A little something for the Atomic 4 crowd

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Figment
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A little something for the Atomic 4 crowd

Post by Figment »

There is a good deal of positive feedback on the internet and in sailing circles in general regarding the Indigo propellor, designed specifically for the Atomic 4 engine. The data gets somewhat murky, however, with regard to this propellor?s performance in a full-keel application, where less of the blade area ?sees? clear water from behind the deadwood.

Our dear Britton was kind enough to loan me his Indigo propeller so that I could obtain the comparison data. This isn?t Practical Sailor, but I tried to keep the data as even-handed as possible. The same boat carrying the same load, performing opposing runs on the same stretch of river in nearly identical weather. The bottom was neither clean nor fouled, a simple mild coat of slime, which I think to be fairly typical for cruising boats. Ignition timing and carburetor jet settings were not re-tuned for the Indigo series of test runs.
Here we go:
Image

I?ve included the charge data because this is much of my motivation for investigating the propeller swap. The low rpm allowed by the 2blade propeller was limiting the alternator?s charging ability, which is of particular concern to me because only about 10% of my motoring is done at speeds faster than ?river cruise?.

Upon review of the data, Tom Stevens of Indigo offered comment:
I have always had concern myself about the hulls like Triton and Alberg 30 mainly from an astern performance standpoint. With that 4" wide deadwood, a lot of the astern column of water being pushed by the prop slams into the deadwood, negating your astern efforts. In the ahead direction, I have got to believe that the vibration is reduced reduced with my prop also. Unless your A4 is rather tired, you really should be able to get more RPM at WOT. With my Tartan 34 tied up in her slip, I can get 2000 RPM WOT. My belief is that a static dock trial on most any hull should give about the same results.
I found no appreciable difference in reversing/stopping power between the two propellors. (He was right about the ability to achieve higher RPM at WOT, by the way*)

Propwalk is another hot topic. In forward gear, I found almost zero propwalk with the Indigo propeller. I left the helm unattended for a full two minutes with no remarkable change in course. By contrast, the two-blade propeller generated enough propwalk that I had to secure the helm for any unattended period of more than ten seconds or so.
The Indigo does generate some propwalk in reverse gear, but it?s still an improvement.
In reverse at roughly 1100 rpm, with the helm centered, the 2blade prop caused a swing of 30 degrees in the 30? distance required to clear my dock. The Indigo prop caused only 10 degrees of swing in the same distance.

In light of these results, I think it?s fair to say that the performance of the Indigo propeller is in fact hindered by the small keel aperture, as these improvement numbers don?t seem to measure up to the improvements found with other applications in which the prop sees clear water. This is no surprise, really. There is improvement, however, and it might just be enough to forgive the additional drag under sail.

*After the propswap testing, I converted to electronic ignition and retuned the engine. I now can achieve 2400 rpm in a static dock test.
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Post by bcooke »

Thanks for the data Mike.

Interesting about the backing performance. I remember reading how much better the Indigo prop aids in backing up and when I took it out for a test I thought "if this is an improvement then I would really hate the original setup. I don't see myself backing out of anywhere very well with either prop.

I am surprised at your low max. speed. I am pretty sure (not scientifically tested) that I can get over 6 knots at just under full throttle with my late model Triton. Going from 3/4 to WOT seems to do little (maybe an extra tenth or two) except raise the noise level, squat the stern, throw more bow wake and generally make the engine sound mad at me. My engine (A4) has about 150 hours since overhaul if the broker is to be believed (and it seems quite possible). I also have all the mods so that might help. My tachometer was flaky all last summer so I can't be sure of my max. engine speed but the indications seemed to hover between 2000 and 2200 at the upper end of the power band depending on its mood.

What is your cruise speed with the new ignition unit?

Overall, it sounds like a marginal improvement but maybe not the jaw-dropping improvement we hear about in some circles.

Thanks again,

-Britton
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Post by Tim »

Figment wrote:This isn?t Practical Sailor
Thank God. And let's keep it that way!
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Post by Tim »

bcooke wrote:I am pretty sure (not scientifically tested) that I can get over 6 knots at just under full throttle
I'd say that's accurate. During our overlapping cruise last year, you clearly could steam faster than me when you felt like trying, and I generally get 5-5.25 knots in flat water at my typical cruising speed (diesel). And you were faster than Nathan's "speed prop" too--again, when you felt like cranking it up.
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Post by dasein668 »

Yes I was getting about 5.5-5.6 knots at cruising throttle during that trip and Britton was clearly a little bit faster when he wanted.
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Post by Figment »

bcooke wrote: What is your cruise speed with the new ignition unit?
I'll let you know as soon as I get her away from the dock.
Somewhere in the mix I picked up a problem in the raw water cooling. I suspect the copper monster to be the culprit. Waterlift conversion just leapfrogged the priority list.
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Post by bcooke »

Britton was clearly a little bit faster when he wanted.
*2

Hah! You finally admit it!

To sooth your wounded egos and sense of honors I will concede that while I may be a mite bit faster I burn twice as much fuel as either of you.

A4's Rule!

-Britton
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Post by bcooke »

I am pretty sure (not scientifically tested) that I can get over 6 knots...
In fairness I should add that it takes absolutely perfect conditions to see this kind of speed (velocity?-(for the boat nerds)). Dead flat water, no wind, about five to ten minutes of acceleration... I can expect 5.5-5.7kts on any given day but over six only on special occasions and as I said, the engine really doesn't like me when I ask this much from her.

-Britton
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Post by bcooke »

Waterlift conversion just leapfrogged the priority list.
Waterlift is Highly recomended. My blower motor is the loudest thing I hear when under power. At idle I can't hear the engine at all over the blower.

-Britton
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Post by Figment »

The copper monster was falsely accused.
But while we're on the topic of waterlift exhaust.....
Is yours a plastic vetus-type muffler, or the metal can type?
Where/how is it mounted?
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Post by bcooke »

Vetus- mounted along the inboard edge of the port cockpit locker.

I will try and remember to take some pictures of the installation tomorrow.

-Britton
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Post by Figment »

....and how/where is the water injection accomplished?
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Post by bcooke »

Let's see... exhaust exits the manifold and goes up and to the port side, two elbows separated by a 2 inch or so straight section directs the exhaust back down and a rubber hose takes over, connecting with the Vetus muffler. The heated raw water is injected at the second elbow from above so the directed flow is straight down in line with the exhaust flow at that point. A picture would make it all so much clearer...

-Britton
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Post by bcooke »

Sorry, I couldn't get out to the boat today :-(

If it is any consolation, the boat is pretty miffed at me too. I promised her a few hours tomorrow .

-Britton
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Post by Tim »

bcooke wrote:Sorry, I couldn't get out to the boat today :-(
You know, those projects don't finish themselves...get going, mistah!
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Post by bcooke »

It is not that I am avoiding you. I am just afraid of what you will say when you see how much 'progress' I have made in the past couple of months... I keep pushing the ball forward but at the current rate I will be retired before I can sail again. I really ought to do something about that.

-Britton
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Post by bcooke »

Okay, it is a little dusty but here is my exhaust installation in the Triton.

Image

You can see the exhaust is routed to the port side just enough to get out from under the cockpit sole where it can get some height. The raw water is injected in the second elbow fitting which directs the exhaust back down. A hose then takes the exhaust aft to the Vetus water lift muffler. The tank could be moved a little closer to the inside of the compartment. I might do that or I might just leave it alone. It depends in part on the new fuel tank going under the cockpit sole.

One of the reasons I wanted a large-ish access hatch on the cockpit benches is so that I can gain access to the exhaust for maintenance or replacement and I intend to close off access from the cabin.

Does that help?

-Britton
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Post by Figment »

Yes, very helpful. That's one extraordinarily well-lit pic of what really should be one of the deepest darkest nether reigons of any boat!
Of course, part of the "help" is that it prompts questions I wouldn't otherwise have thought to ask.

What actually supports that stack? Is the whole deal just cantilevered off the back of the manifold?

I assume that this is all still connected, yes? the connection is just hiding behind your heat exchanger's expansion tank?

I'm sure that future homework on waterlift systems will answer this, but I might as well ask as it occurs... why, after the water injection elbow, does the line not drop directly into the muffler? why turn aft and slope gently to the muffler?
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Post by bcooke »

Is the whole deal just cantilevered off the back of the manifold
Yes. There was an ill-fitting bracket that secured the stack to the side of the cockpit well but it was causing more strain than it was relieving. With the stack free standing there doesn't seem to be as much stress as you would think and I am monitoring it. Last summer I could barely detect a vibration in the stack even at the higher engine speeds. Something should be done but I am not sure what exactly. The stack should really be secured to the engine so that it moves with the engine (which shouldn't move much as it is firmly bolted to the standard Triton engine beds without any of those fancy floating mounts). I foresaw the engine bed flexing in one direction and the cockpit well flexing in another so even if my bracket was better made there is a built in stress point there. Some sort of bracing should be there but the details haven't been worked out yet.
I assume that this is all still connected, yes
You are correct. I didn't see the need for another picture to highlight the exhaust exiting the manifold but I could get you one if you would like.
why, after the water injection elbow, does the line not drop directly into the muffler
The fitting on the muffler is angled but you are right, the muffler could be moved forward and the down pipe pointed more down.

I should add that the boat came like this. It isn't my design and I haven't put too much thought into fixing something that seems to work okay while I have so many other things that clearly do not work to my expectations.

Oh, and as for the lighting, a few minutes with a hammer and a couple more with a skilsaw and your exhaust too could be basking in sunlit heaven! The semi-bulkhead that makes the back of the original icebox will be filled in at some point when I don't need the crawl through access. For now I am going to enjoy the freedom and lighting. That's why I felt the plastic hatch in the cockpit was justified. It solves more problems than it creates but as with everything, it is a compromise.

Image

-Britton
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Post by Figment »

bcooke wrote: I should add that the boat came like this. It isn't my design and I haven't put too much thought into fixing something that seems to work okay while I have so many other things that clearly do not work to my expectations.
hehe, I wasn't out to critique the installation! I'm just throwing darts on the wall. well, ok maybe not that precise. I'm flinging pencils into the acoustic tile ceiling. yeah, that's better!
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Post by bcooke »

Don't kid yourself. Everyone is a critic around here ;-)

How many times have you thought while reading the forum posts.... "What is that guy/gal thinking?!"

Really though, I was defending my position from my own critique. I really need to get more done if I am going to go sailing next year.

-Britton
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Post by bcooke »

bcooke wrote:

What is your cruise speed with the new ignition unit?



I'll let you know as soon as I get her away from the dock.
Been away from the dock yet?

Maybe the better way to go is to flatten the pitch on the 2-bladed propeller which should allow the engine to run faster? I hear a prop shop can do these sorts of things.

-Britton
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Post by Figment »

I'm not ignoring you, I just didn't get away from the dock this weekend, and can't recall exactly what the new top speed turned out to be. It's well over 6kts, I believe.

Flattening the 2blade would let the motor spin faster, but probably wouldn't do much in the category of propwalk. Something tells me that I'd get laughed out of Essex Propellor if I asked them to tweak my beat-up little 12X8.
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Post by bcooke »

It's well over 6kts, I believe.
And some people just thought I was making that number up ;-)

I told you guys a good A4 and prop will really push the Triton along but did anybody really believe me? No. They paid me lip service and pretended to believe me but all along they were thinking, "this guy is nuts", "does he know the difference between over the bottom speed and through the water speed?", "I bet this guy wouldn't know 6kts if it hit him on the forehead"...

You diesel fanatics, read the numbers and weep :-)

-Britton -I'm faster than you- Cooke
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Post by Jason K »

I told you guys a good A4 and prop will really push the Triton along but did anybody really believe me? No. They paid me lip service and pretended to believe me but all along they were thinking, "this guy is nuts", "does he know the difference between over the bottom speed and through the water speed?", "I bet this guy wouldn't know 6kts if it hit him on the forehead"...

You diesel fanatics, read the numbers and weep :-)

...That guy is nuts.
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