The Kaholee Project

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:18 pm

Not that I want you to be a guinea pig (and of course you're not, as these engines have been around a while), but I've been hoping that someone on the forum would replace an Atomic 4 with one of these Beta engines, because I'd like to see/hear about the process from someone I "know."

I like that they've been designed with maintenance in a tight area taken into account; also they're supposed to "drop in" to the space formerly taken by an Atomic 4. Neither of those alone would be a reason to buy an engine, of course, but if it's as good as a Yanmar, and has these features....

Also, wonder if parts would be easier/cheaper to get down the road, since they aren't (?) as proprietary and are based on a Kubota block.

Kaholee looks fantastic, Allen! No wonder you're antsy to see her.

Rachel

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:37 pm

One question I've never gotten around to asking about the Beta "fits A4 engine mounts" deal is whether or not this makes any accommodation for vibration damping.

Does the engine come with soft mounts that will anchor to the unmodified A4 engine bed, or will it need to be trimmed down a bit?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:47 am

The only thing "drop-in A4 replacement" means is that the engine comes with mounting centers that match the narrow 11.5" A4 mounting centers. The offset to the center of the coupling should not require a modification of the existing foundations. The actual mounting flanges on a diesel, or other engine that incorporates flexible mounts by design, are located higher on the engine, so that the base of the flex mounts approximates the flat base of the old A4 mounting flange.

That said, there's nothing "drop in" about a diesel repower, ever. But the ability to reuse existing foundations, assuming they are sound, properly placed, and in good condition, is an attractive time-saver. Kaholee's fiberglass A4 foundation is in very good condition. Nothing else will remain, or be reused, from the old engine's installation, however.

Over the next few weeks, when I have time, I plan to build a template representing the Beta, and at that time it will answer the remaining questions about how the Beta will fit in the existing space.

I've measured up the existing compartment and existing foundations to determine that the engine will fit without a need for critical modifications.

Post by **Tim** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:49 am

By the way, don't bate your breath too much about this diesel installation. For a variety of scheduling reasons, it won't actually happen till next winter. Of course you'll read all about it when it does happen.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:07 am

aw, maaaaaaaaaaaaaan!

sigh. fine. I shall un-bate my breath.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:06 pm

I was reading todays post on Kaholee updates. It occurred to me, is there a place for one of those laser pointers to assist in lining up the shaft on a mock up of the engine. If you have holes like the one shown below both front and back of the engine mock up then shooting a laser through both holes and onto a disc on the end of the propshaft hole should make it childs play.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:27 am

Something like that might work, assuming the accuracy of the device is within acceptable tolerances, but the tangible, visual, and accurate reference of a physical string is hard to beat.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:07 am

If anyone is interested, we might be able to get an additional discount for two or more engines. PM me if you are interested.

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:15 am

Tim, regarding your galley updates - I think the sink in the longitudinal position works well (long axis running across the beam). It seems you have sufficient depth for it. Regarding the faucet - is there a chance you can mount htis on the bulkhead and swing it flush to the bulkhead when not required ? - maybe add a cutting board or something to now go over the top of the flush sink to provide counter top surface - this could be free roaming or possibly swing down as space permits. Of course I don't know what is going behind that bulkehead that may prevent plumbing from being run....

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:57 pm

I'll second the recommendation for a bulkhead-mounted faucet. After adding a larger sink to the W-32, there wasn't room left for a faucet on the countertop, so we mounted it to the bulkhead behind the sink.

We used bronze piping (mostly behind the bulkhead) leading up to the faucet, then fit one of the Fynspray swiveling faucets to the end of it. The threads were not quite the right match (seemed impossible to find, but OTOH we were not in the McMaster-Carr/Internet world at the time), but some pipe-tape and careful threading worked fine. It never leaked in years of daily use, and it was fantastic not to have to constantly wipe around the faucet base on the countertop. We also considered just making a nice loop of copper pipe, but in the end decided we wanted the "swivelability" of the Fynspray.

I don't have a great photo of it, but this does show it a bit:

Here's a better photo of the general area. There were originally two tiny-ish sinks like the one on the right - too small for everyday use and for at sea. We moved one of the tiny sinks outboard and hooked it up to the drain solely as an "enclosed drainer" for clean dishes, and replaced the main one with a ~13" x 7" x 9" deep unit that is available at West Marine (and other places).

In this case the boat sinks were already drained above the waterline by manual bilge pump (original owner didn't like through-hulls), so we weren't concerned that the new sink would be below the waterline. The manual pump is in the locker with the stained-glass door.

It was nice to have such a deep sink! There could be a few dishes sitting in the bottom of it, "waiting," yet you could still use the upper part as a normal sink. The drainer and faucet arrangements worked well too. I figured that when you're living aboard you use it so many times a day that it's worth fussing with it to get it right, even though it was a pain to do while living aboard. What a mess!

Following photo shows it mid-project of re-making the counter (before the faucet was in):

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:43 pm

Tim, where did you get the sink from? I'm trying to source one myself at a reasonable price. I can't believe how expensive they are!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:48 pm

John, I got the sink off of eBay.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:50 pm

Thanks.. I hope you got it for a better price than I'm seeing in the marine stores. ;-)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:48 pm

The sink I referenced in a post yesterday came from West Marine, but I remember later seeing it through a "regular," non-marine supplier for a bit less. Even so it wasn't too outrageous, at something like ~$200. Not super-high quality, but serviceable.

I don't see the sink I used now on West's website (but then I don't usually have good luck searching their site without their item number), but I believe it is in their catalog still. It's approximately 13" x 17" x 9" deep (OD of flange).

You may already have tried this, but if you look for "bar sinks" you'll find smaller sinks and oftentimes ones without the big apron for the faucet holes.

I'd love one of the Scandvik sinks with the built-in drainboard, but Gaaaah, the price!

I was told once that a quick measure of the quality of a stainless sink is to look at the corner radii. It's more difficult to make sharper corners, so the sinks that have them are generally higher quality.

Rachel

jpmathieu · Post by **jpmathieu** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:11 am

I just replaced the sink in my boat last year, After I removed the sink I bought 10 years ago (I think I paid about $90 dollars for it), two of the four mounting studs broke while trying to remove it. I decided that we are all being taken for a ride with these sinks. I went to the good old Home Depot and bought a small ss bar sink with two holes. I mounted the pump faucet in one hole and a soap dispenser in the other. The total cost was about $32 dollars. Now i have a spot to place a sponge.

I will try to find a picture of it.

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:41 am

jpmathieu wrote:I decided that we are all being taken for a ride with these sinks. I went to the good old Home Depot and bought a small ss bar sink with two holes.

I've often thought that myself. Plus, where is it written that you MUST have a SS sink on your boat? Why not solid surface? Why not even enamled cast iron? I think if you did a good job of sealing the exposed cast iron with epoxy/epoxy paint then bedded the tailpiece properly, even that would work.

Heavy though!

But there are tons of options if you look in the home center rather than the West catalog.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:26 am

Without hesitation, if I ever do a new galley, it'll be corian with integral sink.

Having said that....
Apart from the mounting clips, which really only need last long enough for the sealant to cure, what can be done to "marinize" a stamped-stainless-sheet part?
Rachel is right, the tighter corners (which require heavier-gauge sheet) are better because they leave more flat area in the bottom.

Pay attention to the basket strainer and the tailpiece, though!

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:47 am

Figment wrote:Pay attention to the basket strainer and the tailpiece, though!

In any sink installation!

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:17 pm

I agree: stainless sinks are stainless sinks. Of course, there is a wide range of quality within any line of sinks, wherever you find them. Always expect to pay more for a heavier-gauge sink. Sometimes, the thin, unlined ones are all you need. Sometimes not. Choose based on more than price, in any case.

The sink I have in Glissando came from a plumbing supply store. My search was complicated because I needed a sink with identical flange dimensions to one that I was replacing, and this limited the choices. (I now wish I'd kept my old, deep sink, which I replaced at the time because the bottom of the sink was below the waterline. Even the new sink didn't fully solve this problem, so I eventually went to a sump chamber to pump the sink overboard, rather than direct drain.)

Since the time when I took this photo, I have moved the faucets into the holes in the sink flange, as in the location shown they didn't overhang enough to really use.

Figment wrote:Pay attention to the basket strainer and the tailpiece, though!

If your sink drains directly overboard, this is absolutely critical. Most drain fittings aren't designed with the rigors of salt water in mind. But even if you go to a sump, you don't want cheesy fittings that'll rust out. Mine is just plastic, which is OK but not great. But it only drains to a sump chamber, not overboard, so at least there's no direct connection there.

Looking over this now, I think it's almost time for a redo. I'd love to have my deep sink back again.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:47 pm

Camera in one hand, drill in the other... tell us Tim, how do you do all this and hold your beer at the same time? ;-)

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:49 pm

I went to the good old Home Depot and bought a small ss bar sink with two holes. I mounted the pump faucet in one hole and a soap dispenser in the other. The total cost was about $32 dollars.

This sounds more like it! I hope I can find one that meets my space requirements.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:08 pm

Check the depth. A lot of bar sinks are quite shallow. Deep ones are available for a reasonable price, but sometimes you have to do some looking.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:44 pm

And now Allen can safely flush live grenades down the head!

Post by **Tim** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:31 am

A30_John wrote:Camera in one hand, drill in the other... tell us Tim, how do you do all this and hold your beer at the same time? ;-)

Post by **Tim** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:32 am

Figment wrote:And now Allen can safely flush live grenades down the head!

That was one of the important project specifications, after all.

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:43 pm

Tim wrote:
A30_John wrote:Camera in one hand, drill in the other... tell us Tim, how do you do all this and hold your beer at the same time? ;-)

That hat brings back a funny memory. My Dad had to bring a gag gift to a fishing derby he was in. This was probably 25 years ago. He saw one of those hats, and decided it was the perfect booby prize for the derby. So he built one out of an old hard hat, some gimballed drink holders, tubing and a Y, put stickers, etc. all over it.

He never tested it. The guy who one the prize was estatic - a real beer drinker. He loaded it up with a couple of cold ones, and gave it a try.

My Dad never thought of putting one of those clamp style valves on it, so once the siphon from the 2 cans started, there was no turning back. 2 beer straight down the throat it about 4 seconds.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:37 pm

Tim wrote:
Figment wrote:And now Allen can safely flush live grenades down the head!
That was one of the important project specifications, after all.

Yes, it saves a lot of time when you want fish for dinner. :)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:18 pm

Deadlight frames. evil.

so
much
mess.

so
much
tape.

soft
little
screws.

involuntary reflexive TWITCH!

ok. Breathing. ok I'm better now.
They're just photos on a computer screen. They can't hurt me.
Off to find my happy place.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:30 pm

I really wonder if those deadlight frames are really worth it. How about an oversized piece of lexan and just paint the edges of the lexan to look like a frame. Then just through bolt the lexan to the cabin sides.

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:35 pm

Oh you guys are just being big babies. There was no cursing or swearing or yelling at all. Everything was all big smiles all the way through.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:05 am

bcooke wrote:I really wonder if those deadlight frames are really worth it. How about an oversized piece of lexan and just paint the edges of the lexan to look like a frame. Then just through bolt the lexan to the cabin sides.

-Britton

That is how I did my fixed ports. I didn't paint though. After cutting the polycarbonate to size I rounded over the corner with a router. I do however want to add interior trims made out of mahogany at some point. But alas, that project hasn't made the top of the list yet.

It can make for a great look if you mask off to expose the overlap portion of the piece on the inside and spray it black before installing.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:58 am

bcooke wrote:I really wonder if those deadlight frames are really worth it.

The aluminum ones? No.

The bronze ones? Yes. Barely. Note that I only say this after more than 24 hours has elapsed since finishing the installation. All pain fades with time.

bcooke wrote:How about an oversized piece of lexan and just paint the edges of the lexan to look like a frame.

Assuming you like that look, then that's highly preferable to fussing with junky aluminum frames. The West Coast Tritons, of course, use this very technique, with externally-mounted Lexan. It's a very different look. But it's stronger, easier, and more effective than the picky frames.

The biggest problem (if it is one) is that your ports would be visually much larger than the original look. You'd need perhaps an inch of overlap all the way around the opening.

There's nothing stopping one from making something like wooden frames, too, either to cover the edges of Lexan or to incorporate the Lexan in a similar (yet improved) manner to the original design. Again, keeping the overall size from growing is important aesthetically, I think. To do this, and keep the proportions similar to original, you'd actually have to shrink the openings.

Throughbolting the original frames would also make the job easier, and ultimately stronger and more effective. The main challenge of the original design is those ridiculously shallow blind screw holes. If throughbolting, you'd just have to live with some finish nuts of some sort on the inside. (Or outside, I suppose.)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:58 am

Back when I owned #94 (WC) she had the externally mounted ports. I didn't really like the look, and the window openings were not exactly lined up. The after port opening was visibly off line with the forward one, so you had to either live with it and have an equal overlap on both windows, or the after window had a much different and visible overlap on one edge. The were also not quite level, which added to the different overlap effect. Some kind of boarder would have covered this, but it would have had to be wider than necessary to compensate.

Wooden frames would seem to me to have a problem over time with shrinkage, which would result in leaks, but aesthetically, they would be very pleasing.

All in all, the bronze ones look great, IMHO. I tried putting them back in for the trip to Maine, but was concerned I'd damage them after several attempts, so I opted for duct tape and plastic. Duct tape, don't leave home without it! ;)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:16 pm

What the heck is that?

jpmathieu · Post by **jpmathieu** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:55 pm

What the heck is that?

I noticed that also, Tim used a lot of care in leaving it in place.
What is that, Tim, Allen???

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:58 pm

I know :-)

Mark.Wilme · Post by **Mark.Wilme** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:07 pm

Same as in this picture ? It's a thru hull. Seems high up for a drain ...

Post by **Tim** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:01 am

It's an abandoned through hull (formerly a sink drain). Since it exits above the waterline, in the midst of topside paint that is in good condition and not being renewed at this time, we elected to leave it in place rather than try and patch it.

I removed the old ball valve and installed a bronze cap.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:16 pm

I made the down payment on my 20HP Beta Marine engine today. Joe is willing to offer us a group discount, so if anyone is interested, here's your chance to get a new engine for a bit less.

TERMS for group discount ?

A deeper discount will be applied to any additional engine orders placed before 5/1/07. Any additional engine orders will require 20% down, with 2 months to pay the balance, at zero percent interest. Any balance due after 2 months will be subject to a late fee. The additional engine orders are to be paid in full within 6 months of the down payment. Cancelled orders will incur a 15% restocking fee. The engines will be shipped when paid for in full.

BZ602, 16hp engine , with all standard equipment $6498

70 amp alternator option for above engine 521

BD722, 20hp engine, with all standard equipment 6962

70 amp alternator option for above engine 326

C panel 347

C panel recessed mount 49

Atomic 4 mounts no charge

Solid coupler to fit your prop shaft no charge
[ please indicate your prop shaft diameter ]

NOTE ?
The above pricing is for one engine. If 2 engines [ of any hp rating ] are ordered at the same time, pricing will be as follows ?

16hp engine, as above $6230

20hp engine, as above 6630

Similar discounts are available for any Beta Marine engine, from 10hp to 90hp.

If 3 engines are ordered at the same time, we will sell all options at our cost.

Please contact me if I can be of further service. Thank you.
Joe DeMershttp jedsail@mindspring.comaa 860-666-2184

Summersdawn · Post by **Summersdawn** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:13 pm

The Interdeck "Kaholee Grey" is a pefect shade! Looks good. Too bad Interlux didn't offer this colour, I think it would be a big seller.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:30 am

I have to give Windrose credit for the mix (which I did originally on the Kaholee project site back when I mixed the color a month or so ago). It's two parts white to one part gray.

Interdeck is good paint, but Interlux really needs to broaden and improve the color choices. The gray is untenable in its out-of-the-can form. (They did the same thing with Bilgekote.)

Maybe it's a secret way to make users buy more paint than they need so that they can mix a decent color.

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:25 pm

I made the down payment on my 20HP Beta Marine engine today. Joe is willing to offer us a group discount, so if anyone is interested, here's your chance to get a new engine for a bit less.

Is this deal still available? I might be interested in a BV1305 - 35 hp engine.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:33 pm

JonnyBoats wrote:
I made the down payment on my 20HP Beta Marine engine today. Joe is willing to offer us a group discount, so if anyone is interested, here's your chance to get a new engine for a bit less.
Is this deal still available? I might be interested in a BV1305 - 35 hp engine.

JonnyBoats, the deal is good until 5/1/07. Be sure to tel Joe you want to be part of the group buy related to Allen Hilburn. Also, please post here when you've made your deal so everyone will know what price point we are at.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:36 pm

I think I will go with this deal too. How long does it take to get an engine delivered from the time you order it?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:17 am

Noah, give Joe at Sound Marine Diesel a call. He can probably ship as soon as you want as he has a number of engines in stock. Let me know how it goes. . Be sure to tell him you are part of the Allen Hilburn group so he knows you get the discounts. I think you might be number 3 or 4 depending on who has called in so far.

JonnyBoats · Post by **JonnyBoats** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:48 pm

Today I send Joe a deposit on a 28 HP engine. So if others are considering going in on this group purchase, this should help bring the price down for us.

I will be installing this engine in my LeComte Northeast 38.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:28 am

In case there are readers who aren't following this particular thread, I would suggest that it would be worthwhile to post information about the group diesel purchase in a dedicated thread with a descriptive title. It seems to have garnered plenty of interest even in this thread, but perhaps there are others.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:42 am

Sure Tim, I could post it where you think it would do the most good, or you can just move the details and advise that we have the base three purchases at this point.

windrose · Post by **windrose** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:45 am

Wow, the guru used something I came up with (my head swelleth). ;-) Seriously, I have found the color very pleasing and Kaholee is the fourth boat I know of that has now used the blend and I must say she looks fantastic. It is amazing how quickly things are coming together on her. Keep up the great work and keep posting regular photo reports.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:18 pm

Well, I've always though that when you look up "Workaholic" in the dictionary there should be a picture of Tim. :)