Ground tackle: Seeking rope-to-chain splice input.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:14 pm

Hi folks,

This question happened to pop up today at work, but it's something I've had in the back of my mind for my own information as well. I'd like to discuss the suitability of a rope-to-chain splice in an anchor rode, as opposed to a spliced thimble/shackle combination.

My current "someone-else's boat" example is for the secondary bower on a 44' displacement trawler. This is a (pre-supplied) 17# anchor that is currently on an all-rope rode, to which the owners will be adding 20' of chain between the anchor and the main rode. Although the anchor will probably not be used often, the splice will come into play each time the anchor is used since it will be relatively close to the anchor. On the other hand, how it goes through the gipsy is not an issue in this case, since the port side of the windlass has the type of wildcat that is meant for rope (looks similar to a winch barrel).

I would tend to favor the splice, but I've heard possible negatives such as chafe in the splice, either caused by movement or something like grains of sand. I did use the recommended splice on my dinghy anchor rode (I believe I found it in Brion Toss' book), but of course that was on a 1.5 lb. Bruce holding a 7' dinghy, so not quite on the same scale. On "big" boats, I've always had a long enough chain rode to not have to worry about the issue.

I'd love to hear what forumites have to say on the topic.

Thank you,

Rachel

Post by **Tim** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:03 pm

I think the real question is what a 17# anchor is doing on a 44' displacement trawler. That sounds puny! (Let me guess: a Fortress?) Remind me to anchor far away from--and upwind of--this boat. Plus, this particular anchor setup sounds so lightweight that using a windlass for it at all seems like it might be more hassle than it's worth. It'd be an easy anchor to raise by hand.

If the windlass isn't the type that handles chain and rope without a need to manually use the winch-type arrangement (that is, if it doesn't have a rope/chain gypsy head), then a thimble/shackle will work fine. It's less clean than a splice, but we all know that it works well.

I've never used a direct chain-rope splice before because I've never had a windlass, but I do have one rode on board (spare--never used) that has the rope-chain splice. For my working anchors, I use a thimble and shackle to connect my chain and rope rode. It's fine except for pulling the bulky shackle through the anchor roller, but that's a momentary hassle. Somehow, the rope in a direct splice seems like it'd be prone to chafe where it connects to the chain, but maybe others who have actual experience with this rig can comment on that.

kabauze · Post by **kabauze** » Thu May 17, 2007 5:05 pm

I used an alternative type of rope to chain splice, called the 'long splice', when I recently replaced all of Nevermind's ground tackle. You can find general advice about rope to chain splices in this well-written article:

http://www.bajaseafaris.com/anchor.html

and specific instructions on making the long splice are at:

http://www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html

I'll add these suggestions:

1) Measure out about 14-15" of rope for the splice, and whip the rope strongly and tightly at the mark you make ( I was splicing 1/2" rope to 1/4" HT). Forget the 12 turns that the second article suggests...12 turns makes a really short splice.

2) I carefully unwove the three strands and then immediately coated them with whip-end dip for their entire length. If you don't do this, they tend to unravel badly while making the splice. The dip also provides a lot of chafe protection for the splice.

3) Definitely color-code the three strands as article #2 suggests...making the splice is a snap!

Good luck -

Todd

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:43 pm

Thanks to both of you for the input.

Tim, I agree that the anchor is very small, but at least it's the secondary. It's a SuperMax; I have no experience with it.

The primary is a 55# Delta, which uses the starboard side of the windlass and does have a chain gipsy. I actually think the Delta is light too - I'd go for at least a 75# and probably more. Imagine the windage of a large trawler like that with a covered flying bridge! I mentioned this to the boat's owners, and I have a feeling they will shift the 55# Delta over to the secondary side and get a heftier primary of a different type (for variety) when they leave the Chesapeake (not that you don't need good ground tackle everywhere, of course).

I was searching around a bit on this topic and found a link to some old tests (Practical Sailor, I think), wherein they tested a number rope-to-chain splices. In most of the tests the rope did break where it went around the chain, but at that point the shackles were distorted, and the chain so elongated that it could no longer be bent freely, so probably any anchor would have broken out by then. Still, the test didn't really take chafe into account. I'll probably use the splice on my own boat at some point, but I guess I won't recommend it to anyone else.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Thu May 17, 2007 8:12 pm

I have just end for ended my rode to my chain using a rope chain splice that is more like a back splice. Not the one where you weave into the links.

When I cut the old one off the rope within the splice was near perfect. no idea how long is was on there, but I don't think there is much wear there.

I think the movement that everyone expects is really between the first 2 chain links.

Easy to do, easy to check.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu May 17, 2007 8:34 pm

Kabauze, I just had a chance to go read the material you linked to. Pertaining to the splice link (perhaps this would obvious if I had a lengths of rope and chain in front of me), but with that long splice is there more than the typical amount of rope contacting the chain where they connect (and where the weakest point seems to be)? I see a lot of rope in the splice, but I can't tell.

The anchoring article was interesting. I don't agree with everything he said, but you never know when you'll pick up a good tidbit of info. even if you don't go along with it all. I did want to write in and let him know that they do make high-test shackles :-) Also, he said "... under load [thimbles] have a tendency to rotate, and the throat of the thimble will chafe the splice." I've never used a thimble in an anchor rode. Has anyone who does noticed this tendency?

Ric, that's interesting. I've read that a couple of times from others who have taken their rode apart after some use. Perhaps it's as you say, and the wear isn't where one would intuitively think it would be.

Rachel

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu May 17, 2007 9:34 pm

My vote: Double the length of chain and just shackle it.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:04 pm

Hi Figment,

Do you mean just avoid the issue entirely by having an all-chain rode? That's what I've always anchored with in the past, but I can see that I might not have 300' of chain on every boat. Or there might be a stern anchor with a short length of chain and then rope.

Or did I miss the point?

R.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:23 pm

No, I simply meant to have (roughly) a boatlength of chain, shackled to a thimbled eye spliced in the rode.

I can't imagine that a chain of only 20' will have any catenary effect on what must be a 20 ton boat. I gather that this is just a lunch hook, but like Tim I wouldn't want to be anchored anywhere near it, downwind or up!

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:45 pm

Rachel- I've used the back splice type splice on my anchor rodes for a number of years now. All of Tehani's rodes are attached like that as were all three on Necessity. You know how often Laura and I anchor and the variety of places we've anchored IN.

I check them now and again but I've never seen any indication of chafe. Most certainly not inside the splice where it goes around the last link. The splice there is so tight that it does not have a chance to move, so can't chafe.

By the way- that's the same type splice sold by several companies in the pre spliced rope/chain rodes. Of course, mine were all done by me.

JSmith · Post by **JSmith** » Fri May 18, 2007 6:49 am

I vote enough chain so when you haul back your just handling the rode by hand as the boat eases forward- no need for a windlass, then as the chain draws tighter with less scope and depth i drop it on the wibdlass and crank her in.

As far as chafe sometimes on tugs & towing we use the opposite- we tow on 1 1/2" wire-then a 20' shock line ( usually something like 12" diameter nylon 8 braid) and then to wire or chain bridles on the barge. When there is 1500-200' of wire out there is plenty of catenary but when you have to shorten up the nylon shock line will absorb any shock loads. This happens regularly going into port or say the east end of the Cape cod canal where the army corp wants the tow 75-100' behind you and the current and swells can get ugly. The major issue we have to watch is internal chafe in the 8-braid due to dragging in mud and sand- the easing/tightening of the hawser let the sand chop right through it-even while clear of the bottom- you have to open the lay to see the little critters. Sort of a side bar but similar!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:29 am

CharlieJ wrote:The splice there is so tight that it does not have a chance to move, so can't chafe.
Of course, mine were all done by me.

Now that's some GOOD splicing! I've never been able to lay a chain splice that didn't work some slack into itself after a while.

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:34 pm

I back splice my anchor rode to the chain as well. I haven't had any problems and it is easy to check for chafe. I figure the worry about chafe is equal to the worry about shackle strength or the pin coming loose. I use three strand and it only takes a few minutes to throw in a splice if there is wear. I always prefer a knot to a fitting but that is my Luddite side showing.
Best regards, David

CharlieJ · Post by **CharlieJ** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:19 pm

Shoalcove wrote: I always prefer a knot to a fitting but that is my Luddite side showing.

LOL- I guess I fit in there also. I do have a shackle on the jib halyard, but the main is tied directly to the sail using a buntline hitch. Had to send Laura up the mast once when a shackle opened- no mas!!!

I also just use a buntline hitch on things like the dead end of the main sheet, instead of a splice. Plus we have 3 strand dacron as main and jib halyards, and mainsheet. On our 46 year old boat with it's varnished wooden mast and boom, it just seems to fit.

And we carry and use, a lead line.

We DON'T carry a TV. But we do have a pair of GPS units aboard.

Color us luddites too- grin

Shoalcove · Post by **Shoalcove** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:24 pm

Hi Charlie,
I've got GPS and even an old radar onboard and am happy to have both. No TV or Gameboys for the kids though. I still row the plywood dinghy I built. Knots work great in a lot of situations. I'm probably just cheap, but I can't bring myself to buy a chain hook for the anchor snubber (i.e. nylon line) when I can attach them securely with a running hitch or camel hitch. I worked my way through college on a 143' schooner with a 4100 sq. ft. main. The mast was held up by lanyards seized in place with tarred marline lashings. Carefully done, mind you... It is interesting to read that some of the modern Volvo race boats are now using knots and lashings to reduce weight and increase reliability. Best regards, David