Joy of Windvanes

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:23 am

Here is a short YouTube clip of my trip back from the boatyard, letting 'Vik have the helm :-)

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:07 am

I want one!! Great video, seems it works just fine.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:06 am

That is sweet. I would love one except I can't bear having something so hideous looking hanging off the transom of the boat. I know, how shallow to let aesthetics prevent me from having something so handy but that is why I own a 40 year old boat rather than a 10 or 20 year old boat.

Enjoy, it makes single handing so much easier. Meanwhile I will be sitting at home waiting for the powers that be to design one that looks good hanging off the back end of a classic plastic.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:32 am

Love it. Function is its own form of beauty.

Makes me want to take my own brand new Monitor out of the box in the basement (where it is getting used as an auxiliarly storage bench) and get it installed this spring :-)

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:44 am

Dennis,

You might consider a Cape Horn vane with the internal quadrant. Not only is it sleek, but the workings are more protected (the external quadrant can be like a magnet for passing boats and dinghies in harbor).

Here's on on an Alberg 30, which is not too dissimilar to your Luders 33:

Pretty clean in the cockpit, too:

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:46 am

LazyGuy wrote:I would love one except I can't bear having something so hideous looking hanging off the transom of the boat. I know, how shallow to let aesthetics prevent me from having something so handy but that is why I own a 40 year old boat rather than a 10 or 20 year old boat.

'Sin Tacha' turned 38 this year, so is no spring chicken. I've seen so many Vegas with Navik vanes on that when I see one without, it looks naked!
The vane rates right up there with the dodger and cabin heater on my list "necessities" :-)

Rachel, that Cape Horn is a beautiful installation! I understand it was designed for an Alberg 30, so fits the Alberg series of boats very well.

Post by **Tim** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:03 pm

bcooke wrote:Makes me want to take my own brand new Monitor out of the box in the basement (where it is getting used as an auxiliarly storage bench) and get it installed this spring :-)

Get on it, mistah! You have some spare time, don't you? ;<P

I have never sailed on a boat with a windvane and am anxious to experience it someday.

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:56 pm

Below decks linear drive is the answer to the aesthetics. Of course now you need more juice......

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:36 pm

LazyGuy wrote:That is sweet. I would love one except I can't bear having something so hideous looking hanging off the transom of the boat. I know, how shallow to let aesthetics prevent me from having something so handy but that is why I own a 40 year old boat rather than a 10 or 20 year old boat.

Self steering is an age old technique. Its classic actually. Seeing a vane is definitely not and aesthetic negative in my mind. Seeing a boat under sail with the vane in operation is down right beautiful. Now seeing one of those high tech roll cages with 20 antennae and gadgets, that bothers me.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:24 pm

I have never sailed on a boat with a windvane and am anxious to experience it someday.

You know where my boat is. I can leave the box of parts under the bow waiting for your expert installation skills.

Just don't screw it up. :-P

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:01 pm

In my own defense, I am an engineer and having sailed two different boats with wind vane steering, I agree it is beauty in its simplicity and the marvel of how it works. It is also nice to sit there for hours and not have to touch a thing. I just think that aesthetically it hurts the boat. This is no different than my old Sea Sprite with the outboard in the well. That was the only place for it. To see an Alberg or Luders or other classic boat with graceful sheer and low freeboard with an outboard hanging off the back makes me cringe.

Add to this that I have no intention of going "off shore" I really don't have a need. A powered tiller pilot will suffice and that does not hang off the transom.

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:31 pm

LazyGuy wrote:That is sweet. I would love one except I can't bear having something so hideous looking hanging off the transom of the boat. I know, how shallow to let aesthetics prevent me from having something so handy but that is why I own a 40 year old boat rather than a 10 or 20 year old boat.

Enjoy, it makes single handing so much easier. Meanwhile I will be sitting at home waiting for the powers that be to design one that looks good hanging off the back end of a classic plastic.

I completely agree with you on this. That said, I always thought that the Wind Pilot Pacific Light design looked pretty reasonable.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:39 pm

Page down about 16 posts and you'll find my previous whine on the subject. I swear I'll get mine to behave! Or me...

I agree with 'lazyguy'; I don't like all that ironmongery hanging off the stern. Not beautiful. Not light weight. Vulnerable to mishap. Catches my person as I work on the brightwork. In the way of having 'Philadelphia' instead of 'Boston' painted on the transom.

C'mon 'bcooke'; that's something like $4k worth of boaty toys begging to be played with!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:07 am

Oscar wrote:Below decks linear drive is the answer to the aesthetics. Of course now you need more juice......

Actually, you don't need any juice to power a windvane. The wind does it all by itself :)

I can't imagine comparing the look of a windvane to the look of an outboard on the transom, and I even like outboards. To me a windvane is like a sail; quiet and efficient. An outboard is internal combustion, and more of a necessary accessory that you just put up with.

But it's all personal :)

(I do like the look of the Cape Horn much better than the Monitor; but I've sailed quite a bit with both of them, and they're both great to use. I just love a boat that's sailing along quietly under windvane while I'm reading a book or making a curry :D

Rachel

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:56 am

LazyGuy wrote:Add to this that I have no intention of going "off shore" I really don't have a need.

This is a common misconception. Wind vanes are not just for going offshore. I put mine on as soon as I get out of the bay, unless I'm just messing about and want to hand steer.

Sailing with a vane is far more efficient than a powered autopilot, not just because it draws no current, but because it keeps you at a constant angle to the wind and obviates the need to constantly trim sails.

When beating to windward you get the most 'bang for the buck' because the boat remains as close to the wind as possible, and adjusts to every subtle change. Tell-tails indicate the sails are always in perfect trim.

To tack, you simply twist the vane head around to the other tack, let the main look after itself, and tend the jib sheets. The boat comes about in a controlled manner without losing power, and proceeds on the other tack.

When sailing in gusty conditions the vane allows the boat to round-up for a gust, spilling wind from the sails, then resumes on course as normal.

A vane also teaches one how to better balance one's sail plan to suit weather conditions. I've run downwind in light air, wing-on-wing, for hours without touching the helm. This gives me far more time to enjoy cookies and hot chocolate :-)

The Navik, now discontinued, only weighs 30 lbs. My other favorite, the Pacific Windpilot Light, weighs 28 lbs, both pretty moderate for a small cruiser.

All that aside, there's something magical about watching a boat sail with a vane. It's a hypnotic dance between boat and wind and wave, each moving to it's own rhythm, yet all in concert with each other.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:36 am

C'mon 'bcooke'; that's something like $4k worth of boaty toys begging to be played with!

Yep. Currently the most expensive storage table in the county. Its on the list. The very very long list.

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:34 pm

I bought a CAPE HORN windvane long before I plan on finishing my project because I got such a good deal on it through a group buy. So I too have a $4K toy that I only spent $2.6K on that is sitting quietly waiting for me to finish the boat so I can use it. I will carry no other autopilots (not a big fan of electronics onboard). I also bought the larger backup emergency steering oar option designed with more surface area to act as a back up rudder as well. I couldn't imagine sailing without one.

Seeing a vane is definitely not and aesthetic negative in my mind. Seeing a boat under sail with the vane in operation is down right beautiful. Now seeing one of those high tech roll cages with 20 antennae and gadgets, that bothers me.

I TOTALLY agree. It belongs on the boat.

One Way David · Post by **One Way David** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:03 am

Thats a cool video. Not being a sailor, just getting into this, I figure you should get an educationl deduction from this years taxes on that one;)

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:13 am

Actually, you don't need any juice to power a windvane. The wind does it all by itself :)

I was referring to an electric drive. I did my homework on vanes and although I appreciate their merits they also have their shortcomings and I decided on a hydraulic/electric on LKIII.

I have no experience with vanes, but I have sailed thousands of miles with an autopilot, many of them solo. It's a must. The ability to keep the boat going, whether holding a course or a relative wind angle, so that you can trim, take care of minor, or especially major, mechanical inconveniences. or take care of yourself (eat, sleep, clean, etc.) is crucial.

And this goes for 200 miles off shore as well as 100 feet.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:11 pm

I have a different opinion: For me, sailing offshore, a windvane falls into the "must" category, and the autopilot is a "really nice to have" (for powering in calms or while motoring), but not an essential.

I thought you meant that the pilot you recommended took more juice than either a different pilot or a windvane, so I was just noting that a windvane takes no electrical power.

Actually, one can oftentimes hook up a smallish electrical tillerpilot to the windvane and thus get away with a much smaller, much less "thirsty" pilot than would otherwise be needed for a given boat.

Edited to amend: I'm speaking of the smaller boats that people here typically sail. I have sailed offshore on larger boats with generators that made conserving power less of a concern. I would still prefer a windvane on those boats, but sometimes it's not possible (they are too large), and it's not quite as critical since they can generate plenty of power for the autopilot (as long as all is working well in the charging department...) Also there is (more) crew if you have to hand steer.

Rachel

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:51 pm

Actually, one can oftentimes hook up a smallish electrical tillerpilot to the windvane and thus get away with a much smaller, much less "thirsty" pilot than would otherwise be needed for a given boat.

Interesting!

LKIII was a 1989 Catalina 42 that I took round trip between Chez and Lauterdale three times, outside, thee legs solo.

I had a 4200 lb hydraulic ram on a separate Edson tiller arm on the rudder shaft. A raymarine wheel pilot, ST4000, as a backup Three battery banks, (250, 800 and 1000 Ah) Dual battery chargers, inverters, the engine and a Honda2000eu..... So multiple layers of redundancy there. It worked very, very well.

And, somewhere I prefer to be woken up by a rig out of trim because the wind direction changed, than the boat politely following the wind and going the wrong way....

Of course the GPS would start screaming in that case.....

The main reason I did not go with the vane was exactly as you stated.....motoring and light air, (down wind heavy seas as well).

But I like the small tiller pilot on the vane idea......

LKIV (see avatar) came with a small tiller pilot, but as tri's have a lot less helm forces I suspect that will be adequate.....haven't used it yet.....still sanding.....

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:19 pm

I haven't used the tillerpilot-mounted-to-windvane myself, but that's only because the boat already had a separate tillerpilot, and we used it so seldom that we didn't want to re-engineer it.

The Cape Horn integrated model is tailor-made to put a small tillerpilot on, belowdecks. This photo shows the connection in the lazarette:

Here's the outer portion. The quadrant you see in the photo above is in the lazarette, on the other end of the tube that penetrates the transom.

The Cape Horn I used was an external mount because the boat was a double-ender with a boomkin. So it looked more like this one:

I've also seen people make their own adapter brackets to mount a small tillerpilot to a Monitor head. Here's a photo that shows that on some friends' Shearwater 39 (sorry the photo is small). It was engineered while out cruising, so not fabricated exactly as you might with machine shops available:

In my experience, both the Monitor and the Cape Horn worked well in light airs and also downwind (sailing) and amazingly well in even large following or quartering seas -- to the point where every swell made me think "Oh surely the vane is going to lose it now" -- but after a while you realize that it can steer better than you can (or I can, anyway) in those conditions.

But then I'm an unabashed fan of them :)

Rachel

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:09 pm

I REALLY like the Cape Horn setup with the tiller pilot on the tube! The beauty of that is that if you go on a REALLY serious journey you can have a spare and swap out in minutes....

after a while you realize that it can steer better than you can

I know that feeling. Had that with mine several times. (at night following seas) I had a NAVMAN and in addition to the compass it had a rate gyro and would "learn" the motion.

kabauze · Post by **kabauze** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:58 am

Great video. Thanks for sharing, Peter.

I think I recognize that knotmeter!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:03 am

I think I recognize that knotmeter!

It's working great, thanks!

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:44 am

I did an Atlantic crossing with a Wind Pilot and it was a beautiful thing-- not to mention useful since hand steering for 2600+ miles is no fun. That said, you must be mindful of how your boat sails when the sails are balanced. If the rig and sails aren't balanced, it will quickly over power any windvane and you will be back to hand steering. On our trip, the 42 foot boat could easily do 6 - 7 knots with the kind of wind we had. Unfortunately, to keep the sails balanced in the conditions we encountered, the boat never did more than 4 knots. It was a long trip.

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