Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

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Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by hebert01 »

Curious whether anyone knows of a place to find an online listing of fractional rig cruising sailboats? Either that or a searchable database of boat designs that might contain that field in the table.

I can think of many daysailers, racing or "racer/cruiser "(J-boat type) boats with a fractional rig, but in my mind I can only assemble a relatively small list of plastic classic cruising boats that let the factory with a fractional rig (Tritons being one such boat). A handful more come to mind off the top of my head, but I'd love to get my hands on an exhaustive list.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Case »

There aren't many fractionally rigged plastic classics. I know for sure because I looked. Exhaustively. Very few were built. The reason is because when the plastic classics started to be built, short masthead rigs was the rage due to the racing rules popular at the time.

Only 2 plastic classics over 30 feet that I know of that had factory fractional rigs were the Chesapeake 32 and the Rhodes Bounty (40 footer therebouts). And those two, most were actually masthead rigged. Only a few were fractionally rigged straight from the factory. That's about all I know of, there's NO other plastic classics I know of that had fractional rigs. Between 23 feet and 30 feet, there's a few racers like the Shields and the like. And a certain cruiser called the Triton. That's about it!

The Triton was built during the twilight of the tall fractional rig era during its time. Look at plastic classics designed after the Triton and you can see what I mean. There are very few fractional rig plastic classics once you go past 24 feet or so. Only recently have fractional rigs returned on larger boats today. Even today, many people often think fractional rigs as being not "proper" for larger boats! That's a silly thing because smaller headsails are easier to handle than large headsails...

If you love the look of classic long overhangs and the like, go for wooden sailboats built just before fiberglass became king. Fractional rigs were more common.

Sorry to tell you the bad news. The fractional rigged plastic classic pickings are awfully thin. This is one reason why if I were to go for a larger sailboat, it likely won't be a plastic classic.

- Case
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Bluenose »

Not that you get to be picky on this topic but my ideal would be a fractional rig with a large sail area, with the working jib, and designed to fly a masthead spinnaker. I think it would be a perfect cruising rig. A nice easy to manage sail plan upwind with an easy to control and reef mainsail and the ability to run up a masthead asymmetric spinnaker off the wind in the light stuff.

When I was contemplating a small classic plastic cruiser one of the design criteria I tracked was the percent of working sail area represented by the jib.

Image

Image

It was pretty rare to be below 50%. And that with a sail plan that was intentionally designed to really use a 150% genoa.

Gota love those darn racing rules.

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(my tables were thought to be correct years ago when I made them)
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by hebert01 »

Thanks for the feedback guys, and for the useful table, Bluenose. And Case, I didn't realize that there were frac-rigged Chesapeakes out there. The only ones I've seen are masthead rigged.

To the list, I'll add the Sea Sprite family of boats. Not the Alberg SS23, but the Luders-designed SS27/28, 30 and 34. Though to Case's point, they're more of a later-model boat than the early-classic CCA designs mentioned. But something built in the 80s would qualify for my personal "classic" list.

There are also a couple of more foreign "exotics" that I'm aware of, like the Hallberg P28, at least some of which left the factory with fractional rigs. Good luck finding one in my backyard, though. And then there are some nice semi-custom boats like the Bridges Point 24, but again, more modern, not a mass-production offering - and not inexpensive.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by hebert01 »

BTW, I'm loving the table, Bluenose. Great info you've compiled here, and a good family of boats. I'm a data junkie too. Do you happen to still have the XLS file? If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd like to add a few of my favorite boats to this comparative list.

Thanks!
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Case »

Dang, I forgot the larger Sea Sprites. Those were more recent, though - late 1970s & 1980s. I didn't think of them because of the time frame.

I was thinking about those built during the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s. The pickings are very slim in this era. Extremely so. The Chesapeake 32, I recall that there were one or two that were fractionally rigged. Its possible that they were retrofits but I recall seeing pictures of actual fractional rigs when the boats were brand new. I could be wrong in this. The Rhodes Bounty, the early ones built during the late 1950s, definitely came with fractional rigs. They looked like giant Tritons.

If you want more recent like late 1970s, 1980s, then your pickings get much better. One I know of is the Tartan 33. Its fractionally rigged.. A couple of 1980s Ericsons had fractional rigs, too. Many JBoats had fractional rigs but you probably know that already.

The Albin Cumulus is one of my favorites. There are a number under 10 grand now! They are so little known that nobody buys them so the prices plummet. It doesn't help that they are a bit unusual, different than most sailboats. They are worth 20 grand or so in Europe. SA/D ratios on that boat is a tad low for my tastes, though.

- Case
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Case »

Just looked at the Albin Cumulus in the spreadsheets. The designer name was missing.

The designer was Peter Norlin. He designed many sailboats for the Scandinavian market. Was head designer for Baltic or Sweden Yachts (cannot remember which) for a while. Bob Perry in other forums had high opinions about him, he actually happens to own a Albin Stratus (name might be wrong) which is a slightly smaller sistership to the Cumulus, about 26 feet. Fractionally rigged, too. SA/D was low on that boat, same as the Cumulus but Bob Perry said that it still moved well enough. Helm were very well balanced. I've seen YouTube videos of a Cumulus sailing and the balance was spot on, sailed itself with no hands on the tiller. It seems to me that sailboats with forestays that doesn't quite reach the bow tend to have excellent helm balance.

Norlin also designed the tiny 2.4 metre sailboat which is popular in some areas.

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by hebert01 »

Now you've got me curious about the Albin Cumulus... Even though it's frac rigged, looking at Bluenose's table, the 100% jib is still 53% of the total sail area? Must be a really short boom.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Bluenose »

hebert01 wrote:BTW, I'm loving the table, Bluenose. Great info you've compiled here, and a good family of boats. I'm a data junkie too. Do you happen to still have the XLS file? If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd like to add a few of my favorite boats to this comparative list.

Thanks!
No problem. Just PM me your email address and I will send it right out.
Case wrote:.....Fractionally rigged, too. SA/D was low on that boat, same as the Cumulus but Bob Perry said that it still moved well enough.....- Case
Unfortunately far too many boats only move "well enough" in light air. Hence the preponderance of motor sailing.

Peter is over in Friday Harbor with the Vega rendezvous otherwise we would probably get an informative Albin history lesson.

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Case »

hebert01 wrote:Now you've got me curious about the Albin Cumulus... Even though it's frac rigged, looking at Bluenose's table, the 100% jib is still 53% of the total sail area? Must be a really short boom.
Yes, the boom is pretty short. 10 feet I think. That's not much for a 28 foot sailboat. My Sea Sprite 23 has a.. 11 foot boom... But the main is actually very tall, very high aspect ratio. I've seen pics of the Cumulus move along with the main alone in what looks like light airs so clearly its enough sail area. Having a tall rig and an efficent underbody can offset the lack of sail area sometimes.

Still, its a weak point in my opinion. It is one of the things I don't like about it. All boats are a compromise, you know. If you dislike the sail area arrangement for the Albin Cumulus, you will not like the arrangement for the Sea Sprite 27/28 and 30 - the mainsail on these is on the small side. Under 15 knots windspeed, I routinely beat a local Sea Sprite 30 with Fizz, my Sea Sprite 23.

- Case
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Rachel »

The Chesapeake 32 has always been a favorite of mine, and I've always thought the design was for a masthead rig. I wonder if the fractional rig(s) you saw were retrofits?

Image

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Tim »

Rachel wrote:The Chesapeake 32 has always been a favorite of mine, and I've always thought the design was for a masthead rig. I wonder if the fractional rig(s) you saw were retrofits?
At least one Chesapeake 32 was rerigged during a restoration as a fractional. It looks like a good sail plan for the boat to my eye, and more attractive than the original stubby masthead.

Image
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Oscar »

Comparing that picture to the drawing, I'd say they lengthened the mast, got a new high aspect main, and left the headstay and jib the same.....

I have a fractional rig......Image I know, I don't meet the general definition of classic plastic. Although, within my "genre" the DF25 is the first European boat that got it right, and is a classic in it's own world.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Bluenose »

Case wrote:.....If you love the look of classic long overhangs and the like, go for wooden sailboats built just before fiberglass became king. Fractional rigs were more common.- Case
I would say you have another option. Find a plastic classic you really, really love and perform a rig-ectomy. For sure it would be spendy to replace the whole rig but maybe in the same order of magnitude as a repower or similar to some boats electronics system cost. I don't know for sure. Perhaps one could find a used rig off another older plastic classic.

I wonder if you could cure some of the excessive weather helm found in some of these older boats by going with a higher aspect ratio mainsail and moving the center of effort forward. In addition maybe you could increase the sail area of the working sail plan to get rid of the darn 150% overlapping genoa. Seems to me that the potential exists to create a very delightful boat to sail.

In any event it would be far, far less costly than maintaining a wooded boat of a similar size.

Just my two cents.

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Case »

Bluenose wrote:
Case wrote:.....If you love the look of classic long overhangs and the like, go for wooden sailboats built just before fiberglass became king. Fractional rigs were more common.- Case
I would say you have another option. Find a plastic classic you really, really love and perform a rig-ectomy. For sure it would be spendy to replace the whole rig but maybe in the same order of magnitude as a repower or similar to some boats electronics system cost. I don't know for sure. Perhaps one could find a used rig off another older plastic classic.

I wonder if you could cure some of the excessive weather helm found in some of these older boats by going with a higher aspect ratio mainsail and moving the center of effort forward. In addition maybe you could increase the sail area of the working sail plan to get rid of the darn 150% overlapping genoa. Seems to me that the potential exists to create a very delightful boat to sail.

In any event it would be far, far less costly than maintaining a wooded boat of a similar size.

Just my two cents.

Cheers, Bill
I did think about this. But have you really priced out the costs of a new mast? Its often more than what the boat is worth, especially for plastic classics built during the 1960s. Its horrifyingly expensive - expensive enough that I would be better off getting a say... J/30. Wouldn't cost much more...

Used masts certainly would be a better choice but to be honest, I haven't come across that many masts for sale so perhaps I should look more carefully. Most masts I found tend to be for smaller boats or for larger masthead rigged sailboats (really heavy). Nothing that quite fit what I need.

Bob Perry talked about this in Sailing Anarchy. He said that it was doable but not a great idea cost-wise. As one certain forumite said, "Damn, everything is connected!". That applies to changing the rig on a sailboat, its often more involved than you think.

I have to dig in my picture files. I keep thinking that I did see an old picture of a Chesapeake 32 with a fractional rig. Its possible that my mind is playing tricks on me, though.

- Case
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Chris Campbell »

I messed around with the idea of making my Yankee fractionally rigged for a bit, for all the reasons that are given here - big main/small jib is easier to manage, frac rigged main gives you a way to depower without reefing, needing a Lewmar 43 primary winch on a 30' boat seems ridiculous... But I didn't go ahead for a two big reasons and any number of smaller ones.

In order to do it while keeping the boat balanced, the mast would have to be moved forward. This entails moving the partners (if you happen to be recoring the deck this is relatively easy) and the chainplates (not so easy, especially when you think of how Yankee over-engineered the chainplates). It affects the layout down below, since the mast comes through further forward (for deck stepped you need a support post/beam in a new location). It also requires a yacht designer - or a skilled (and confident) amateur to do the math and make sure that the new CE is in the same place as the old, otherwise you might take a perfectly nice boat to sail and turn it into a weather-helm nightmare.

It also requires a taller mast, since just adding sail area with a longer boom isn't nearly so effective. Winds are better the higher up you get, and the leading edge of the sail is where the majority of the drive comes from - at least while the sail is acting like a foil - downwind you get some more use out of the back of the sail - but you also get wicked weather helm with a great long boom in big air, and a greater chance of dipping it in the drink and overloading it. Taller mast means rigging changes, probably - or at least a thorough rethink. If you can get one from another boat it might be reasonable since the rigging would already be thought through, and you could mimic it on your boat. But that gets you back to chainplate rework, which I wasn't up for.

I did consider just sticking with my current mast (which is actually a pretty lengthy spar, at 45' from the foot to head, 35' from boom to head) and going with a longer boom, moving the rig forward about 12", and bringing the boom back from 10' to 14' or so. But even that subtle change in the location of the mast means that either the chainplates are useless except for aft lowers (the Yankee has single lowers and a babystay when stock) or you've switched to swept back spreaders and shrouds that lead aft. Of course that could be good, might eliminate the need for running backs, look at Hunter with their Dynarig (did I actually say "look at Hunter"?) There are boats with permanently fixed running backs that go from the cap to the aft lower chainplate location, which is apparently enough. That does, of course, negatively impact your ability to run with your main out further, and increases chafe.

Wait! Someone already said "damn that it's all connected"! I could have saved myself the typing time.

Anyway - my main reasons for not doing it were that I didn't feel like I could afford to pay S&S to rework the rig, and I didn't want to mess with the chainplate locations. Oh - and I think I can get by with my existing sails for a season or two, to try to recover from some of the other boat costs I'm incurring at the moment...

Sorry for the ramble, started small and got carried away.

Cheers,

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Case »

I think it was Mike who said "Damn, its all connected". He does not post much of late but was pretty active a few years ago. Everything is truly connected, often in ways not obvious at first...

For a masthead rigged boat, I think that making the mast a few feet taller will not change the CE too much, as long you keep using the same boom. The boat will be more tender but that comes with the territory. The Yankee 30 may be a better candidate than most for a taller mast because I did research the Yankee 30 and they come in different rig heights. The fastest Yankees had the tallest masts with the shortest booms, I think. The Tartan 30 was done the same way - the competition version had a taller mast and a shorter boom, mast was in the same place.

But from a cost-effectiveness point of view, better to live with a larger overlapping genoa. Many boats are better balanced with a genoa then a jib so consider that fact. It does depend on the boat itself. For the Yankee 30, if you use a taller mast and keep the same boom, I suspect the balance may actually improve since the CE is moved forward slightly more due to the larger headsail. One other possibility is to add a small bowsprit. With a bowsprit, you might have to change the length a few times to dial in the helm perfectly...

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Tim »

It's not healthy to begin to suggest here that randomly changing the rig size and configuration on any boat is something that the average project-doer ought to be considering. Forget the cost; it's not about that.

I believe it is not smart to consider making a rig change without consulting a naval architect/designer to re-engineer the rig loads on the boat, and to determine what effect the proposed change would have on the boat's stability, performance, and righting moment. It's important to make that clear in this discussion.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Bluenose »

Tim wrote:It's not healthy to begin to suggest here that randomly changing the rig size and configuration on any boat is something that the average project-doer ought to be considering. Forget the cost; it's not about that.

I believe it is not smart to consider making a rig change without consulting a naval architect/designer to re-engineer the rig loads on the boat, and to determine what effect the proposed change would have on the boat's stability, performance, and righting moment. It's important to make that clear in this discussion.
It was not my intention to promote "random" rig changes. I spent a few hours roughing this out as a "proof of concept" idea and only really posted the highlights of my inspection. I completely agree that this type of change should only be done with a firm understanding of the issues or the hand holding of a qualified professional.

In reflection, I could have written my post more clearly to reflect the details and challenges that would accompany this type of change. In its current state my post doesn't really add anything to the topic so I have remove it.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Noah »

My Swede 55 is frac rigged, with either a masthead or fractional spinnaker. Above 10 knots the 100% jib is fine. Under that you want more sail area - for racing a 155% is the ticket. With the 100% we are looking at a sail area to displacement of 20.2 or so. With a 155% you get up to 24.9, which is great. I really like the flexibility (pun intended) of the frac rig - though swept spreaders would be nice. I'm not sure if you consider my Swede classic plastic or not.

One of the reasons many cruising boats don't have fractional rigs is the need for running backstays (or at least checkstays) to control the mast. Most cruisers don't want to deal with them.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Bluenose »

Noah wrote:My Swede 55 is frac rigged, with either a masthead or fractional spinnaker. Above 10 knots the 100% jib is fine. Under that you want more sail area - for racing a 155% is the ticket. With the 100% we are looking at a sail area to displacement of 20.2 or so. With a 155% you get up to 24.9, which is great. I really like the flexibility (pun intended) of the frac rig - though swept spreaders would be nice. I'm not sure if you consider my Swede classic plastic or not.

One of the reasons many cruising boats don't have fractional rigs is the need for running backstays (or at least checkstays) to control the mast. Most cruisers don't want to deal with them.
Noah,

Thanks for the info on your Swede. Although I must say without a picture of her I am not sure I know what you mean by fractional rig. And when you say 155% jib do you have a picture of what that looks like on your Swede? It has been far too long since we have had a photo?

Seriously though, your Swede has the same SA/D ratio as Bolero and my experiences with respect to wind range is similar. I am still trying to decide what to do about really light air conditions. Currently the lack of choices when the wind is between roughly 2 and 8 kts (especially downwind) limits my range. Hopefully I will decide on something this winter and have it ready for next season.

My understanding is that many modern fractional rigged boats have been designed so they they don't need running backstays or checkstays. I know the Shields doesn't use them.

Cheers, Bill
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Stubrow »

Right. But there were some. A few that come to mind that I didn't see on the chart, (or maybe I missed them). There's the Graves Constellation. 30'. First built in '64. On the west coast there was the Lapworth desiged Endeavor class - 26'. first built at about the same time. These weren't built in HUGE numbers, but they are around. Moving progressively toward the more obscure end of the scale would be the S&S designed Knickerbocker. And then there was the Tripp Jr. designed Resolute. If you find one of these, let me know.
These were more open cockpit, day racing type boats, but they were first built in plastic, they are certainly 'classic', and all have fractional rigs.
Although all these boats were originally equiped with aluminum spars, given the extrusions available at the time, in order to avoid running backstays, a fractionally rigged boat usually required jumper struts. Thus, a more complicated and expensive rig.
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Case wrote:There aren't many fractionally rigged plastic classics. I know for sure because I looked. Exhaustively. Very few were built. The reason is because when the plastic classics started to be built, short masthead rigs was the rage due to the racing rules popular at the time.

Only 2 plastic classics over 30 feet that I know of that had factory fractional rigs were the Chesapeake 32 and the Rhodes Bounty (40 footer therebouts). And those two, most were actually masthead rigged. Only a few were fractionally rigged straight from the factory. That's about all I know of, there's NO other plastic classics I know of that had fractional rigs. Between 23 feet and 30 feet, there's a few racers like the Shields and the like. And a certain cruiser called the Triton. That's about it!

The Triton was built during the twilight of the tall fractional rig era during its time. Look at plastic classics designed after the Triton and you can see what I mean. There are very few fractional rig plastic classics once you go past 24 feet or so. Only recently have fractional rigs returned on larger boats today. Even today, many people often think fractional rigs as being not "proper" for larger boats! That's a silly thing because smaller headsails are easier to handle than large headsails...

If you love the look of classic long overhangs and the like, go for wooden sailboats built just before fiberglass became king. Fractional rigs were more common.

Sorry to tell you the bad news. The fractional rigged plastic classic pickings are awfully thin. This is one reason why if I were to go for a larger sailboat, it likely won't be a plastic classic.

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by EKE »

hebert01 wrote: To the list, I'll add the Sea Sprite family of boats. Not the Alberg SS23...
I thought that the SS23 was fractional, so I did a search. Sho nuff:

Image

Looks like about 7/8.
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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by Bluenose »

That photo is just about my ideal of sailing. Brisk wind, small lapper of of jib,a reef in the main and a smartly moving boat. Hardly looks like any effort at all. Just pure joy.

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Re: Listing of Fractionally-Rigged Boats?

Post by hebert01 »

EKE-

Sorry for the confusion in my message. When I said "not the SS23", I meant that when one mentions "Sea Sprite", most would think of the frac-rigged SS23, and I also wanted to make mention of the larger cruising models. I should've made it more clear that the SS23 is also fractional riggged.

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