Anchor sail

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BALANCE
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Anchor sail

Post by BALANCE »

Any one have any experience with these? I guess, because of displacement and/or being a double ender, Balance tends to sachet at the mooring or anchor. The more wind the more she likes to move.

I've googled myself to death. They are expensive and I can't quite figure out if size matters (or if it's just an excuse to charge more).
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Post by David »

It shouldn't take much of a sail--50 or so square feet would do I think. You could experiment with a cheap tarp from Lowes. Cut it diagonally, rig it to your back stay and see how your boat behaves.
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Post by Case »

The formal name for an anchor sail is "Riding Sail".

Try googling that. There are several companies who make riding sails. Sailrite has kits costing $ 100 or less for riding sails for example.

- Case
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Post by Ric in Richmond »

I've been thinking about the same thing.

Was tempted to buy one of these.

http://www.tarpsonline.com/white.asp

Likely a 6 x 10.

Cut it into 2 6x5's

Pull one corner up the backstay with a halyard. Pull one corner to the deck and then tie the two sides out to the rails.

BTW these white tarps in odd length x width combos make VERY effective boom tents and don't make everyone look funny (blue/ green/ etc ) when you are under them.

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Rachel
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Post by Rachel »

Nanette,

Just curious what you're using for anchoring gear. The reason I ask is that the W-32 I cruised on was very stable at anchor. We never even considered a riding sail, and we spent virtually all of our non-moving time at anchor (but only about two weeks on a mooring - you say your boat "dances" at both though?). In gusty weather we would see other (lighter) boats moving around quite a bit more than we did.

Of course that's not to say that you shouldn't get a riding sail if you want one; I just wanted to mention that dancing at anchor might not be a "given" on a W-32.

Rode might make a difference. We used an all chain-rode and then a 50' 3-strand nylon snubber. We ran the snubber out along with the rode and through a block on the cranse iron (the fitting at the end of the bowsprit, which already had formed eye to attach the block).

We attached the snubber to the rode with a rolling hitch, and then would typically only veer about 20' the snubber. This meant that if we woke up in the night and thought "Gee, a bit more rode out would be nice," we could let out another 25' or so without having to bring in the whole thing to re-set the snubber.

We had previously detached the bobstay and slid a piece of white sanitation hose over it (the smallest diameter that would fit over the swaged fitting). This kept any "chain grumbling" to a minimum.

As a side note, we originally led our snubber out from the lower bobstay attachment, reasoning that this would give a better angle of pull on the rode. Then we read in one of the Pardey's books (and they know their bowsprits) that they got a much better ride at anchor by running the snubber from the end of the bowsprit. We tested both set-ups in a really bouncy anchorage in San Diego, and had to agree that the sprit lead was nicer. It also has the advantage that if you need to ditch, or suddenly veer out much more chain, you can simply let the snubber go (as it's cleated on deck), vs. having to bring in 20 feet of rode to get to the snubber to unfasten or cut it (since you can't reach the lower bobstay fitting from on that boat).

The Pardeys do say that you should not use this set up with very large waves in the anchorage (due to strain on the rig when you fetch up), but this is usually not a surprise issue, as most anchorages are sheltered from large waves (if not wind). And of course you can use an alternate snubber arrangement in those anchorages. We never found ourselves in any anchorages with waves large enough to strain the rig.

Okay, I've gone past riding sail, haven't I? As long as I'm at it (and I guess the subject is -- in a way -- comfort at anchor, I'll just mention that we also found a flopper-stopper to be quite nice in rolly anchorages.

Stopping now!

Rachel
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Post by BALANCE »

Well, truth be told, I've yet to be at anchor. This year will be a different story. I have 250 (275?) feet of chain - a half barrel. I've read the Pardy books too, my recollection was that they used a fitting at the bottom of the sprit's bobstay. As you know, WS's have an extra hole down there but my gut just did not like that idea. The end of the sprit is an option...I guess. For a snubber I have a yet to be used big black rubber one, I've yet to rig it with the proper line. Remember, I unfortunately do not have any samson posts, just cleats on the bulwarks forward of the hawse holes. Rachel you've actually addressed about three questions/issues I've been trying to solve since last summer. I'm guessing from one of your statements that even with the snubber you still got some 'chain grind' on the bobystay or even the one of the other two? (proper term escapes me right now - whisker stay?). If I understand you correctly, you had the hose or pipe on the bobstay but later ixnayed it? I've been resisting that idea for no better reason than it is just plain ugly not to mention lacking salt. I've seen PVC on all three on some boats. Yuck. Needless to say, your comments prompt even more questions from me. I'm going to wear you out girl! My understanding from other WS'ers is that their boats are pretty antsy at anchor as well. I know mine is at the mooring as well as the hobby horse tendency if there is a chop. (Not a well protected harbor - the mooring field).

Riding sail or anchor sail both bring the same results. Sailrite has the least expensive and of course, the kits, even cheaper. I don't have the artillery to put it together (sewing machine). That would entail yet another boat unit. And then there is the decision as to what size. Because of the full keel, heavy displacement and more than average windage, I'm wondering if I should err to the larger size.

Keep it coming - and thanks all for responses so far.
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Post by Rachel »

BALANCE wrote:I've read the Pardy books too, my recollection was that they used a fitting at the bottom of the sprit's bobstay.
I'm pretty sure they use the end of the sprit instead. Not that everyone has to do it like they do.
BALANCE wrote: For a snubber I have a yet to be used big black rubber one, I've yet to rig it with the proper line.
I've never used one of those at anchor - at anchor I think I'd lean towards the long, stretchy line instead without the rubber snubber (well obviously, since that's what I chose ;).
BALANCE wrote: Remember, I unfortunately do not have any samson posts, just cleats on the bulwarks forward of the hawse holes.
Oh, okay. I didn't remember that. Are they mounted on the inside fiberglass surface of the bulwarks? If so (and if you haven't already), you might want to check how they're mounted. We had a couple of (supposedly) stout eyes that were mounted that way and it turned out they were not properly attached or backed up (don't ask how we found out...)
BALANCE wrote: I'm guessing from one of your statements that even with the snubber you still got some 'chain grind' on the bobystay or even the one of the other two? (proper term escapes me right now - whisker stay?). If I understand you correctly, you had the hose or pipe on the bobstay but later ixnayed it?
We didn't get regular heavy duty grinding, as the chain is slack at that point due to the snubber (chain just hangs down in a loop). But it would touch occasionally, and that sound really telegraphs into the boat. And it would rub sometimes, such as with a wind-against-tide situation. We were really happy with the hose on the bobstay, so we never nixed it.
BALANCE wrote: I've been resisting that idea for no better reason than it is just plain ugly not to mention lacking salt.
I thought ours was reasonably unobtrusive, although you could tell it was there. The boats in general are salty enough that I never really felt it was "un-salty." I don't have close-up photos on this computer, but here are a couple of more distant ones to give you the general idea. I'll try to remember to upload some others from my laptop when I get a chance - I think I might have a close-up of the snubber set-up, and I know I have closer one of the boat.

Here is one at a bit of a distance; but it gives you a look at the hose over the bobstay:

Image

Here is one of a Kendall 32 (same hull) that belongs to some friends. I (crudely - sorry!) drew the snubber in red and the anchor rode in yellow, so you can see how the rode tends to be slack (part of it underwater). Actually, weren't quite like this at this particular anchorage because it has a severe wind-against-tide habit, and the rodes were not acting "normal." You can see how it's pulling the bow down. But I drew them in more how they would normally be. The (yellow) chain rode is usually pretty slack, and the snubber, which is tight, doesn't contact the bobstay due to being out on the end.

The one difference in their setup is that they run the snubber from the block at the end of the bowsprit out to the side and then back in through a hawse hole (we ran ours from the same block but back through the anchor roller).
Image
BALANCE wrote: My understanding from other WS'ers is that their boats are pretty antsy at anchor as well. I know mine is at the mooring as well as the hobby horse tendency if there is a chop. (Not a well protected harbor - the mooring field).
Maybe the fact that we were loaded down for cruising made a difference. And true, some mooring fields are pretty open; not necessarily the sort of anchorage one would choose out on the move with no local knowledge (and hopefully other options).

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Post by Ric in Richmond »

Looking at the pick above.

All that windage of sail up on the foredeck can't help but move the CE forward which will make you veer.

Not sure what you could do about it. Maybe getting it covered and closer to the deck?

Ric
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Post by bcooke »

Rachel- :-)
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Post by Rachel »

Hi Ric,

The second boat with all the sail on the foredeck belongs to friends of ours. In the photo they had just arrived in Key West at 4 a.m. after sailing direct from Honduras, so they hadn't neatened up yet (I think they were still sleeping it off). I believe that normally they used a hanked-on jib bag (but good point about foredeck windage).

The anchorage at Key West is one of the worst I've been in for wind-against-tide situations. Always weird to look down and see your anchor rode passing you as it veers astern.

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Post by BALANCE »

The picture of the Kendall undersail has an inset? Some need their socks darned!
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Post by Rachel »

Might be a little hard to make out, but the photo of the boat under sail is a Westsail 32 (I'm behind the socks). We were sailing north from Key West and our friends on the Kendall that I showed (anchored photo) were taking photos of us. Finally we could see what we looked like under sail :)

And if you squint a little, you can see the aforementioned white hose on the bobstay. Subjective, but I didn't think it looked all that bad.

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Post by Robert The Gray »

I made both my mizzen and my mizzen staysail with an inexpensive home sewing machine. It worked great for the dacron but the foot didn't feed the slippery ripstop nylon as well. Just saying do not let the lack of a $400 sewing machine stop you from making a simple riding sail. I was able to go through six layers of fabric at the tack head and clew. I used hand sewing to finish it all up.

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BALANCE
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by BALANCE »

Just getting back to this issue now (as I splash on Friday). And Rachel, question...what size 3 strand nylon did you use. And here's a stupid question for ya...does this line go inside the link when attaching? If the answer is yes, than the size, by that I mean thickness, is moot.
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Oscar »

BTW these white tarps in odd length x width combos make VERY effective boom tents and don't make everyone look funny (blue/ green/ etc ) when you are under them.
VERY NICE! Thanks..... now I can put off sewing the proper thing until next year.... oops, sorry, we were talking about anchoring.
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

Splash on Friday --- great!

As for the snubber line, I can't remember for sure, but "1/2" nylon three-strand" popped into my head when I was thinking about it. I like 50 feet or more so that you can have a good bit in reserve for those midnight times you want to veer a bit more chain (and you don't have to mess with the chain hook or rolling hitch in most situations but can just let some more of both rode and snubber out together and re-cleat) I'm not sure what you mean about "goes inside the link" though. Oh, do you mean for attaching it to the rode? For that we used a rolling hitch, so it did not pass through any of the chain rode links. The boat-end was cleated off on deck.

Some folks use a metal chain hook (I have in the past but prefer the rolling hitch) so if you use one of those, the snubber line would have to be able to be spliced to it (there is a splice wherein only two strands have to pass through).

When I did use a metal chain hook, it was the typical basic type, and it came off the rode a couple of times, which put me off it. In later searching (for someone else's trawler), I found a few other metal possibilities.

1) Wichard makes one called a Chain Grip Hook, which has a "keeper" feature (not sure how durable the spring would be as I did not research it further).

Chain Grip Hook:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... id=1037211
Image
(This one would exert a twist like the traditional one below - not sure if it is an issue at all.)

2) C.S. Johnson* is now manufacturing a Captain Hook Chain Snubber (I ordered this and thought it looked nice in person but there was a problem with it so I had to send it back - I can't remember for sure now what it was, but maybe it didn't fit the BBB chain properly). A Florida company called something like "Best Imports" sells one that is the same shape but I would steer clear of them due to problems with payment/delivery - documented both by people I know personally and online reviews.

Captain Hook Chain Snubber:
http://www.csjohnson.com/marinecatalog/00043.htm#bot
(I see that Defender sells the C.S. Johnson hook as well)
Image

3) Quickline sells an Ultra Chain Grab that I ultimately ordered for the trawler. It is expensive, but seemed well made and like it might be less likely to disengage than a typical hook. Also, the straight pull aspect was good in this situation as they planned to also use one to snub the anchor when it was stowed on the roller.

Ultra Chain Grab:
http://quickline.us/ultrachainclaw.asp
Image

4) I guess I should also show what I think of as the "typical" chain hook. They are very economical. They slightly twist the chain by virtue of the way they grab, and I'm not sure if that's an issue or not. This one is made by ACCO:

Typical chain hook:
http://www.defender.com/product2.jsp?pa ... 7&id=33272
Image

As mentioned above, I still prefer a rolling hitch. No added weight, nothing to bang around, no corrosion or rust, and very unlikely to fall off. Plus, it's a piece of line useful for other purposes.

Rachel

*I have to put a plug in for the C. Sherman Johnson company of Hartford, Connecticut. It's an old family company that sells products such as standing rigging and lifeline parts. They know their stuff, and orders arrive promptly, with each type of item carefully hand-packaged, labeled, and wrapped in the Hartford Courant. They've also reintroduced some bronze rigging parts such as clevis pins and cotter pins. Decent website, too.

http://www.csjohnson.com
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by BALANCE »

Thanks Rachel. In everything I've read over the years about anchoring, there are those who have the gizmos and those that do the rolling hitch. Somethimes the gizmos failed but never did anyone say their rolling hitch failed. On Scout, we used a line with one of those rubber things, it came with the boat and we just (I think, tied a bowline). It never failed, I guess that was pure luck. So, I am not inclined to go the gizmo route.

So my next detail is to figure out what you mean by a block on the cranse iron. Mine is a stainless round cap at the end with no means of attachment of any hardware.
Last edited by BALANCE on Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

Re: the cranse iron. How does your bobstay attach? On the W-32 I was on, the bobstay attached to the cranse iron (as did the forestay, above, and the whisker stays on the sides) and that's where we put the block. I'm pretty sure there was a second hole, so that the two did not actually share the same one.

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Re: Anchor sail

Post by BALANCE »

Don't know if this depicts all that needs to be seen. It was/is pouring today in biblical proportions when I was at the boat so I did not take any pictures. These are from months ago. The two side holes you will see are fairly small but it looks like there is one forward of the forestay that might work but I can't visualize how it would hang without interfering with the end of the cranse iron - at the very least, noisy?

Image

Image

Rachel, as an aside, did the Westsail you cruised on have a taffrail log.? I have a Walker's 'Knotmaster Log' and I'm wondering where the best spot to mount it is.
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by One Way David »

Excuse me for butting in here because I have nothing to offer except a link. You may or may not be interested or you may have found it yourself. I lurk because thats how I learn. I googled whiskerstay (not knowing what that was) and found a factory build manual for the WS32. I always find it nice to have something like this for a project so thought I'd pass it on. Dave.

http://highseasdrifter.net/pdf/W32_Buil ... review.pdf

BTW it is a large PDF file. It took several sec to download on a T1 line.
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

Nanette,

I was thinking that we had used a second hole in the lower tang, but now that I look at a photo, I think we might have used a second hole in the starboard side tang to hang the block for the snubber line. I could check with my friend who owns the boat if you are going to rig up a block there, so you would know for sure.. I can say for sure that it was not attached to the upper tang - that wouldn't work.

Here's a photo that somewhat shows it (I zoomed in so much that it's a bit blurry, but at least it's something). As is probably obvious, the white line on the left is the snubber line (3-strand nylon), which is running out through the anchor roller and forward until it "turns" through a block attached to the starboard tang of the cranse iron; the anchor chain is to the right, and is running straight down from the roller (and is slack because the snubber is taking up the chain load from beneath the water line).

Image
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

Oops, forgot about your taffrail log question. Yes, we had a Walker Knotmaster III and found it to be a great log. There were matching (actually, they are not matching but are mirror images of each other) mounting plates on the caprail port and starboard. We only used the port-side one. I have a feeling that is the one most people use because when I've seen Walker logs for sale on eBay, the port side mounting plate is often missing (presumably left on the donor boat). We ran our fishing line off the starboard side, so that's why we kept the log on the port side.

Here's a photo that shows the positioning of the mount(s) on the caprail; it seemed to work out fine. The small line swooping off astern is the actual log line; the small line coming inboard is a safety line for in case the log should ever come adrift from its mount; the larger three-strand-line/block/bungie has nothing to do with the log (it was a fine-adjustment line for the wind vane).

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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Oscar »

I have a (Walker?) taffrail log in a box.....don't think I'll ever use it, if a purist is interested.....
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by BALANCE »

Rachel, thank you for the pictures. I'm surprised it's on the side hole, I wonder if your friend drilled it out to make it a bit bigger and/or added some sort of reinforcment to make it thicker. The hole on top looks much sturdier but again, I don't see how it would work. If you could check, that would be great. I'd be curious to know (specifically) the kind of block he uses - brand, size etc. I am trying to figure out a way to cleat line down at the aft end of the bow sprit. This is the best I've come up with so far in lieu of sampson posts. Tell me what you think (all), I though I could drill a hole through the side for the bronze rod, the other beast I just came upon and though it might work in this scenario.

Image

The taffrail, I know, is a bit excessive but it's how I feed the dream. I wondered how well it would work with an outboard rudder so I'm interested to learn that you never felt the need to swap sides. I have both mounts but will start with just one and see how it goes.

I did get an anchor/riding sail and today it got a good test at the mooring. I still get about 40 degrees of movement but it seems smoother and less interaction with the mooring bridle. I'm going to have to keep fiddling with it though.

Image

Oh, and One Way David, I was aware of that resource, but thank you!
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

Hi Nanette,

As I remember it the cranse iron side tang was suitably beefy. I know we didn't drill a new hole but used an existing one. I think I remember having concern about the stress on the side, but after hundreds of nights at anchor (not all smooth ones), all did seem well and there was no evidence of stress.

I don't remember the block being extra special (although it might have been a snatch block because we had it on hand), but I will check into it for you and get back to you with more detail.

On the snubber cleat: I think I would get a piece of line and check out the various leads and potential chafe points. The rod looks like it could work well if there would not be too much chafe, or, what about mounting a cleat in place of the (proposed) chock?

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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

Okay, I spoke with my cruising bud and straightened out my memory on the snubber system we used. Actually, the conversation was kind of funny considering it was something we both used every night for well over a year. "But I'm sure we had a block, and wasn't it on the starboard tang?" "Well it might have been there, but remember the shackle that.... wait, let me go look at the bow..." Etc, Etc.

So, the evolution in summary:

In the beginning, we attached the snubber at the lower end of bobstay, as is customary.

Then, we spent some time in a very rolly (and consistent) anchorage, which led us to experiment with a method the Pardeys recommended. Counter-intuitively, this involves running the snubber over the end of the bowsprit. Experimentation in the consistent-yet-rolly-pitchy anchorage showed that this was noticeably smoother so we kept it, although it did evolve (we also used a flopper stopper in that particular anchorage).

In iteration one of the end-of-bowsprit method, we attached a block to the starboard side tang of the cranse iron, and ran the long snubber line back through this block and back with the rode over the roller and to the bitts. This had the advantage I mentioned earlier, in that with a long snubber, you could use about half the length, and leave the rest piled on deck by the bitts. That allowed for a bit of midnight "Hmm, I think I'd like to let out just a bit more chain" without having to bring in the existing, veered chain to redo the rolling hitch.

What I had forgotten was that we decided we didn't like using the starboard tang on the cranse iron, and when we moved to the center tang (details to follow), we just couldn't get a good lead coming from the block back to the roller. That would be different on each boat, and if one could get a fair lead, it would still be a good way to do it, I think.

Like you, we didn't have a spare hole in the lower (center) tang, which was where we wanted to run the snubber. So what we did (and which I had forgotten when I posted earlier) was to replace the clevis pin that held the upper end of the bobstay (to the cranse iron) with a long shackle of which the pin was the proper size and strength rating (as compared to the clevis pin). So now we had a shackle that hung down from the center tang of the cranse iron, and it did not require an extra hole. The strain was no longer on the side tang, but our fair lead was compromised. So we eliminated the block and instead spliced a thimble onto the snubber line and attached that to the shackle. So that shackle was now the inboard terminus of the snubber; the outboard end continued to be attached to the chain rode with a rolling hitch.

With that we lost our midnight quick-and-easy rode extension capability, but kept the comfortable geometry of leading the snubber from the end of the bowsprit*, and had no chafe issues (we pulled in the rode/snubber and re-made the rolling hitch if we wanted to veer more chain, just like is typical).

I hope this helps. Neither of us could find a good photo of this, but let me know if I can clarify it (and if I do find a photo, I'll post it).

Rachel

*For more on this, see "Cost Conscious Cruiser," by Lin and Larry Pardey
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by BALANCE »

Wow this has had quite the evolution. I knew it wasn't as straightforward as it appeared. Don't worry about the pictures, I've got the gist. Thanks for all your efforts.
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Re: Anchor sail

Post by Rachel »

I know you said you didn't need a photo, but since I had asked for one, and it showed up in my inbox, I thought I'd post it. This is the later version with the shackle whose pin substitutes for the upper bobstay clevis pin (we made sure it was rated for the same or more load and fit properly). That's the snubber line/thimble in the shackle.

Rachel

Image
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