Two quick Awlgrip questions

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hebert01
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Two quick Awlgrip questions

Post by hebert01 »

Two quickies...

1. Is 545 primer thinned for brushing with the same reducer used for the topcoat (i.e., T0031 brushing reducer), or is there a separate primer-specific brushing reducer? I see there's a separate primer reducer available for spray application, but I haven't found one for brushing / rolling.

2. What's the difference between AwlPrep and AwlPrep Plus? Literature seems to suggest "strong" vs. "mild" dewaxer / surface prep, but is it that simple? Is it worth the few extra bucks to use the AwlPrep Plus as the cleaner of choice?

As always... thanks!
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Post by Tim »

1. As far as I know, when brushing, you use the spray reducer for 545 primer; there is not a 545-specific brush reducer. DO NOT ever mix reducers between primers and topcoats; each product has its own specific reducer and they are not interchangeable.

2. Awl-Prep is a basic wipe-down solvent for use between coats and so forth; these wipe-down solvents typically contain percentages of mineral spirits or naptha, as well as other materials, but in a highly refined form to avoid solvent-based contamination that can occur with inexpensive mineral spirits and other solvents.

Awl-Prep Plus is a much stronger and different solvent intended for initial cleaning, dewaxing, and degreasing, and cannot be used between coats as it softens Awlgrip primers and topcoats. There are other products and methods you can use to initially prepare the surface for sanding, etc., but it seems a small price to pay to use this one additional step to help ensure there will be no surface contamination at the onset.

In my mind, you need both and they are not interchangeable, but if you only use one, use only the regular Awl-Prep, as it is what you need through the bulk of the painting process.

I typically use the dewaxing/degreasing solvent (Awl-Prep Plus or Alexseal A9091) before beginning surface sanding or preparation (to clean the old surface), and then again once the surface prep and sanding are complete (i.e. bare gelcoat).

Once I start applying primers and thereafter, however, I use only the regular wipe-down solvent (Awl-Prep or Alexseal A9094), as I have found the stronger versions can soften the primers and topcoats, at least in their early stages of cure (which is when you're using these products to begin with, of course).
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Post by Hirilondë »

For brushing I can't imagine wanting to thin 545. I sometimes wish they made a thickener. If it starts to thicken in the pot after mixing (usually well over a day) it is probably curing, and it is time to throw it away. But 545 and the topcoats are not the same at all, and I wouldn't mix the thinners.
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Post by hebert01 »

Thanks for the info, guys. Dave, it's good to know that 545 is quite usable without thinner.

Out of curiosity, I dug a bit more into the literature and finally found the actual PDF tech sheet for 545. Seems that, believe it or not, they do call for T0031 as the brushing reducer. I believe this is the same brushing reducer used with the topcoat chemistry. Here's the link to the PDF

While I've got some experience working with urethanes, I've never used Awlgrip before, so this spring will be my trial by fire. The intimidating thing with Awlgrip for me so far is not the precision needed for its proper application, but rather the confusion surrounding the myriad primer, converter, reducer, and accelerator combinations available within the system. But obviously two-part urethanes ain't your standard issue latex paints, either.

Looking forward to the challenge. Don't worry, I'll post some pics to chronicle all the mistakes I'll undoubtedly be making. At least with the Ensign, there's less hull surface area to sand when I flub...
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Post by Rachel »

Ed,

I imagine there will be some Awlgrip brushing in my future at some point (I chickened out and painted my fiberglass dinghy mast with Brightsides last summer), so I'm reading along.

I'm curious about something I'm seeing: If I'm reading correctly, the .pdf describes it as a "clear epoxy primer," and says that it's for sealing wood and carbon fiber (but don't mention "regular" fiberglass). And... I don't see where Alwgrip (color) is one of the recommended topcoats (?) (I can't seem to "copy" from the document, but they mention topcoating with Awlgrip high gloss clear, Awlcraft 2000, Awlspar, etc.)

Just to read more, I Googled "Awlgrip 545" and came up with Jamestown's page. They describe it more how I would have expected, and say it's white or grey, and can be overcoated with Awlgrip primers (high-build, etc.).

BTW, Jamestown does list a different thinner for spraying than for brushing (Ed had noted the T0031 for brushing): From their online catalog:

"Spray: ... Reduce up to 25% with T0003.

Brush/Roll: Reduce 5-10% with T0031."

I hope I'm not just confusing the issue, but the .pdf has me a bit puzzled. What am I missing? I do see that the product shown in Jamestown is "D1001" whereas the .pdf mentions "D3020 and D3001"

I almost didn't post this because I don't want to confuse the issue; so I hope that isn't the case, and that any information gleaned will be useful for Ed as well.

Rachel
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Post by hebert01 »

Hmmmm.....puzzling. It's just like I mentioned earlier, Rachel...it's confusing as all get out! It's an odd feeling with Awlgrip...the more I read, the less I feel I know. :-) And then there's that discrepancy in product codes you just discovered. I dunno.

Well, let me give it another read, and see if I missed something - again. Interesting to learn that Jamestown calls out T0031 for 545, though...and as Dave mentioned, one should only need about 5-10%. Funny, since if 545 is epoxy, then I'd guess that epoxy and urethane would reduce optimally with different solvents.

Yeah, I chickened out last year too, and just decided to put the paint off for another year. I vowed that this year would be the leap for me. after all, it's not like it's polymer science or anything! Oh wait....forget I said that. Still knocking my knees a bit, though.

Still got a month or two to sort through the logistics.
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Post by Hirilondë »

The clear is new to me. We get white and grey base at work. Our painters like the grey as it makes finding the small scratches for final fairing easier. If any paint job challenges the quality of the prep work, LPU topsides is it.
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Post by Tim »

The clear sealer described in the data sheet above, confusingly also called 545 for whatever reason, is obviously a completely different product that looks like it's intended for the growing market in clear-sealing wood and decorative carbon products.

This is the actual data sheet for the 545 epoxy primer:

Technical Data Sheet for 545 Epoxy Primer (PDF File)

Clearly I didn't check the datasheet before replying yesterday about the brushing reducer. T00031 is indeed the recommended product. You learn something every day. I've been using Alexseal for long enough that this is a good refresher course in Awlgrip product nomenclature for me.

You can't go wrong by paying attention to and following the manufacturer's specs, recommendations, and instructions.

Be careful about overthinking this too much. Months of thought and preparation are of some benefit, but tend to psych you out and, in the end, you discover that you simply can't prepare sufficiently until you actually mix the products and start using them.

Follow the directions and accept the learning curve that exists. Practice with and test every mix to see how it reacts and to fine-tune the reduction if necessary. Be wary of applying it too thick, as runs can form very easily. More, thinner coats are better.

In the end, it's only paint, but the topcoats in particular act differently than most any other paint you may have used. Proper reduction is critical to your success with either spray or brush application (particularly with topcoats but also with the primers), and this is the trickiest part of the process, yet only trial and error will get you to the proper mix at any given time and under a given set of conditions. Don't guess at the reduction, and don't base what you think is right on the consistency of the paint in the can or mixing pot. Begin with the minimum recommended reduction. Test it with your application tools. Wait a while. See if it runs or sags and adjust accordingly. All these paints are going to end up being thinner than you'd expect.

When the product directions call for a minimum amount of reducer, I believe you should always add at least that much, regardless of whether or not you think you can apply it without. You may not need more, but all of these products indicate a minimum percentage of reducer in every mix. I suggest you follow those recommendations.

It's a precise process, and these paints tend to be less forgiving of errors and failure to follow directions.

You'll love 545 primer. But don't think that the same application and mixing guidelines that work for the primer will work for the topcoat, when you get to it. The topcoats are another thing entirely and will require an additional learning curve. None of this is insurmountable.
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Post by hebert01 »

Be careful about overthinking this too much.
This is probably the best advice of all. I have a tendency to prepare to the point of paralysis, and I need to break that habit. I intend to give it a shot, make a few mistakes, learn as I go, hopefully have a few laughs along the way, and eventually end up with a product that's not entirely repulsive.

If the process of discovering, learning, and experimenting with all this stuff wasn't part of the fun, then none of us would probably be here talking about it. We'd be off writing checks to the boatyard instead. Or maybe sailing, as I hear that's quite an enjoyable pastime as well!
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Post by Rachel »

hebert01 wrote:
Be careful about overthinking this too much.
This is probably the best advice of all. I have a tendency to prepare to the point of paralysis, and I need to break that habit.
Let me know when you figure out how... ;^)
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