Gone to the Dogs

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Quetzalsailor
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Gone to the Dogs

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Sad day yesterday, I winterized and covered Quetzal.

Usually, the winterizing process is not so painful as it turned out to be yesterday. The grim step is pumping the 110 gal fresh water up and out of the keel tank and letting it fall into the bilge. The bilge pump dumps it overboard as fast as I can pump it, using one of West's cheepie dinghy pumps.

Not yesterday. The Rule 2000 bilge pump ran but the rate was slow and ever slower. So, I pumped the bilge using the new plastic Whale with its ridiculously short pump handle. I withdrew the Rule and found its screen was plugged with American Black and Tan Coonhound hair. This hair is quite copious and is short and straight, means that it drops through the spaces between the sole boards and makes its way to the deep blige. A curly-haired dog (or me or my wife) would not have this effect. Adding to the pleasure, the Rule appears to have given up its ghost.

So! The game is to build a readily withdrawable rig so that the pump can be serviced more easily. The keel/bilge is about 40" deep from the sole, but is occluded by various useful hoses, like the diesel fill and feed and the water source for the refrigerator. My thought is to mount it on a stick with wire and discharge arranged for easy disconnect. But the devil, as always, is in the details.

Ideas? Experience?
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Hirilondë »

Quetzalsailor wrote: Ideas? Experience?
I remove my garboard drain plug which sometimes goes in the false keel like on my Renegade. I disconnect the water line from my tank, the outlet is in the lowest part of the tank and I am done. Gravity does all the work.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Rachel
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Rachel »

I made a long L-shaped bracket out of aluminum bar stock. I think it was something like 1/8" x 2". I just bent the shape in a vise. The top of the long section attached to a vertical bulkhead just ahead of the deep bilge with a couple of fasteners; the pump/float were mounted on the "foot" part. The long section had a couple of custom "warbles" to make it conform to the situation.

If I had it to do over again I might use fiberglass stock instead of aluminum, but with the same set-up.

Somehow.... no photos.

Rachel
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Tim
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Tim »

Here's one I built last spring from various fiberglass pieces. This one got held in position by a couple screws at the top of the vertical leg (not shown in the photos) that secured it to a bracket beneath the cabin sole--lower the whole arrangement into the bilge and attach the screws to hold it there. The vertical leg was probably 36" + in length. There was ample play in the hose and bundled-up extra wiring at the top to allow the arrangement to be removed.

Image

Image
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Rachel
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Rachel »

See, now that's how I was saying I would build one next time!

One advantage the aluminum barstock had for my application was that the vertical leg neatly made a shallow "S" curve where it needed to; but I still like the fiberglass better.
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Tim's is just about where I need to be except that his bilge appears unobstructed. While I can retrieve the pump with a bit of line that I've tied through its snap-off bottom, it and the discharge hose snarls on everything, as it's lifted, including the bottom of the fuel tank and the pickup for the manual pump. It's one thing to fiddle with the boat sitting at the mooring, but quite another to imagine the boat out somewhere bouncing, water sloshing, other things going wrong. I'll want to arrange easier access to both the manual pump's pickup as well as to the electric.

I have a backflow preventer on the electric bilgepump's discharge. It is inaccessible, particularly during an exciting moment. I have to lie on the engine and even then it's at maximum reach back past the stuffing box. I presume it's there to prevent water under the transom overhang from flooding the boat through the pump. (An old CCA boat like Quetzal sails on her ear and gets about 5' of additional waterline length with her overhang.) The engine exhaust and the head have a reasonably high, vented loops. A high loop on the electric pump discharge, however foolproof, reduces its capacity by increasing its head. The manual pump is up under the cockpit seat so it effectively has a high loop, and it has backflow preventers in the form of its clapper valves.

I'm thinking that I should arrange both bilge pumps' discharge lines to come forward under the engine and arrive under the galley sole access boards, both with pvc unions (so that I do not have to fuss with barbed connections), and the electric pumps' backflow preventer right there. Now, both discharge lines drop down into the deep keel back by the stuffing box and their natural stiffness makes retrieval a fishing expedition for the manual and a clumsy string pull for the electric.

A garboard drain is tempting, save for the issue of emergency maintenance and access - too far down. A bottom connection for the water tank is not possible to reach for installation or access - also too far down.
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Tim »

My own opinion is that every boat ought to have a garboard drain that can be--and is--removed when the boat is hauled--period.

While I have never, ever heard of a boat coming to the remotest grief because of having a garboard drain (other than the occasional embarrassing yet ultimately harmless moment immediately upon launching a boat when the boatyard or owner forgets to put the drain plug in), I can point to many incidences where the lack of a drain plug caused immense trouble to the inside of the boat during storage--never mind the simple convenience of easy bilge washdown and draining.

There's really no chance for failure with a good, solid, threaded, well-installed garboard drain--there really should be no worries about having it, yet the benefits are significant.
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Rachel
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Rachel »

I'm going to put in a plug here for the Buck Algonquin all bronze garboard drain plug. Selfishly, I want people to keep buying them so they aren't discontinued! This is the only one I've found that is actually bronze. The other "bronze" ones that I've seen actually have a brass plug, if you read the fine print.

Image

Hamilton Marine is one place that carries them; their part number is BKA-00DP100:

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse. ... ,2236.html
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Hirilondë »

Rachel wrote:I'm going to put in a plug here for the Buck Algonquin all bronze garboard drain plug.
That's what mine looks like.

Like Tim says they are positively safe. A H&L equipment operator friend of mine tapes the plug to the prop shaft after removing it so as not to lose it and as a reminder to himself in the spring to put it back in before launching.
Dave Finnegan
builder of Spindrift 9N #521 'Wingë'
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Tim »

Rachel wrote:I'm going to put in a plug here...
No pun intended? ;<)
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Rachel
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Rachel »

;)
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Triton106 »

This discussion on garboard drain plugs reminded me a question - I have one on Blossom as well. However, since buying Triton106 about 10 years ago (it's been that long already sadly) I have hauled it out four times (out here on the west coast we don't haul out every year) and each time I stared at the plug and could not figure out how to get the old paint that is trapped in square hole (I have no idea what it is called). The PO also did not leave the square key for me. Does anyone have any idea how to get the paint out and what size key it uses?
Ray D. Chang
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Tim »

Drill bit, awl, dental pick, chisel, screwdriver...whatever it takes. The paint shouldn't be too hard to get out with a tool and some patience.

The drain plug shown in the photos above has about a 1/2" square hole for the key. A 1/2" drive ratchet head might work if you don't have the key. Yours is probably similar.
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Quetzalsailor
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Note, in the photograph, the difference in color between the bronze flange and the plug itself.

I suppose that you could buy a replacement plug actually made out of bronze. If someone's dying of curiosity, I'll dig out my research from a couple years ago. When I found that West Marine and all the rest of 'em didn't sell all the bronze fittings that I needed for re-working the head, I went on line and found a wholesaler/supplier that did, and for not alot of extra trouble or cost.

I also suppose that a brass plug would not so badly corrode that it would fail before being removed at the end of the season. Unlike so many other pieces in the neverland of a boat, one would actually have the thing in hand twice (well, it wouldn't corrode very fast in winter) every year.

Tim's adamancy is bang on, I fear. I'd need two, one for the bilge and one for the water tank.
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Tim »

The Buck-Algonquin unit that Rachel referenced in the post above DOES have a bronze plug. The picture is a poor representation, but the screw plug (on this unit only) is bronze. Buy that particular model, from that manufacturer, and you're all set.

I have installed a number of these, and can attest to the fact that the plug is indeed solid bronze (as is the remainder of the drain assembly). It's a nice garboard drain.
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Rachel »

As Tim said, the Buck Algonquin one does have a bronze plug. They also sell the plug separately, if there's any chance it would fit someone's existing drain (who has a brass plug).

I would advise giving it a close look-over before installing it as I did get one (out of many) that had a slight casting flaw right where the little keyway meets the flange of the outer part - there was a tiny hole. Of course Hamilton happily exchanged it for another one, which was fine.

Rachel
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Quetzalsailor »

What makes this whole discussion about alloys annoying is the complete lack of assuredness about what you're paying good money for. With everything made overseas you've got even less. Even variations both within a sample and between components of supposedly the same alloy can cause corrosion.

A couple examples which come to my mind: adjacent screws in wood corroded to quite a different degree, big chunks out of the side of a bronze propeller shaft. Evidently different alloys in different components. Bronze screws in a bronze component. Brass parts adjacent to other brass parts.

We've all seen information where the materials are misnamed or trademarked. Must be true; here's a snip from Wikipedia:

"Bronze is typically 88% copper and 12% tin.[7] Alpha bronze consists of the alpha solid solution of tin in copper. Alpha bronze alloys of 4–5% tin are used to make coins, springs, turbines and blades.

Commercial bronze (90% copper and 10% zinc) and Architectural bronze (57% Copper, 3% Lead, 40% Zinc) are actually brass alloys because they contain zinc as the main alloying ingredient."
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Rachel »

Quetzal,

Your post made me want to find out some facts, so I gave Buck Algonquin a call. The fellow there told me that the garboard plug in question is made in China (to their specs, of course). I then asked where the bronze alloy was sourced, but he wasn't able to tell me (he did offer to put me through to the voicemail of someone who could answer, but I said no thank you for the moment).

I asked him which of their products were made overseas and which in the US (or how to tell), and he advised that the struts, rudder ports, and strainers (and maybe one other part that I forget, but along the same lines) were made in the US, in Pennsylvania; whereas the garboard plug, seacocks, and other "smaller" items were made overseas.

I would still rather it be made in the US, of US bronze; but I still don't know of another garboard plug wherein the plug part is not brass (if anyone does, I'd love to know about it).

I've posted in the past about research I did into the manufacture of bronze seacocks, before I purchased some -- I've found that a quick call to the manufacturer is a great way to find out where they're made and what goes into them (catalogs are sometimes wrong, I've found).

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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Chris Campbell »

Haven't read the thread in it's entirety - so I apologize if I'm hurting anyone's feelings or repeating what's been said...

Put in a bilge pump on a rot-proof, removable stick - and drill a hole at the bottom of the deep bilge. No other way that I can come up with...

Image

That said, I never got up the nerve to drill a good-sized hole in a perfectly good boat, either!

Good luck.

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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I spent a goodly number of hours on my knees reinstalling my Rule 2000 automatic bilge pump and rewiring the circuit that it's on. I bought a nifty $30 Rule switch with 'Off, Manual, Auto' positions. I have a second, baby Rule up forward in a LeComte 38's annoying sump. I thought I was being just soooo smart and wired the switch and the two pumps so that they would both run on 'Manual' and the 2000 would supposedly run on 'Auto'. This is the same pump that I reported above had quit working.
After a winter in the basement, I cleaned out the channel that the float is captured within and found that it would run. So, I made a dandy fiberglass rig, assembled the thing, verified that it ran on boat juice, stuck it all together and flipped the switch to 'Auto'. And...a moment's silence and the pump emptied the winter's small collection of water and would not shut off. It's supposed to run for a few extra seconds to slurp out all it can but it failed to shut off. Additionally, the forward pump ran, too. It seems that if the motor is powered by the auto side then the manual wire is powered, too, and feeds the other pump.
IMG_2753-r.JPG
IMG_2754-r.JPG
So, the question is whether the electronics in the Rule 2000 are fried or whether a second pump befuddles 'em. It would not offend me if both pumps ran on the 2000's 'Auto' sensing of water. But they do need to shut off.
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Tim »

Is that one of those pumps that has some fancy-dancy electronic switch that senses the water, rather than a good old-fashioned float switch? I dislike that sort of pump/switch because I've found the electronic do-dads to be unreliable, particularly at shutting down. I replaced a brand-new one in my sump pump box last year because it refused to shut the pump off, immediately after being put into service for the first time. I took out the electronic "sensor" switch and replaced it with a regular old-fashioned float switch which worked (and continues to work) just fine.

Maybe you're having a different problem, but it sounds pretty familiar so far.
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Re: Gone to the Dogs

Post by Quetzalsailor »

All appears well. I very carefully checked and rechecked my wiring. I had, of course, done it wrong; I had wired the automatic side of the switch to the run side of the pump and the manual side of the switch to the automatic side of the pump. The fancy Rule switch left on Auto will allow the automatic Rule 2000 to run and runs the little slave up forward. Both pumps run on manual.

I was so confident that I left the pump circuit powered this weekend.

Hmmm.
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