a couple photos.
Sanded back 1.jpg
Sanded back 2.jpg
Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Not much to report these days. I finished up the sanding in early November, but missed my weather window for painting, so I'll have to wait until April to do that. So I'm only behind by 6 months...

I've only been down to the boat three times since early November. Holidays, guests, wind storms, and frigid temps (for Oregon) have prevented much work. Twice I've had to repair the shelter when it was damaged by windstorms. The only day I actually got some work done I started repairs to the stern tube hole and strut hole. Oh, and I managed to remove the small cooling water thru-hull, which now I need to patch. No pictures, because I forgot my camera.

I also managed to find a used Yamaha 9.9 high thrust extra long shaft outboard and have added that to the mountain of boat stuff sitting in the garage.

Other than that, I've kind of lost steam. Hopefully I can get it moving again after the holidays. Lots to do on the mast (new spreaders), new rigging, converting the old glassed in chainplates to new external ones, etc.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Oh, by the way, I did request a quote from the local yard for painting the decks and their reply was that they couldn't do it because they are going out of business! Victims of the bad economy. I guess they had quite a few small jobs like painting hulls and decks, but no major long term boat building or refurbishment jobs, so they couldn't make it. What a bummer, a 30 year old business and all their employees suddenly gone. Definitely makes me appreciate being employed, even though I wish I could spend more time working on the boat...

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

A new year and a renewed effort! I finally got back to the boat for a good day of work today. Since the last posting I have only been to the boat once, when I received an email from a fellow yard mate that my shelter had collapsed after some heavy snowfall. I went down to the boat and it looked pretty bad- the entire middle section had collapsed onto the boat. However, when I went up and pushed about 50 gallons of water and wet snow off, the entire shelter sprang back to life! A small, but important victory.

I forgot to bring my camera so I didn't take good photos today. Too late I remembered my cell phone cam, but only got a few lousy pics.

I spent the day filling in the old raw water intake thru hull hole. It was recessed into the hull so I scraped all the sealant out, sanded it down and put in a bunch of layers of 1708. I'll add a few layers over the inside when its cured. I also continued filling in the 4x4 inch hole where I had removed the strut. I had previously put in a block of white oak and filled it up with a mix of epoxy and colloidal silica and milled fiberglass. However I didn't put enough in and there was a large void, so I repeated the process. When this is cured I will put a 3 layers of 1708 on the hull side and two inside. I also cut off the end of the plug which I had placed in the old shaft log and epoxied in place. The outside will get 3 layers of 1708 and another two on the inside. I ended up using 4 pieces of 1/2 inch fiberglass fence post to fill the shaft log.
Shaft Log Filler.jpg

I also made an unfortunate (or fortunate if I think about it) discovery. I had noticed several circular cracks in the hull paint on the starboard forward side about 2 feet below the waterline. I suspected this was a poorly done repair of an old thru-hull from the head. Sure enough someone had put some kind of putty (probably thickened epoxy) into not one, but two thru hull holes and then gelcoated over them. No fiberglass cloth. Failure waiting to happen! I'll have to dig out this junk and see if someone actually put glass on the interior (which may be why I couldn't find anything on the inside of the boat. Access is poor from inside the boat, so this will be a major exterior grinding job. Ugh. I was hoping that I was getting near to the end of major grinding, but I guess not.
Here is a photo of both thru-hull patches
Old Thru Hulls2.jpg

Here is a closer view. Note the cracks in the filler material and it separating from the edges.
Old Thru Hull 1.jpg
I also spoke to our local metalworker today about manufacturing new chainplates and spreader brackets. I have decided to move the chainplates to the outside of the boat. They are currently glassed into the interior of the boat, making inspection and replacement impossible. I'll post more about this later.

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Mystery solved. What I thought were poorly patched thru-hulls on the starboard bow appear to be the original thru-hull locations for the head, but they were never actually used. When I removed all the filler material, I could see light shining through untouched hull material from the inside. I cleaned them out and put in 6 layers of biax to fill them up. I'll sand them down and fair them to the hull next work day.
Fwd Thru-Hulls Cleaned Out.jpg
Fwd Thru-Hulls Patched.jpg
Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

I spent the day glassing all the holes in the hull.

Last week I used slow hardener and had as much of the strut gap already filled with a white oak block (and the temps were low), but it still generated a little too much heat in the middle, which blew out my plastic bag that was maintaining the shape of the hull.
Image

So I had to do a bunch of grinding.
Image

Here is the strut repair and shaft log before glassing:
Image

And after a three layers of biax, the last one covering both repairs.
Image

And two layers on the inside.
Image

Image
Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

This weekend I worked on the sliding hatch for the companionway and continued pondering the chainplate issue. I also cleaned out some core material that was exposed around the rudder shaft in the cockpit. A little water had gotten in and rotted the balsa out, but it didn't seem to extend much beyond the bolt holes. I filled it with thickened epoxy. There is a layer of 1/4 inch marine plywood that is fine above the balsa core. Just the size of the raised plate area.

Image

As an aside, I have started adding some fine chopped fiberglass into my thickened epoxy to give it more strength. I have found that the areas where I placed epoxy thickened only with colloidal silica are a bit brittle. I have noticed over the past few months some cracking noises when stepping on the foredeck where I had a lot of the thickened epoxy. I hope this will not result in any structural issues. Moot point, cause I'm not digging back into it for any reason! Oh well, a lesson learned for the next boat...

The sliding hatch has involved a lot of trial and error, mostly error. The original hatch was in poor condition and did not fit well, but I thought I could use it as a template with some modifications. I cut the runners from 1" mahogany and dadoed a slot into them. Then I traced the front profile onto my mahogany and made my measured modifications. I measured three times, but when I dry fit it, it was still too short, so I wasted a nice chunk of mahogany. Turns out my measurement was correct, except that I was measuring the wrong area. Argh. After getting smart and using some cheap pine for the complicated pattern, it took two tries to get it right. So once I purchase another chunk of mahogany I should have a good framework. I still have to scribe and construct the false rabbets that I'll install around the interior of the frame. Using the shape of these rabbets, I'll make a form to bend three layers of 6mm marine plywood over to make the top. Since the fitting of the top is going to be a little tricky, I think I'm going to make two of them so when I mess up the first one, I'll be able to quickly correct on the second... Hey isn't half of life trying to work around one's own limitations?

Second try. Note shims made of an old scraper.
Image

Image

I spent the last part of the weekend grinding down last week's hull repairs and exposing the areas around the base of the chainplates.

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by jthistle »

Hi Doug...

Great Job on the Ericson. I build a new Slider for My 1972 E35 and agree that a production run of one unit is a time consuming process of trial and error. I used a piece of lexan for the top that is recessed into the frame. I like the final product and it totally brightens up the cabin. Sunbrella covers are on the winter list. Here's a snap. Good luck with it...looks great sofar.

http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/X1_ ... directlink
http://picasaweb.google.ca/lh/photo/rzM ... directlink

Cheers
Jason
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Hirilondë »

The mock up for the slider is looking like you are headed towards a cambered hatch vs the flat ones many boats have. The curve will definitely add challenge, fit and fair, and other labor sinks to get just right. But nothing is more beautiful in my eyes than "well fitted curved wooden things" on a boat! Looking good.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Rachel »

For some unknown reason I hadn't clicked on this thread for awhile, and when I clicked today I started where I had left off, and have just spent the last ten minutes learning of your paint failure and subsequent removal. Argh! But reading through it all at once now, wow, you're making great progress!

Interesting about those two head through-hull recesses. That would have scared me at first too.

Rachel
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Thanks Jason, I thought about Lexan, but decided against it because I needed something strong enough to stand on and Lexan that thick would have been difficult to form (I hear you need a big oven!). I looked at a few other of your boat restoration photos- looks like you have had a similar experience! Nice job.

Hi Dave. I agree that nicely curved wood looks great on boats. But I also want this to be good at shedding rain here in the wet Pacific Northwest. There is not a lot of exterior wood on my boat, and this will be the major centerpiece, so I'm trying to take the time to get it right. By the way, your window frames are amazing!

Rachel, thanks for the encouragement. Although I have been trying to forget about the whole paint issue! Soon enough I will have to revisit it.

After a ski break to Utah last weekend I'm starting back up on the hatch.

So here is the latest version- Hatch 2.0. I decided to redo the side rails, because I didn't like how the screws attaching them to the fore and aft arched pieces allowed too much movement. Unfortunately, I made this decision after I had already cut the second round of fore and aft frames to size. I didn't want to buy any more mahogany, so I came up with a free-floating tenon made of some left over white oak.

I need to dry fit this to the boat once more to make sure my dadoes are deep enough (I shortened them up a little bit to eliminate some slop from the earlier version). Then I can move forward with laminating the marine ply for the top portion.

Unfortunately, the "apprentice" in the photo tends to cause more trouble than help...
Image

Image


Free floating tenon will be trimmed flush once its glued up.
Image

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

I started out the day by fairing the hull patches. I didn't get any photos of them.

I then dry fit the hatch. It fits perfectly so now I can move on to the next step.
Image

I acquired a Yamaha outboard motor a couple months ago. Hi thrust extra long shaft. So today I test fit it to make sure it would fit in the opening I made in the transom last summer. It fit perfectly. Instant propulsion! I'm pretty pleased with how deep the prop will be.
Image

It takes up a lot less cockpit space than I thought it would, both up or down.
Image
Image

I also spent some time grinding and sanding off the paint and dirt from around the inside of the transom. I am going to add a few layers of 1708 in here to reinforce the transom/hull area to provide better support for the motor. The transom hardly moves (in fact its really quite solid) when I flex the motor, but I want this to be bomb proof to handle any extreme loads from the motor when sailing in waves. The holes are for the single cockpit drain. Unfortunately, I can only reach much of this area with one hand while lying on my side, so sanding was a real pain!
Image

When I was moving around in the lazarette, I grabbed the rudder tube and found that it flexed a little more than I would wish. Probably not a big deal, with the rudder also being supported at the cockpit sole, but again, while I'm in there, I may as well beef it up a little. So I sanded this area too. Thanks to the flash, it looks like I have a little more sanding to do.
Image

Finally at the end of the day, I removed some of the teak trim around the companionway. I had heard from other Ericson owners that there is a gap in there that can allow water ingress. So I will be filling this area with thickened epoxy soon.
Image



Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Triton106 »

Doug,

Very nice work on your E27. There are three E27's within three boat lengths of my Triton 106's berth at our marina and more on other docks. I think they are just beautiful.

I don't know if you already thought of this but you can strengthen your transom by connecting the single drain under your outboard to the outlet hole in the hull with a G10 tube of the appropriate size. It kills two birds with one G10 tube. Just some food for thoughts. Keep the pictures coming.

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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Chris Campbell »

Great work indeed, Doug - keep it up, and thanks as usual for your continued sharing.

I'm embarassed to say that my own boat work has come to a grinding halt due to excess work in my day job - I do hope to get back to it soon enough to splash this summer, but it's getting less likely every day. It looks to me like you're well on your way for that, which is fantastic!

I'm not sure I agree with Ray's advice from the previous post. Although I have seen rigid tubes used as cockpit drains, and even sink drains, which haven't failed - they always make me nervous. If you want to brace cockpit bottom to hull you can do it with a brace or a small bulkhead, but to make the brace something which will sink the boat if it fails feels like toying with safety to me. Just my two cents, of course.

Once again, congratulations and keep up the good work!
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Thanks for the tip Ray. I would also be a bit concerned about the stresses there, but I could probably reinforce the heck out of it with an oversized tube or lots of wrapping on the outside. The current setup is a fiberglass tube at the bottom and a thru hull at the cockpit connected by a short piece of hose. At any rate the transom is stiff enough as is, I just wanted a little extra in there.

Chris sorry to hear about your delays. I would count myself lucky to have the boat in the water by summer, given my current 6 hours a week of time actually spent at the boat (a little more time available at the shop in my basement). I had some extra motivation to get it done yesterday with sunny skies, temp around 65 and a perfect east wind at about 12-15!

I spent yesterday getting out a tricky thru-hull, doing a bit of glassing, and sanding some of the fairing compound.

I have tried various weapons over the past few months to get the sink thru-hull out all to no avail. It was installed with a crusty plywood backer, but someone used a nasty bedding compound so it was in there to stay. During yesterdays particularly vigorous session I noticed the hull flexing and decided that I would just cut the danged thing out before I caused alot of damage. By then I had bashed the threads in anyways so the thru-hull was unsalvageable.
Image

I also glassed two layers of scrap biax to the transom to reinforce the area underneath the motor cutout. Likely unnecessary, but I like solid things. I'll cut the cockpit drain hole out later. This was lots of fun because I can only reach this area with one hand. I spent quite awhile afterwards cleaning epoxy from various surfaces, clothing, and skin. I have no hair left on a large portion of my right arm!
Image

And I tried to reinforce the rudder tube. We'll see how well this worked. Its extraordinarily hard to get biax to lay where you want it to at the bottom of a tube like this and get all the airbubbles out. I'm sure I missed some, but hopefully it will have provided an extra margin of reinforcement.
Image
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Robert The Gray »

I dig the incidental full body self portrait. Real faces in the boat. Document the life that is always passing.
By the way awesome hatch mojo dude. Add small fixed skylight, 4"/7".
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Triton106 »

Rob - we missed you at Ben Wells' circumnavigation slide show today. I met Michael Ruiz there. Looks like your Whisper is in good hands.

Chris wrote -
I'm not sure I agree with Ray's advice from the previous post. Although I have seen rigid tubes used as cockpit drains, and even sink drains, which haven't failed - they always make me nervous. If you want to brace cockpit bottom to hull you can do it with a brace or a small bulkhead, but to make the brace something which will sink the boat if it fails feels like toying with safety to me. Just my two cents, of course.
Chris - I normally would not use rigid tubes as cockpit drains. I think the situation here is a little different. Firstly, the space between the lower cockpit drain and the the hull is very small. It will be hard to put in a proper seacock and drain scupper and have room left for drain hose to connect between the two. Secondly, I think G10 tubes, especially large diameter G10 tubes are very strong. If they are properly epoxied in place and reinforced with several layers of 1708 they are indestructible. The key is reinforcement with fiberglass around the G10 tube. I got that idea from Tim's work on Circe's rudder tube. Thirdly, that area in Ericson 27 is already very strong. The G10 tube will not be taking on that much stress.

Doug wrote -
I would also be a bit concerned about the stresses there, but I could probably reinforce the heck out of it with an oversized tube or lots of wrapping on the outside. The current setup is a fiberglass tube at the bottom and a thru hull at the cockpit connected by a short piece of hose. At any rate the transom is stiff enough as is, I just wanted a little extra in there.
Doug - I completely agree. The key is reinforcement. Oversized tube also has the added benefit of increased drain rate in addition to being stronger. I would put in at least a two inch G10 tube. Keep up the great work.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Heh, I didn't even realize you could see my reflection in there. Thanks Robert for the compliment on the hatch!

Hmm, I'll have to think about a solid tube. This would involve alot more glass work and I will have to check on the size of the cockpit drain opening to see if there is enough room. Not sure I want to be losing things through a massive opening either.... But it would be a good permanent solution.

Spent more time this last week working on the hatch.

I glued up the frame that I had dry fit a few weeks ago. I also made a strongback frame to lay the plywood sheets over as I glued them up (this photo is after I removed the finished assembly).

Image

I then glued up three 1/4 inch sheets of marine grade plywood. I screwed the ends down and installed the other side of the template material as cauls, weighted it down with a bunch of stuff and used all my clamps in any configuration I could imagine. The old adage that you can never have enough clamps definitely applied here!

Image

Next day I cut the now cured section out. It sprang back a little bit which lead me to believe that I should have used 1/8 inch plywood instead of 1/4 inch. Oh well. Image

I spent awhile trimming it on the table saw. This was quite interesting getting the side angles right. In the end there will be a little gap, but I will fill it with thickened epoxy and it will just be the way it is. Its not worth doing it over to try to get a tight edge. Then I epoxied everything in place and filleted the bottom to hold it good and tight. By the way there are no mechanical fasteners in the hatch. Hopefully my epoxy will hold together!

Image

Since the top was a little springy, the arch that I spent so much time getting right is going to be a little flatter. I will trim the frame down to match the top and it will still look fine. I have spent way more time than anticipated on this project and need to move on with other things, so a little adaptive management is in order here.
Image

I also spent some time sanding down the rudder and found a few interesting items. More on that when I can get some photos.

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Hirilondë »

bigd14 wrote: I have spent way more time than anticipated on this project and need to move on with other things, so a little adaptive management is in order here.
No way! That should never happen to a boat project. ;>)
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Quetzalsailor »

More time??? Ha!

The only way, besides making a bunch and learning, or maybe making up some narrow test strips, is to try to guess how much to over-bend a lamination.

I think that I'd have dowelled the corners of the frame, rather than splining into so much adjacent end grain and with the spline in the weak direction.

I have essentially the same joint to do between the two halves of a vee'd coaming. The original joint was simply an Ash back-up block and was ugly. Various alternatives have come to mind. One is to internally spline the corner with epoxy-fiberglass - talk about more time!
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Yes, it was a spur of the moment decision to use the floating spline, and in hindsight I would have done it differently had I considered it more carefully. I am a little concerned about the ultimate strength of the joint. I may end up just countersinking a big screw through it now that its aligned and secured, and throwing a plug in it. I think this would probably give me more peace of mind.

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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Hatch is FINALLY almost ready for finishing! Unfortunately, I made a horrible amateur mistake that almost caused me to trash the whole thing. One of many in this whole endeavor.

The hatch top radius was a little lower than the frame, so when I glued it together I needed to trim about 1/4 inch off. I set up my trusty router table and started off. The first two sides went off clean as a whistle. But in the middle of the third side, the bearing decided to seize. It burned a small hole in the top skin of the plywood. But that wasn't the mistake...

No, the mistake came when I tried to sand the remaining portions off. I wasn't feeling well that night, which was my first mistake (well, working while not feeling well was the mistake), and when sanding the last corner I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been, and sanded a big hole in the top skin of plywood. Arrgh! So basically I ruined the entire assembly. Monumental stupidity!

Here is a photo showing the damage.
Image

I did add 4 large screws in each corner to reinforce the entire assembly.
Image

Here is the entire thing with the first coat of epoxy.
Image

And the offending blotch. I put a little wood filler over it to try and hide it. Short of staining it black or painting it, it is always going to show.
Image

After thinking about it for a few days, I figured that there is really no sense in me spending another month and $$ doing this project over, so I will enjoy this little reminder of a stupid error for as long as the hatch lasts. I have enough other things to do and $$ to spend!

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Tim »

Too bad! Let me guess: that's at one of the cockpit-facing corners where you're sure to see it the most. I think you are right to live with it rather than rebuild the whole hatch. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

That's always the risk using plywood in flush applications like that; sanding through the thin veneers is very common. I've done it, and now do my best to avoid using plywood in that sort of application. I've also had water get in that flush seam and cause issues with the veneer (which eventually caused me to paint the top of a sea hood I made in similar fashion).

I don't think that hatch would look bad at all if you painted the field, if you decide you can't live with the flaw. It might even set off the solid trim better.

Carry on to live another day.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Capn_Tom »

On my boat I call such issues "character"
The board does not cut itself short!
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I've done it, too. (Sanded through). And it's much easier to do these days since face veneers of plywood are so much thinner. If you are feeling really nervy you can rout a sufficient area to get far enough away to get to some thicker veneer, and drop in a patch of matching veneer.

These are pics of a Flying Dutchman bottom that I reveneered with 1/16" mahogany. You can imagine how displeased I was to sand through an ill-laminated spot. The lozenge-shaped patch shows, but not so badly..
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by earlylight »

I had a similar experience once with a teak veneer chart table on a previous boat. Using a chisel blade in my X-acto kit, I cut out an area in all 4 corners of the chart table and then inlaid these areas with a contrasting lighter solid wood (holly). The effect was quite striking. Also there are pre-made inlays available online in various designs and woods. This is just another option you may wish to consider.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Rachel »

I like Dick's idea of setting off the corners with inlay - that could be really neat.

That said, I think I would actually prefer the look of a painted field with bright trim, as Tim mentioned. Even if it's perfect, I don't really like the look of the plywood against the "real" wood. Totally subjective, of course.

Either way, nice job. I always learn things when I'm following along :)
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Thanks for the advice and supportive comments!

Thats a great idea to put some contrasting corners in. I think I will do that. Although then I run the risk of messing some other aspect of it up! Luckily the damage is on the front end away from the cockpit, but its still painfully visible.

I originally thought about trying to cooper up a bunch of hardwood to fit the curves, but I decided that it was well above my woodworking pay grade and I don't mind the contrasting plywood look. I made sure that I saturated the edges of the plywood so if any water finds its way in there it shouldn't delaminate.

It also occurred to me that I could put a layer of very light fiberglass cloth over the top (like my sea kayak). If I use the lightest cloth available and a very thin epoxy, it should virtually disappear. This would probably stabilize the whole thing such that no water would ever migrate into the seams. However, it would be tough to get it to seat correctly around the tight radiuses. I'll have to ponder this awhile and maybe do a test run on some scraps.

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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Hirilondë »

Cut a couple feet of mahogany stock into a right triangle. Cut some very thin wafers across the grain and inlay them into the corners in the top surface. Take longer sections and glue them into the corners on the inside like a reinforcement cleat for your 4 corner joints which will now look like they pass through the corners of the plywood as if they were assembled first. Then tell everyone this was your original design. We won't tell anyone ;>)
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Rachel »

Hirilondë wrote: We won't tell anyone ;>)
Except there will be all those people who see it and want to know how to replicate it. They'll be flocking here in droves and the secret will be out ;) Cool idea!
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Alright, I'm using Dave's excellent idea, except for the bottom portion, which would interfere with the hatch operation. I chiseled out two triangles on the bow end and will cut some mahogany to fit tomorrow. I will not be doing the aft portion. The top sheet of the plywood is splintering a tiny bit, which will make a somewhat ragged edge, but I don't care; it will be better than the eyesore that was there before. Bunch of epoxy and if I do a good enough varnish job it will be too dazzling for anyone to notice!

Great ideas, everyone.

Doug

Oh yeah, and the irony of my recent status as "Almost A Finish Carpenter" hasn't escaped me either (emphasis on the Almost)!
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Doug,
Taking note of your comment that the plywood veneer chips a bit as you chisel. Do it over again, a little farther up the hatch. This time, score the plywood with a new blade in your cheepie Stanley knife against a flexible edge, like a thin steel ruler. Score it gently but deeply, multiple strokes (in the same place). This will calm down that unwelcome tendency in plywood veneers. Practice on a scrap to prove the method and the depth of cut. Also see to the knife cut being perpendicular to the face, but you can fit the 'bracket' readily enough. Finish the 'bracket' down to 'in plane' using anything dainty and handy, like a really sharp block plane or new file. Protect the adjacent veneer with tape until you're close to perfect. You're not going to want to remove any of the plywood veneer. I have been known to glue chips back in, but it's a lousy business and time consuming.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Quetzal/Doug I took your advice and cut a neat line to eliminate the ragged edge. Worked great. I cut some mahogany triangles to fit and glued them in with some epoxy thickened slightly with wood flour. It should look pretty good! Assuming that is that I don't burn through again when sanding them flush. I'll sand them tomorrow and see how it looks. Two coats of epoxy and I'll be back on track with only 4-5 days missed.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Tim »

Be careful sanding those flush! That's always the trick.

But the accents will look good when complete.
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Marshall Wright »

Rather than sanding the accents smooth, how about leaving them proud and adding a very small chamfer? Or a roundover, but I don't think that would look as nice.

Did something similiar to some kitchen cabinets Iseveral years ago and looked great. Also, would give something to slightly grab hold of when pushing/pushing hatch?

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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Marshall Wright »

Bigd14,

Just wondering. How did you cut that clean line without taking everything apart. An exacto and/or chisel? Fein?

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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Hi Marshall. I used a utility knife to score the plywood and dug it out with a small chisel. I sanded the wood flush before I saw your post about leaving it raised a bit. That would have been interesting.

Anyway, its sanded flush and I did a final test fit on the boat today. Now I can finish it with varnish.
Image
Image
Image

I also removed some companionway trim and filled the gap between the liner and the deck with thickened epoxy. This should help keep water out of the interior.
Image
Image
Image

At the end of the day I removed the top portion of the rudder packing seal. Its kind of a strange deal, tensioned by 4 screws that thread somewhat loosely into the tube portion of the seal. I could loosen them by hand and there does not appear to be any method of keeping them from coming unscrewed from vibrations and loosing the compression on the packing. I will probably use some kind of loctite to make them hold position a little better. I could also get longer screws and use a lock nut.
Image
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

I installed the cockpit drain today. I took Ray's advice and glassed a piece of G10 fiberglass tube between the cockpit floor and the hull. I used 1.5" ID tube (1 7/8 OD), because that was the size of the existing hole in the cockpit. I needed about 8 inches and I had to buy 39 inches worth ($$) from McMaster Carr. If anyone wants to buy some tubing, let me know!

I had to redrill the hull side because it was too small. Luckily I had glassed over the hole on the inside which gave the pilot drill bit something to grab. The McMaster-Carr holesaw took all of about 10 seconds to blast through the hull. Nice tool.

I mixed up some thickened epoxy and tried to fillet around the tube (remember I can only reach this area with one hand). It was pretty ugly, so when it started to firm up I put a bunch of layers of fiberglass tape around it so I could mold it a little bit. I'll go back in a few days and run a bunch of 1708 around the whole thing and it should be bombproof. As Ray mentioned, there is not much room for movement or flex in this area, so I am not too concerned about the tube working free.

Here are some photos:

Cockpit aft. I figure I don't need too much drainage capacity since any major fillings will go over the outboard cutout pretty quickly. Hopefully it won't drown the motor on the way in or out...
Image

Drilling the hull side to match the cockpit drain. I had to file a bunch more away to get good fit.
Image

The fiberglass tube cut a little proud. I will sand it flush when its cured.
Image

The messy fillet job.
Image

All wrapped up. Yes, there is a void on the left top side of the tube. Nothing I could do to work it out, so it stays. Maybe I'll drill a small hole and inject epoxy later when I'm putting the biax in. Or not.
Image

In other news, over the past couple weeks I only spent a little time at the boat. Skiing and family illnesses cut short my time. I did manage to remove the trim from around the front hatch. I also laid out the trim pieces from the front hatch and companionway on a piece of teak and will cut them out and shape them over the next few weeks. And I put the fourth coat of varnish on the companionway hatch today. I also made templates for backing plates for most of the hardware (some still to be determined) and will start cutting those out and installing.

I am also in touch with a rigger in Seattle who I hope will be down in the next few weeks to inspect the mast and rigging, and provide some advice on the glassed-in chainplates. Replacing the chainplates will be the last major bit of glasswork on the boat, and then I can think about painting again...

Doug
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Triton106 »

Doug, very nice job on the drain tube! Here is an excerpt from Allan Vaitses' "The Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual" on how to repair/strengthen the rudder tube. It's similar to what you are doing with the drain tube.

Image
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by bigd14 »

Not much work being done on the boat these days. Life and work seems to get in the way a lot. But my daughter and I spent a few hours down at the boat completing the drain tube installation. I sanded down the top and bottom of the tube flush with the hull and cockpit. I discovered several voids in the faired area, so I drilled a few holes and shot some thickened epoxy in. I don't want any areas where water can collect and freeze. I also shot some thickened epoxy around the gaps between hull and tube. Then glassed it over with biax. This was even more difficult and messy one-handed than the first go around.

Here's a couple photos

Toxic Pipe... The invoice from McMaster Carr said the tube contained some kind of toxic product known in California to cause cancer.
It sure looked like it had a radioactive glow to it! Note drill-hole in top where I injected epoxy.
Image


Image
Image

I also got the right sized thru-hull and adaptor plate (after a mis-measurement and receiving the wrong size), so I measured to see how much of the thru-hull I'll have to cut off. I'll be using two 1/2 thick pads of G10. I'm going to install the adaptor using bolts tapped into the pads, and I want to tap them pretty deep. Sorry for the bad photo.
Image
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Re: Ericson 27 Project

Post by Triton106 »

Toxic Pipe... The invoice from McMaster Carr said the tube contained some kind of toxic product known in California to cause cancer.
It sure looked like it had a radioactive glow to it! Note drill-hole in top where I injected epoxy.
Doug, you cannot walk more than 10 steps in Calfornia without seeing a sign that says such and such substance is known in California to cause cancer. I have posters in my garage that says that although I have not clue what they are talking about. I also don't know why it is only known in California to cause cancer and the other states don't know it. Maybe the Californians are smarter? ;-)
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