Questions Regarding Removal of Framework from Wooden Boat

[Allen]

Gentlemen,

The following photographs are of a wooden boat and the removal of her internal framework She is a project boat being worked on
by a fellow on another board. If I am correct he believes glassing the outside of the hull and adding some internal bulkhead support
will compensate for the removal of the internal framework (ribs not the keel). I believe he is trying to make a fiberglass hull out of
the old wooden hull. Does anyone think this is a sound idea? Is there anyway removal of the internal framework of an wooden hull
could be compensated for, other than reinstalling this framework?

I think this guy is courting disaster, but I'm not a wooden boat expert. Opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[CharlieJ]

In a wooden boat the frames are what give the boat her shape- the planking is simply hung on those frames to keep out the water and give longitudinal strength. The frames also carry the floors, which carry the ballast load.

Yes, he's courting disaster by simply glassing over the old hull and removing the frames.

I've seen old wooden boats resurrected by installing bulkheading inside to hold (or recover) the shape, then multiple diagonal planking laid on using epoxy and staples. The the old interior is removed, except for load carrying bulkheading. It's a MAJOR undertaking.

Glassing over the existing planking will not work unless there is a HEAVY layup of glass applied, basically making a new hull using the old as a mold. Just a couple of layers of glass does not have the strength to hold the planking when it comes and goes as the moisture changes- the glass covering will crack. Guaranteed. Again, a major undertaking.

If I were he I'd get in touch with the Tech department at the Gougeon Brothers and get any and all info they currently have on the matter. That;'s a big boat, with significant loadings from the rig- the job will be a long one and cost a bundle. he needs to really understand what he's about before he starts. It would most likely be cheaper and simpler to replace the frames one by one until they are all new, refastening the planking as he went.

[Allen]

Thanks Charlie, I'll pass that along. I'm actually concerned about this fellows safety, not to mention the amount of money he will throw at this project and still wind up with an unsafe vessel.

[Tim]

What he's proposing won't work, and I honestly don't know why he'd even try. For his plan to have the most remote chance of working, certainly he'd need some heavy scantlings for the fiberglass and would also need fiberglass on the inside, to create a sandwich structure in the hull (which brings up a host of issues, of course, especially in this case, and it isn't even a viable option here).

And even then all fiberglass boats require some sort of internal structure to help them hold their shape--bulkheads, interior grids, floors, and other support. Simply removing the framing and relying upon an overlay of fiberglass is asking for disaster. What in the world does he think is going to hold the keel together, and the ballast? Maybe he'll drive a few drywall screws through for good measure.

Something tells me, from looking at the photos of the ripped-out framing, that this bozo might find out sooner than later that his plan is a disaster. With luck, the boat'll crumble right there in the yard before he puts himself--or, more importantly, others--at risk.

Ask him if he'd like to first try laying some fiberglass over the walls of his house, and then remove all the framing from inside. If he can't see that this is an identically crazy scenario, then he's too far gone to save.

Problem is, if he succeeds in managing to "fix" this boat in this manner without it falling apart along the way, he'll then probably sail off and put rescuers' lives in danger when he founders. I have no problem with idiots putting their own well being at risk, as long as they don't ask for (or require) help and rescue when they do.

I admire the "can-do" spirit, but some people need a serious dose of reality.

I've never understood why people buy wooden boats and then want to make them into fiberglass ones--as if somehow wood was an inferior building material. Don't buy a wooden boat if you don't want a wooden boat. And don't slap fiberglass over a wooden boat, either. (Engineered wood/fiberglass composite boats being a notable exception, of course...and there are occasional other exceptions too, but that's another topic.)

[Jason K]

I need to go through some photos to find a photo of a boat whose owner tried exactly that. I took the photo because the boat sank in her slip. I don't know that glassing the hull is what necessarily caused the sinking, but the boat - once gorgeous, I'm sure - was a nightmarishly doomed project.

I never did speak to the owner, so I don't know the details of the project. I don't know that he was necessarily trying to remove the framing.

I do know this, if you want a to make a fiberglass boat from a wooden one, use the hull for a plug. If you turn your boat into a Frankenstein experiment, you'll only end up with a monster.

[Figment]

Has he already glassed the exterior?

Now that all of the frames are gone, what does he imagine is retaining the hull's shape?

[Allen]

Here's the link to the thread. He seems to be getting defensive about his plans since he has been getting a lot of negative feed back. Decide for yourself.

http://renegade-cruisers.org/bb/viewtop ... sc&start=0

[kendall]

sounds as though he's made up his mind and that's it, if he's lucky it'll fold in the slings on launch. I don't see that boat living long after it hit's the water.

Some people it takes a knot on the head for them to understand what you mean by duck.

ken.

[Tommy Bahama]

I can't believe that he tore all those old ribs out at one time...that's something that you replace one at a time (or jig) in order to maintain the shape, as you all have mentioned.

Maybe he is thinking that he will also completly glass the inside while using the old planking as a core? He still needs some sort of frame work inside to maintain the shape, though.

It may have rode on the mooring without coming apart but it certainly will. I hope it happens "on the hard" and not while family and friends are on board.

Tom

[bcooke]

Reading through his posts though it sounds like he has more than a 'skin' on the outside. He references between .75" of fiberglass on the topsides to 1.5" at the keel. That would be thicker than most newer production fiberglass boats I know though I am not familar with the thicknesses in a boat quite that length. A couple of solid bulkheads and it just might hold together.

It is still a hack job and not something I would want to be involved with. I imagine the original planking is either going to swell and shrink until something gives or the outer 'shell' is going to create a heck of a rot problem. I suppose he will just fix that by encapsalating everything with epoxy...

A shame; seems like a classic looking boat before the monkeys got to it.

-Britton

[Tim]

3/8" - 3/4" on the topsides and bottom a lot of glass, to be sure. The 1-1/2" on the keel is irrelevant because it's probably just the overlapping from the bottom layers, thereby doubling its thickness. (OK, it's not really irrelevant, but it's probably a small area that's covered that thickly.) But what's the quality of the glass? Thick doesn't necessarily mean strong, and we all know (or should know) that fiberglass over a carvel-planked wooden hull is not generally a recipe for long-term success of either structure.

However, things aren't quite as dire as originally thought, and he is talking about putting in bulkheads. I still think he's doing the wrong thing, but at least it's not quite as idiotic as originally thought.

[mishnish]

An old fisherman once told me a wooden boat is like a whale... it needs the water to support it, and if it were out of the water it would suffocate due to the weight of itself... this guys just removed the whales "ribcage" and expects it to live... not going to happen. Also the frames hold the planks together at the seams to a certain extent. Whats holding them together now? Im sure that there isnt some kind of super adhesive between the planks! :-)

[jollyboat]

OK,
I am a little late on this but this person is not going about this the right way. Someone's thread mentioned replacing one rib at a time and this is correct. Doing a little research here would have been helpful.

Davie Jone's Locker