CAD software

Technical information and geeky boat stuff
Post Reply
JonnyBoats
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: Wiscasset, ME
Contact:

CAD software

Post by JonnyBoats »

I know there are excellent Computer Aided Design (CAD) software packages out there that are used in the marine industry, Catia http://www.3ds.com/products-solutions/p ... ons/catia/ and Autocad http://usa.autodesk.com come to mind. Unfortunately these packages can be quite expensive.

What I would like to know about are lower cost options appropriate for classic plastic restoration projects, I would like to be able to:

1) Document the existing boat and its parts/pieces.

2) Share those drawings with others in a portable format they can use.

3) Design new items (a holding tank or a metal fitting for example) and be able to transmit my design electronicaly to a shop for fabrication.

Suggestions?
John Tarbox
S/V Altair, a LeComte NorthEast 38
http://www.boatmaine.us
Figment
Damned Because It's All Connected
Posts: 2845
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:32 am
Boat Name: Triton
Boat Type: Grand Banks 42
Location: L.I. Sound

Post by Figment »

Do you have any experience with technical drawing or CAD work, or are you coming at it from square one?
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

John,

I use AutoCAD for several of your needs: sending files for fabrication, drawing bits for my own use, plotting full size templates, etc. That said, I only use AutoCAD for boating because I have access to it. It's a pretty crummy program on many levels, not the least of which is that AutoDESK is sucessfully mass-marketing to something like 70% of the engineers, surveyors, architects, and planners and not concentrating on a tiny subset of folks who need good 3D shape-handling.

AutoCAD does not do 3D shapes well, cannot recognise points on 3D surfaces, cannot draw normal (perpendicular) lines to surfaces, cannot fair curves in 2D very well, cannot understand surfaces defined by a table of offsets, cannot discover interferences.

I drew a Flying Dutchman in AutoCAD, using the Class's table of offsets, and discovered all of the above grumps. I was attempting to plan veneer lines, frame shapes, running rigging assemblies but gave it up. I was able to build the rolling cradle using it.

So, I second your call for a decent inexpensive program!

Recording 3D shapes is an interesting sub-topic. We had a presentation in the office by folks who set up a laser distancing toy on a tripod and wired to a computer. They turn the thing on and it records a 'cloud' of points. They then set the thing up somewhere else, identify a few common points, then record another 'cloud' of points. Their software assembles the information into a scalable 3D model of the room, the city square, the building. They can reduce the model to 2D drawings and sections. Very cool! No doubt this is exactly what you could use to 'take off' the lines of a boat. Very expensive, and they're selling the service, not the toys.
JonnyBoats
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 372
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: Wiscasset, ME
Contact:

Post by JonnyBoats »

Do you have any experience with technical drawing or CAD work, or are you coming at it from square one?
I have worked with computers all my life and have done mechanical drawings witha T-square and drafting table.
So, I second your call for a decent inexpensive program!
Actually I was not trying to start a crusade for a new program, I am hoping there is something out there ;-)
John Tarbox
S/V Altair, a LeComte NorthEast 38
http://www.boatmaine.us
keelbolts
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:20 pm
Location: Tidewater, VA

Post by keelbolts »

I've been out of the business of architecture for almost 15 years now so much has probably changed, but I remember DataCad as being fairly good and inexpensive. I went from AutoCad to InterGraph, I believe it was called. InterGraph was GAWDAWFUL. I quit the firm after only 5 or 6 months rather than deal with it. Worked breifly on DataCad. I found it to be almost as easy to use as AutoCad, but at about a tenth of the price.

Can another forumite add some up to date info on DataCad?
Celerity - 1970 Morgan 30

How much deeper would the ocean be without sponges in it?
User avatar
Tim
Shipwright Extraordinaire
Posts: 5708
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:39 pm
Boat Name: Glissando
Boat Type: Pearson Triton
Location: Whitefield, ME
Contact:

Post by Tim »

I've worked with a system for years that has proven to be easy to learn, accurate, and effective, with a very simple interface that even pre-schoolers can get used to quickly. Errors are easy to correct, and the system never seems to crash. I've even heard that early versions of this system have been found dating back to the beginning of the industrial revolution.

Image
---------------------------------------------------
Forum Founder--No Longer Participating
User avatar
Ceasar Choppy
Boat Obsession Medal Finalist
Posts: 622
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:05 am
Location: Port Starboard, MD

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

Yeah, except I've heard that program has a bug-- in that the pencil is wont to wonder off on its own. That usually only happens in the shop though.
Figment
Damned Because It's All Connected
Posts: 2845
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:32 am
Boat Name: Triton
Boat Type: Grand Banks 42
Location: L.I. Sound

Post by Figment »

Datacad? wow there's a blast from the past. (enter Nathan with the appropriately obscure early 90's music reference) I haven't thought about datacad in ten years at least.

Like Quetzal, I use autocad because it's here at my fingertips, not because it's the right tool for the job, certainly not because it's reasonably priced.

Documenting the boat can be an interesting exercise, but the software required to do it properly/accurately will cost you a nice suit of sails. I'd say do what you can within the abilities of whatever software you can obtain for free/cheap, and leave it at that.

Sharing drawings in a portable format? pdf is a godsend.
Sharing across different cad systems? This is where the dominance of AutoCad has been a good thing: all cad systems have the ability to produce something like a dxf file that can leap between systems. Some bugs inevitably happen in that leap, but we get by.

If you need a tank or a part fabricated, I'd just draw it up hardline and scan to pdf. If the part is so complex that they need a lasercut or a CNC control file, you probably need a simpler solution anyway.

I'm probably not being very helpful. I've toyed with maxsurf a bit, but I've been working in autocad since the age of 13, it's completely intuitive to me, so I tend to just make autocad do what I need it to do instead of learning better ways or using easier tools.
User avatar
hebert01
Almost a Finish Carpenter
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:04 pm
Boat Name: Allegra
Boat Type: Pearson Ensign
Location: Mattapoisett, MA

Post by hebert01 »

While this isn't CAD in the traditional sense, I figured I'd mention FreeShip. Haven't used it myself, but this open source program is a subdivision modeler designed specifically for the creation and analysis of boat hull designs. Seems interesting, so I figured I'd add it to this discussion. If anyone's played with it, I'd be curious to know if it's any good. If nothing else, you'll get your money's worth.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/freeship/
Ed Hebert
ALLEGRA - Ensign #998
User avatar
Bluenose
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:19 pm
Boat Name: Bolero
Boat Type: Modified Shields One Design
Location: Lopez Island, WA
Contact:

Post by Bluenose »

I have experienced the frustration of good 2D programs that won't do 3D and good 3D programs that won't lay down 2D sections. On top of all that the good programs are expensive.

When I started thinking about and planning my Bolero project I had a goal of creating a 3D model of the Shields and making the modifications and laying out the interior. Well I failed big time and eventually used a 2D top view and side view with the occasional section cut to create my ideas.

The 3D program that I most wanted to work, because it was simple and intuitive, was Google Sketchup. Alas it was a bit too basic with respect to 3D contours. I ended up in Autocad. I would agree with many of the shortcoming mentioned about Autocad but I would also say that it is a powerful 2D drawing tool. If I was going to draw in 2D I would seek it out. I took an Autocad drawing class and ended up with a copy of Autocad 2002 and it works great. I don't see any reason for the casual user to buy the newest version of Acad for thousands of dollars. I did a quick check on ebay and found complete copies of 2002 for about $200 plus or minus.

At that price we are only talking about a storm sail.

Good luck, Bill
MikeD
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:42 pm
Boat Name: Totoro
Boat Type: Sea Sprite 23 (#626)
Location: Scarborough, Maine

Post by MikeD »

Along those lines, another FREE option you might try this: GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program

I haven't really taken the time to learn it well, but a member on the Ariel forum uses it quite convincingly here.
Mike
Totoro (SS23 #626)
User avatar
Bluenose
Candidate for Boat-Obsession Medal
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:19 pm
Boat Name: Bolero
Boat Type: Modified Shields One Design
Location: Lopez Island, WA
Contact:

Post by Bluenose »

I've worked with a system for years that has proven to be easy to learn, accurate, and effective, with a very simple interface that even pre-schoolers can get used to quickly. Errors are easy to correct, and the system never seems to crash. I've even heard that early versions of this system have been found dating back to the beginning of the industrial revolution.
Since my PC is a tablet I have a revised version of Tim's venerable Digit Aided Design (DAD) system. I call it fingerCAD. Here are some sample of this high quality work.

Image

Image

I sent these to Tim and I don't think I encouraged him to upgrade his system:).
Figment
Damned Because It's All Connected
Posts: 2845
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 9:32 am
Boat Name: Triton
Boat Type: Grand Banks 42
Location: L.I. Sound

Post by Figment »

Good point. For the use intended, there's no need to have anything newer than release 7 (circa 1986+/-?).

Well, the very early releases probably don't work with current operating systems. Still, I wouldn't hesistate to snag a very cheap copy of R14.
Quetzalsailor
Master of the Arcane
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:53 am
Boat Name: Quetzal
Boat Type: LeComte North East 38
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by Quetzalsailor »

AutoCAD R14 is nearly as good as 2006, except for hatching and other minor improvements.

Those pencils do scoot! I collected a couple coffee tins ful of stubs in an architects office, sharpened them one last time and sowed them on the upper floors of a small house I was rebuilding at the time. The idea was that there would ALWAYS be a pencil within reach when I needed one. I NEVER saw any of them after the first day!
User avatar
tikvah59
Master Varnisher
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:12 am
Boat Name: Emily Hope
Boat Type: Nimble 30' yawl
Location: Milton, MA
Contact:

Post by tikvah59 »

While I haven't used it myself, I've heard great things about Google Sketchup. It claims to do 3D, is available to anyone with an Internet connection, and it's free.

http://sketchup.google.com/

I've also used a CAD program called Vectorworks for theater lighting design. It's a full-blown 3D CAD program which you can get for $140 if you can prove your a teacher in K-12 or higher ed.

http://www.academicsuperstore.com/marke ... tNo=859667

Mark
Emily Hope
Nimble 30' yawl
JetStream
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:53 pm
Boat Name: Sojourn
Boat Type: Pearson 27
Location: Jamestown, RI

Post by JetStream »

I use a program called TurboCad by Imsi. You can usually buy it on sale some where for $100 and it does do 3D. You have to spend a little time with it to get productive and I only use the 2D capabilities, but it does make nice drawings. http://www.cadandgraphics.com/tcdlx14.h ... OAod_Tw1dQ
Bruce
deckhand
Rough Carpentry Apprentice
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:29 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by deckhand »

for those familiar with adobe illustrator and who only want a 2d system (with the ability to do isometric as well but not true 3d) you might want to take a look at hotdoor's cadtools. I use this program all the time for doing things like taking an image, making a scale to go with the image and figuring out the rest of its dimensions. Super useful and very intuitive, plus since it's built on the AI program, you get all of the illustration capabilities.

For real 3d vector works is good, I don't do a lot of 3d cad so I usually take my 2d models out of Cadtools and loft/extrude/lathe them in Maxon's Cinema 4d. I did do some autocad at one time, but found it clumsy and overly time consuming (did they ever fix that strange snap function? I remember that being horrible). For 2d Cadtools would knock out a usable model in a quarter of the time.
Dave
T30 #164 "Hobyn"
www.dkyrejko.com/hobyn
keelbolts
Skilled Systems Installer
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:20 pm
Location: Tidewater, VA

Post by keelbolts »

As an aside, when I started working AutoCad the manual was a single 3 ring binder with xeroxed copies of typed instructions. Last time I saw one, an AutoCad 'manual' filled a whole shelf.
Celerity - 1970 Morgan 30

How much deeper would the ocean be without sponges in it?
Post Reply