buying new sails

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:50 pm

The "banker" has granted me additional funds, and new sails are on my mind. I have been looking at different makers, got 4 quotes at the last boat show, but I must admit I'm confused. The local guy/loft I like is the most expensive (Neil Pryde) he measures, but then the sails are made in China. One of the sails I've been eyeing on the North Sail Outlet just sold, but we talked and a comparable custom North sail is far less expensive.

then there's the options, loose foot or shelf. Full Battens or partial, or maybe some of each. My current main has two reefs, I've never used the second, get two again?

Anyway, I'd be interested in some advice, I don't mind spending the money as long as I get a good value....

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:25 am

There are a lot of choices and options, and one thing does not fit every situation. So there are factors that I can't possibly take into account on your behalf.

In general, though, here are some thoughts:

1. Buy new, custom sails for your boat. Always. Nothing beats a good sail made just for your boat. Sails should be the most important part of any sailboat, and I am always amazed to see people skimp here, as if the sails were somehow an afterthought.

Working with a local loft ought to get you a better sail--and better service--in the long run. In fact, the loft and how you mesh with the sailmakers there are far more important than any other factor in your selction process, in my opinion.

2. I like a loose foot with four full battens. The batten question will go on and on in perpetuity, I'm sure, and frankly none of the answers are "right"; all the variables work, and work well. This choice often comes down to the individual sailmaker's preferences and skills, really. Sailmakers know what they're talking about, so don't hesitate to ask for--and follow--their recommendations.

One thing to consider with a loose foot is that you often need to rework your outhaul so that you can handle the increased strain and pressure of the unsupported foot, and more easily adjust the tension. Lacking the resistance of a bolt rope or slugs, most basic outhaul arrangements can't be adjusted under strain, so you'll need additional mechanical advantage and possibly other changes. Now is a good time to run the outhaul control line to the cockpit, maybe, for easy adjustment under sail--since, with a loose foot, you'll probably be playing with the adjustment a lot more than you used to.

3. Go with 2 reefs. Even if you only use the first, it would be a shame to be limited in your capabilities should a need for something more arise. It's easier and less expensive to build in all the various options when the sail is first built. Since you can't control what happens on the water, something like a second reef leaves you better prepared, even if you never use it. Be sure the reef points are set up properly for your boat, so that both reefs work easily and well when needed. This is often a problem at the mast end of the reef, particularly on the second reef.

4. I've heard some positive comments on Chinese-built sails, but I can't get behind this practice, even when the prices are often lower (which doesn't seem to be the case for you...interestingly). I'd like my sails to be built in the loft I visit, and by the people to whom I speak. Do we really have to outsource everything, for heaven's sake?

When a "local" loft farms out manufacture overseas, or even out of state, I am immediately turned off.

5. It's amazing how widely varied quotes on essentially the same sail can be. Go with who you think is going to treat you best in a month or a year when or if you need modifications or repairs. I try to seek places where I can begin a satisfactory and mutually beneficial long-term relationship, rather than just a whiz-bang onetime sale and moving on.

6. You get more enjoyment out of new sails than you'll ever think--even if you think you'll get a lot of enjoyment from them.

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:54 am

DELETED

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:38 am

Oh, come now Peter, that $3000 is surely "guy who's done me some favors" pricing!

Offshore factory sails are fine for a lot of people. It's a sail, it moves the boat, and that's good enough. The money saved translates to more time cruising, or more booze in the bilge, etc.
If you really care about the shape of the sail, though, you must have it done by someone local. You asked about value, and service after the sale has VALUE. If something needs a bit of a tweak, you want it tweaked correctly and with a smile.

I'll add one more virtue of a loose-foot main: you can tie the reef cringles above the boom. I've seen a sail torn when someone accidentally opened the reef clutch and all the strain came on the cringles. No thanks.
I personally feel that loose foot allows better shape in light air, but that's debatable.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:12 am

When a "local" loft farms out manufacture overseas, or even out of state, I am immediately turned off.

I agree, I was ready to write the check, until he said it would basically cost $300 extra to get the sails in 4 weeks rather than 8-10 because of shipping, I asked, "from where", China was the response. I have seen them making sails in their loft, and they have 'tuned up' my old sails too. I am willing to pay extra to keep the business local, and I thought that's what I was doing. I was actually in China 2 months ago, with my sail plans, but none of our guides could help me find a sail maker. I doubt sails made over there would be of poor quality, but outsourcing everything is the wrong path to take.

The full battens and two reef points was what I had down, so that decision is solidified. My outhaul is 'fixed' so that will need to be addressed. The Neil Pryde guy recommended a shelf foot, and his reasons seemed to make sense. Currently nothing is run to the cockpit, but if I get an outhaul system to the gooseneck, it can always be extended later. I also need to replace my headsail tracks, they are very short and further forward that any other Renegade pic I've seen. I guess one of the PO's liked low clew sails.

Back to the search I guess, anyone have a recommendation in the PNW?
?

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:19 am

FWIW, my favorite specific feature of the loose foot is the ease of adjustment--no binding. But as I said, you need a good outhaul system to control it--well worth the minor upgrade required.

Ease of control means one might play with the control more, thereby enhancing sail shape for the conditions. This applies even to cruisers. Sails aren't static, and shouldn't be left alone.

Good luck, whichever route you choose!

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:13 pm

After doing some research on this a while back, I came to the conclusion that most lofts "outsource" their sailmaking. To me, it mostly comes down to who is going to give me the best service.

I have some experience with this with my former Renegade. I got a loose footed main with two full battens on top with one deep reef. I was happy with it and had no issues.

Battens: the track on the mast is bronze on the Renegade which should help in raising and lowering. But with all full battens you may get some binding unless you are considering changing out the external track. I had no problem with the top two full battens though.

Loose foot: Agree with Figment that it is much better for reefing to tie the sail to itself rather than the boom. The loose foot definitely had better shape at the boom. The outhaul is pretty simple to rig. Instead of running the line all the way forward to the gooseneck, just rig a simple 2 or 4 to one block and tackle from the end of the boom to the clew cringle and adjust it at the back of the boom. I also had my topping lift rigged there and on a purchase system tied to the end of the boom.

Re your genoa tracks being far forward: Most modern headsails are smaller in LP and I suspect yours are so far forward because the PO hoisted 140% or less. Even with my 150, I found I moved the blocks forward more than backward. This is something you should discuss with your sailmaker which is why SERVICE is so important when looking for a sailmaker IMO.

Good Luck!

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:38 pm

I wonder if the track style changed with the dinette version, my track is an internal that takes slugs. The sail maker said full battens shouldn't present a big binding issue with this set up.

I appreciate the advice, I guess I need to live with the fact of where sails are initially made, and realize that the service before and after is why I'm going to pay a bit more to use the guy I had the best feeling about.

So do I pony up the extra $300 to have an extra month with the new sails this Summer. I think I'll opt for the slow boat shipping, since sailing is really year round here. Actually in the middle of summer, the sunnier the day the lighter winds we seem to have. This will also give me some extra time for any outhaul, headsail track work I need to do, and some dollars to pay for it.

OK, one last question, Roller furling. I do have a great headsail. Its a racing Mylar/Kevlar from a J24, that really fits well, about like a 95%. I'd like to use it in heavy winds. A rigger I like has convinced that I'm eager enough to deal with hank on, and this will always give me better performance. Feel free to debate...

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:46 pm

s/v Groovy wrote:I wonder if the track style changed with the dinette version, my track is an internal that takes slugs. The sail maker said full battens shouldn't present a big binding issue with this set up.

Doubt it has anything to do with the "dinette" version... has more to do with new, cheaper, better methods and suppliers. Yes, I can confirm (based on my P-39) that full battens with those plastic slugs work fine with full battens.

s/v Groovy wrote:OK, one last question, Roller furling. I do have a great headsail. Its a racing Mylar/Kevlar from a J24, that really fits well, about like a 95%. I'd like to use it in heavy winds. A rigger I like has convinced that I'm eager enough to deal with hank on, and this will always give me better performance. Feel free to debate...

Do you currently have roller furling? Is that J24 sail on the furler or hanked? That J24 sail is probably the reason your tracks are set so far forward since the LP would be around 130% or so. Are you saying its LP is 95% or that it fits 95% of specs?

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:20 pm

I'm actually guessing that the North sail is ~95%. It is their one design racing sail, Hanks. A competitive J24 racer at work gave it to me, it was new in 2005 and had about 12 races on it, he was cleaning house. I guess he gets new sails every other year. I've only used it once, 20 -25 knot winds, (1 reef in main) man was that fun.

Here's a link:
http://www.onedesign.com/class/j24/j24- ... tches.html

I don't have a roller currently, I have what was marked as a 154%, but had it recut, and added leech and foot lines added because of the flutter, probably about a 145% now. I also have a 110% that is fairly tired too. and a storm jib, that I don't think has ever been used, all hank on sails.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:42 pm

I don't think I'd let this J24 sail make the RF-or-not decision for me.
For one thing, it's made for racing in light to moderate wind. It's not going to last forever as a heavy-air sail.

(I don't fault such use, however. The same thought crosses my mind every time I see a J24 genoa on ebay for a fraction of the cost of a proper-fit blade.)

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:57 pm

The same thought crosses my mind every time I see a J24 genoa on ebay

maybe you would like to pick up a excellent condition, J24 genoa, and help me subsidize a RF purchase? hehe....

I like how easy a RF would make things, and more storage on board, because of less sails. I don't like the expense, or loosing the simplicity of hanks, or the loss of performance (the actual loss is another perpetually debatable subject).

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:27 pm

I miss the hanks on my old Renegade.

Less weight, better performance, always had a sail for the conditions, and the sail was so manageable on a 27 footer.

If I had full time crew, I'd consider getting rid of the RF on the 39, but its a lot of sail (more than twice the sail area of the Renegade) for even two people to manage.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:18 pm

I'm not touching the roller furling discussion.

It's a totally personal choice. I know what's right for me; do what's right for you. Maybe they're the same, and maybe not.

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:10 pm

I don't think roller furling sails neccesarily denote poor preformance. As long as they are not furled I think their performance would be so close to a similar sized hank on sail that there would be little to no difference on most boats. I think the difference comes when they are reefed. other then racing most of the time performance is kind of a moot point for me.

I still kind of like to get on the foredeck and hank on sails. Some day the conveinence of roller furling is sure to win out.

The one piece of advice that helped make hanks much more pleasurable for me, is to turn downwind to change sails. You lose a little ground but you have a stable platform to work from and you get back in the cockpit nice and dry. The main shields the jib so its much easier to get under controll. I used to head up and luff. What a nightmare sails slatting, boat hobbyhorsing, waves coming over the bow. If I still did it that way I think I definately would get roller furling.

I couldn't imagine sailing on a boat much over 30 feet without it. I'm a big guy and a big genoa on a 30 foot boat is a handfull. My 170 on a triton is ok but much bigger then that and bring on the furler.

Advantages to hanks: cheaper (or not depending on sail inventory), less moving parts, fun on the foredeck(or not), You get to say "I think I'll go up on the fore deck and change the jib"

Advantages of roller furling: Cheaper ( or not depending on sail inventory), Jib usually reefed before it gets hairy, no fun on the fore deck, You never have to say " I have to go up on the fore deck and change that @#$%% jib again, hold my beer"

My advice when you find yourself dreading another trip to the foredeck to change sail get a furler. I still kinda get a kick out of it. When it stops being enjoyable I'll get a furler.

Brock

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:27 am

I think Brock has it about right. :)

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:50 am

I came across this in an article about a local sail maker, that actually makes sails locally, and not in china.

A JOB WELL DONE
In dedication to quality, a quality life is made.

When writing about "The Honor of Labor," novelist Joseph Conrad said that while skill and competence are admirable, "There is something beyond ? a higher point, a subtle and unmistakable touch of love and pride beyond mere skill; almost an inspiration which gives to all work that finish which is almost art ? which IS Art."Link to article

This quote made me think about the dedication to quality I see in the work on this site, and in Tim's shop, it is inspiring....

It also makes it difficult for me to hand over may money to someone, however skillful, if they are just going to farm out the actual work.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:02 pm

I finally made the call, I'm going to pay a bit more to go with the guy I feel will give me the best design, and service after the sale. I'm not going pay 30% over that to have them sewn locally, and can actually save 10% by delaying my gratification for a few weeks.

It is still hard to spend such a large percentage of the original purchase price, but I'm trying to get to the point where I can tell my self... hey you got a great sailboat for $x so that still leaves you #y and $z for upgrades and refurbishment.

From here on out, I will blame, and be grateful to everyone here, for showing me how great a classic plastic can be...

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:27 pm

s/v Groovy wrote:It is still hard to spend such a large percentage of the original purchase price...

Never forget: it's a SAILboat; There is no more satisfying purchase for your baby than new sails!

It helps if you keep telling yourself that! ;-D

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:57 pm

dasein668 wrote:
s/v Groovy wrote:It is still hard to spend such a large percentage of the original purchase price...
Never forget: it's a SAILboat; There is no more satisfying purchase for your baby than new sails!

It helps if you keep telling yourself that! ;-D

WORD. It will sail like a new boat.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:20 pm

As soon as you bend on those new sails, you'll forget the pain of their cost.

Lots of people sail around with old rags hanging from their rigging, but they don't know what they're missing. A sailboat is ALL about the sails, and new, good ones make a noticeable and tangible difference. Mine are 6 years old, and I'm starting to think about new ones.

Congratulations! Now you just have to wait...

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:15 am

I have decided on a Roller Furling. The sailmaker recommends a Furlex 106-10. The Renegade is at the top of its application specs, the Schaefer 750 seems comparable. After reading through previous posts here, I'm inclined to choose the Schaefer 1100. Mauriprosailing is the best price I've found, about $500 more for the 1100 than the proposed Furlex 106-10. Thoughts?

Post by **Tim** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:36 am

I sure like my Schaefer 1100. It's definitely overkill for the small foretriangle size on a Triton; I'm not sure how the Renegade compares, but the 1100 would be a nice choice without being overly large. The 750 is essentially the same thing in a slightly smaller package, and with a smaller foil.

I think moderate overkill is good for a furling system, so that you know it will take whatever you throw at it. I don't like being at the top end of any product's recommended range, so I tend to choose the next size up in those situations.

Furlex has a good reputation, and they seem pretty good, but frankly their foils are very small compared to the beefy Schaefer round foil. This is one of my favorite features of the Schaefer compared to other brands: the foil is incredibly rugged. I can carry the headstay assembly around by myself without it bending too much between the sections; most foils would bend badly and possibly break if one tried this. I mention this only as a means of illustrating the strength and quality of the Schaefer foil, not as a recommendation of how any foil should be handled.

The circular shape means that the sail furls and unrolls smoothly, without any of that "flat tire" rotational movement common to the assymetrical foils. This is a relatively small thing, but still nice. The Schaefer is definitely a cruising foil, though. Part-time racers would probably want the more aerodynamic, lighter foils found on the Harken and Furlex.

I also like the drum design on the Schaefer. Last time I knew, the Furlex still employed an old-fashioned spring-loaded cover and furling line fairlead, which works, but the simple open drum design of the Schaefer is superior in my opinion.

Overall, I don't think you could go wrong with any of the "big 4": Schaefer, Harken, Furlex, or Pro-Furl. Choose one with the features you like that make sense versus the purchase price. When I bought mine, it came down ultimately to Harken or Schaefer out of these four major choices.

I should add that when the time comes to buy another furler for another boat, I wouldn't hesitate to go with Schaefer again, though I'd still consider all applicable brands. But lacking any significant improvement in technology or features, I doubt I'd find a compelling reason to choose anything but Schaefer in the end.

Good luck.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:51 pm

My Renegade came with a Furlex, not sure what model. The first few rolls go on with the "flat tire effect" that Tim mentions but I don't really find it all that annoying. I went with a soft luff reefing 135% heavy cruising genny, so I don't think the foil shape of the Furlex helps all that much. I will find out how well it lasts, but it does reef down to approximately 100% while maintaining a respectable shape. This reefing option was one of the primary features I was looking for in a roller furler/cruising genny combo.

If I were to buy a new furler I would seriously consider a round foil. I would think a roller reefed (note: reefed and furled are not the same thing) genny might hold a better shape with a round foil.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:09 pm

Thanks for the thought about a round foil, makes me feel better about getting the 1100, the best price I have found is from mauriprosailing.com, does anyone have experience from them. I could buy it locally for another $120.

Any advice about what to tell the sailmaker, as far as optimum placement for the draft in the headsail? He was also saying he wants to put the reefs in the main a bit deeper than normal, I don't know what that means numerically yet, but the current reefs are about 4'8" each, with a 28' luff.

any tips you think might be helpful about how to work with the sailmaker would be appreciated....

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:18 pm

Quick math-guess; those reefs each cut the sail area by about 35-40% (roughly?)
That seems a bit much.
I'd rather have shallower reefs (something in the 25-30% range), and add a third later if the need demonstrated itself.
Reef early, reef often. I think it's only natural that one would be hesitant to adhere to this maxim when that first reef is so deep.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:49 pm

I use my 1st reef a lot. I find that reefing the main before any shortening from my 135 genny to yield a better balance in sail plan. Unless the wind drops below 10 kts. I usually don't bother shaking it out as the added sail isn't worth the hassle of having to reef again if the wind kicks up, which in my area it well can and often does. I will measure my reef locations this w/e and give you the details and my thoughts.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm

I have the sailmakers numbers on the main now, he wants to have the first reef 4'7" and the second 5'7", for a total of 10'2" of reefing potential the Luff will be 27" 9". Each reef point will be just below a full baton offering additional support to the reefed foot. I have never put in the second reef on my current sail, but it seems that this deep second is fairly conservative and to be employed if caught in a real blow. The current first reef I have has always seemed fine, and if I make the new reefs smaller I'd have to move the cheek blocks.

Thanks Dave, I'll look forward to a second measurement.

Maybe I'm obsessing, or just a perfectionist, thanks for all the advise, or just reassurances in advance.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:16 am

Gregg,

Check out Rigging Only for your Schaefer furler. Their prices are just a bit better than Mauri Pro, and while I haven't yet purchased directly from them, I've heard only good things about the place.

Link: Rigging Only

On the mainsail: if your current reefing size and setup has worked well, then your new sail should mirror the existing in this regard. No need to shake things up.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:13 am

I'll second the recommendation for Rigging Only. They are usually the cheapest, if not, near enough. And they are knowledgeable which goes a long way in my book.

Re your main: As you know, the Renegade likes to be reefed early and often in conjunction with the appropriate headsail. I would tend toward one deeper reef, but since you will only have one headsail, two reefs are a good idea. I would not make more work for yourself second guessing where the reef points should go without more experience.

I can only offer some experience of my own on my previous Renegade in that my one deep reef and a storm jib was enough for 40 knots. IMO, however, since you will have a RF headsail, two moderate reef points will offer you more options.

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:32 pm

Forgot I had promised to reply here. I did make the measurements, but had so much fun on Block Island last weekend I left my notes on board.

I don't have a full batten main, yet that is. I don't know if having the batten just above the reef does anything to reinforce the new foot when reefed, or if it does anything to create a better shape. That seems to be the point your sail maker is trying to make.

I do however like the size of my main when reefed. You will note that the reefs are considerably lower than your sail maker is recommending Greg.

My first reef is just under 4 feet up the luff and the second is at just about 8 feet up.

I use an approximately 135% genny. I can carry my full main up to about 15 kts but usually reef a little early unless I am off the wind or looking for excitement. At about 20kts I reef the genny. I have used the second reef only once, and it was in 25+ kt winds.

I am quite happy with the variations my main in its present configuration makes with my new genny. Unless someone has some rather compelling argument for moving them up to just beneath the battens I will use the same locations for my new main to be made this coming winter. Please update this thread with your final decisions, pics of new sails and thoughts etc. Gregg when you have your new sails. I am definitely up for some more info before my final decision and I hope this info helps in yours.

Aweigh329 · Post by **Aweigh329** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:41 pm

I realize I'm late getting into this thread but for what it's worth I just took delivery of three new sails From Doyle in Alameda, CA. for the Triton.

1 New mainsail w/ 2 reefs and insignia. 2 full battens, 2 partial battens 6.4 oz. supercruise dacron $1740

2 110% jib 6.4 oz supercruise w/battens $790

3 80% jib 6.4 oz $710

I ordered these at the boatshow in April and just got them last week. I think they were cut in China, sewn in Sri Lanka. All the sailmakers I talked to were doing the same thing.
Jim

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:23 pm

that Doyle pricing on the main seems in line with most, the headsails seem like a great deal.

For me I decided to trust this sailmakers knowledge, he has a very good reputation locally, and really seemed to know about the dynamics of this design era.
So in mid august I should take delivery of:
Schaefer 1100 roller furling
foam luff 150% genny
loose foot 4 full batten main, two reefs, 1st subtracting 4.5', second subtracting 5' from luff.
both are racing cut, made from a 'Challenger' 6.68 modulus dacron.

I could add it all up but like those Visa commercials, the last line would be: " New sails on your classic plastic.... PRICELESS"

Last night we has a nice evening sail in about 20 knots of wind, had the old main reefed once, and hanked the old 110% on, I've never had the 110% recut, like my current 147%, and at times the leech flutter sounded like a helicopter was landing nearby. New sails are going to be soooo sweeeeeet.....

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:21 pm

s/v Groovy wrote: Last night we has a nice evening sail in about 20 knots of wind, had the old main reefed once, and hanked the old 110% on, I've never had the 110% recut, like my current 147%, and at times the leech flutter sounded like a helicopter was landing nearby. New sails are going to be soooo sweeeeeet.....

Congrats and can't wait to see the pics!

BTW: You will have to pay attention to your genoa car placement on the RF jib to avoid the "helicopter" as well. In addition to adjusting for windward or downwind sailing, when you reef the headsail, the sheeting angle will change.

I ended up getting adjustable genoa cars from Garhauer to make it a bit easier to do this with the car under load.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:47 pm

This old 110% is so tired, no matter how far forward I put the block, the choppers were still circling ;-)

I should have added that part of the worklist is also changing the current 3 foot genoa tracks to 6 foot, refinishing the Toe Rails at the same time. A simple outhaul is on the list. I'm also considering an adjustable mainsheet traveler. geese, it is all connected.....

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:34 pm

this brings up a question...

How do I get new genoa tracks for mounting to the toerails? I want to keep the current Toe Rail mounting location because straight tracks on the deck would interfere with the deck drainage depression and the drain itself. Rigging Only said Schaefer doesn't bent their t-track. help......

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:01 pm

s/v Groovy wrote:Rigging Only said Schaefer doesn't bent their t-track. help......

Install it one bolt at a time. It will bend. It will be a lot easier than re-installing the stainless track you have now as that will instantly straighten once you take it off.

Main thing to watch out for: Mounting bolts that come down right on top of interior bulkheads. The factory installed them there and it was a major source of why the main bulkhead was rotting. This was my problem when I replaced the 4' track with the Schaefer 6' track. If I remember correctly, the hole centers on the new track were about the same (4" centers), but your results may vary.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:19 am

Thanks Jolly boat, for the reasons you stated above, and some others, this is why I choose Neil Pryde. They were not the least expensive, but I felt the visits to my boat for hands on measuring, equipment placement advice, and the full consultation, where worth the extra cost.

True, I wish that the final labor was still local, but to have someone here do the sewing the price would have almost doubled. I have no doubt that the fully local sailmakers are worth it, but I had to make a compromise somewhere, like every other choice you make on a boat.

So in a few weeks, my Neil Pryde sails will be here. Thank you for the insight on the company, its people and their philosophy, it makes me feel like I made a good decision.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:58 pm

Groovy,
Glad to hear it. Your agent is Scott Rush of Rush Sails in Kirkland, WA Scott is a first rate sailmaker and very keen in making sure that his customers are well taken care of. I am in CT in the design office. If ever you have questions or concerns please feel free to contact me either here or at the office (bg@neilprydesails.com).

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:38 pm

Time to order the new hardware, and after a call to Rigging Only, my wallet is considerably lighter. Roller furling with clear step kit, new 6' tracks and stand up sliding blocks, all Schaefer. I'll save the install of a mainsheet traveler for when I refinish the decks.

Jollyboat, yes, Scott Rush is the reason I'm getting Neil Pryde sails. Out of all the different people I talked to he came out on top as the most professional and knowledgeable, as well as having a very strong reputation locally.

I'm looking for a good source for new fasteners for the tracks, any suggestions?

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:00 pm

s/v Groovy wrote: I'm looking for a good source for new fasteners for the tracks, any suggestions?

The Shangra La of fastners: http://www.mcmaster.com

They will have them in 316 stainless!

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:47 pm

Thanks Mike, any more specific link? Like do you remember what you used when you replaced your tracks? Sometimes the McMaster site gives me the 'deer in headlights' feeling

Post by **Tim** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:21 pm

The Schaefer T-track takes 1/4-20 flat head machine screws.

McMaster Catalog page 2988 (link)

316SS 1/4-20 Flat Head Machine Screws (Phillips) Part Numbers--all available lengths (link)

The McMaster site takes some getting used to, but the navigation is really quite logical. But no doubt the selection is mind boggling, to put it mildly.

The search function on their site is also quite good and usually returns the result you need.

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:52 pm

I replaced the 1" aluminum T tracks on my Sea Sprite. FWIW, I used a vice open about 4" keeping the track level and slowly, pull by pull, bent the T track to approximate the toe rail. I installed them using the same holes for the three footer, adding 2 holes aft and the rest forward. Worked like a champ.

The problem with the "one bolt at a time" method is getting those last two bolts in. So at least pre-bend the last foot or so.

s/v Groovy · Post by **s/v Groovy** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:45 pm

"Super Tim" to the rescue....

*he swoops down*
"Why this is the exact fastener you are looking for, oh, and don't forget the enlarge the top of the hole for better sealant penetration, and never ever use silicone... up up and away"

*announcers voice*
Another project made easier, all in a days work....... for.... SUPER TIM....

THANKS!

rshowarth · Post by **rshowarth** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:52 pm

I have purchased some from Bolt Depot.

Their prices are much better, but McMaster Carr is great. I wonder if there is a quality issue?

http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?c ... m=6&cd=325

Post by **Tim** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:31 am

Bolt Depot is a good source, but they don't stock 316 stainless--only 304 (18-8). Bolt Depot is great if you don't want to buy full boxes, particularly of large or odd-sized fasteners. I often order from there.

The stainless bolts linked above are 316 alloy, which does cost more. McMaster's price is quite good for this alloy. 316, of course, is more corrosion resistant than 304, but quite frankly either alloy works acceptably.

rshowarth · Post by **rshowarth** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:49 am

Tim-

Thank you for the explanation.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:35 am

Hardware 101 questions:
1. What's wrong with plain old hardware store stainless fasteners?
2. What about the cheaper zinc plated fasteners? I'm guessing they corrode a lot faster than stainless?

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:09 am

1. Depends on the hardware store, and how much you trust their trust in their supplier. Big-box hardware store fasteners are often a low-grade alloy, if the alloy is declared at all. I've also noticed that the sizes are shrinking.... A No. 10 screw seems more like a No. 9-1/2 because it's such a jingling-loose fit in the No. 10 nut.
I have a couple of local independant hardware stores that I trust, but that trust is based on a LOT of trial-and-error.

2. Yes. Galvanized fasteners have been used in boatbuilding forever, but always as an economic concession, never because someone thought they were the ideal.

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