Marrying the A4 to the Triton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:28 pm

If anyone wants to try and convince me that three out of four mounting bolts are sufficient to hold the Atomic Four in place I will provide the beer...

My aft starboard mounting bolt is loose; very loose. Now one would think that, however awkward it might be, it should be possible to get a wrench on the bolt head and another wrench or socket on the nut and tighten it down. But... it appears as though the two aft bolt heads are glassed in! Somedays I love the Pearson family... but that day isn't today. I am only guessing at this because I didn't have my mirror with me but I have a fair amount of trust in what the eyeballs on the ends of my fingers are telling me and what they say isn't good.

Did Pearson normally glass in the aft engine mount bolts are am I being unfair and this is an "aftermarket mod"?

I guess the good news is that I will now be able to clean up the engine bay enough to lick dry and paint with some white Bilgekote which will look really nice. Plus, with the engine hanging free on the hoist I can install all the parts I removed and set up the new electronic ignition module all from the comfort of the main saloon. I might even bring in a soft comfy chair to make it really nice while I am working.

I guess this serves me right for snooping around too much. The engine has probably been held in with three bolts for at least twenty years and if I had just put the boat in the water I would have never thought twice about it.

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:42 pm

I am going to take my bad habit of hijacking postings onto wild tangents to new heights by taking my own for a ride before anyone else has a chance to respond.

I bought my Triton in "working condition", that is, it was assumed to be capable of stepping the mast and sailing away which I almost tried except for one thing. The surveyor was concerned about the shaft seal which could only be seen by hanging upside down and sticking your head into the port cockpit locker. Kudos to the surveyor. I have since added a big access hatch (as should everyone - I LOVE it) and decided to put my screwdriver on the hose clamp that holds the hose to the shaft tube. The clamp SPUN around with hardly any friction. There was nothing holding the hose in place except the friction of the hose end with the shaft tube. In my surprise I swung the screwdriver end towards the hose and punched right through the hose. Had I launched the boat to sail from the site of purchase (Biddeford ME) to its new home on the Ipswich marshes I think the chances are quite good that I would have SUNK on that maiden (to me) voyage. Now that would have been a sad story.

Moral of the story?... I don't think there is one. I guess, check your shaft seal at least once every 38 years and have a pre-purchase survey done by someone capable of hanging upside down in your port cockpit locker.

-Britton

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:52 pm

Question: has this engine ever been pulled? one way to tell..... are the nuts square or hexagonal?

My aft bolts aren't truly glassed-in-place, but there isn't sufficient clearance beneath to allow the bolts to be removed.
This leads me to believe that the bolts were in place when the "engine beds" (such as they are) were glassed in place.
It's not a far stretch of imagination to think that some stray goo found its way onto your bolt head during this installation.

No easy solution, though. Maybe find a 1/4" chisel that you won't mind ruining and slowly pare away the goo until you can get a pair of needlenose vise-grips to do their thing?

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:45 pm

I just remove my Atomic 4 about a few months ago. The aft starboard bolt spun around freely (my bolts had a flat plate welded to them to "trap them against the bed so as to allow removal with a singe wrench). I ended up splitting the square nut with a cold chisel, and the engine came out afterward. Admittedly, the back starboard nut was badly rusted from cracked scupper hoses, so I'm sure this made the process much easier.

Once out, I can't see why you couldn't cut out the out part of the oval bolt hole, slip out the bolt, re-weld the steel plate, and replace.

Joe

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:51 pm

hmmm...

Hexagonal heads and the "new" style A4 with freshwater cooling so I am going to assume the engine has been pulled before. No clearance for the aft bolts?... so even once I get them out (grind/chop/crush/whatever) how will I get them in...

Joe did it. I can do it. Oh, wait a minute, didn't you (Joe) dump the A4? I guess once I gain better access I will have a better feel for it. The first step in fixing a problem is to tear out, by whatever means necessary, the offensive bits so the proper repair can be initiated.

Funny... that line of thinking could lead to a very empty boat.

It does feel like a lot of goop around the bolt heads so that is probably the case. I hope the person who designed the "Install mount bolts and then glass in the beds" system dies a horrible and painful death. Well, that is too harsh. I hope said individual has to sail an O'Day for the rest of his/her life (sorry O'Day owners, personal opinion here). Still too harsh... Okay, I hope they are banned from sailing and have to spend the rest of their lives in those small '70 style, twin V hulled horrible looking powerboats with gel coat that hasn't been polished in 20 years. Yeah, that will fix 'em.

Once out, I can't see why you couldn't cut out the out part of the oval bolt hole, slip out the bolt, re-weld the steel plate, and replace.

It sounds like an easy afternoon's project when you put it that way... :-)

A three point (bolt) mounting system is looking better all the time. I wish I had lower standards...

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:44 am

bcooke wrote:...I didn't have my mirror with me but I have a fair amount of trust in what the eyeballs on the ends of my fingers are telling me...

Do you look like this?

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:51 am

I found similar situations as I removed two different A4s from my two Tritons. In each case, the after mounting bolts were not able to be removed from the foundations, but they were not glassed in either. There was a serious lack of clearance beneath the foundation at the after corners.

This was the engine foundation in #100. Gee, I sure miss that.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:48 pm

Do you look like this?

Some days I wish I did. It would be so handy sometimes to see what I was working on. And just where did you find that picture? Surely not while perusing a McMaster & Carr catalog.

Luck was with me today. I spent about half an hour with a pick and screwdriver scraping out 38 years of crud from around the bolt head. The bolt heads (square as they turned out to be, the nuts are hex sided) did indeed have a layer of heavy cloth over them. This one time however I really appreciated the care and craftsmanship that went into the glassing operation, or rather the typical lack of it as is often demonstrated in Tritons. An edge of the glass was loose and with another hour and a pick and a few different sized screwdrivers I was able to work the end loose enough to jam a big screwdriver next to the head pinning it with enough force to torque the nut down. It was quite an acrobatic operation worthy of the U.S. Twister championships but it got done.

As for clearance under the bolts... there is none. The only way to remove them is to cut them. And then to replace the bolts would require...

I was talking over my problem with another boat mechanic (not the chainsaw guy) and he had a couple of creative suggestions for capturing the bolt in order to tighten it down. At the end of the conversation he got an evil look in his eye and said, "well, and if that doesn't work, you can always cut a hole in the bottom (of the boat) and drop the bolts out that way". Really, if you wanted to replace the bolts, that is the only way unless you would rather cut out the engine beds.

So how is the A4 aligned in a Triton? I see the mounting flange on the engine has roughly 3/4 inch holes while the bolts are 3/8 inch allowing some slop ...err.... fine tuning... on the horizontal plane. How about up and down though? I don't see any shims under my engine. Are the engine beds so perfectly installed that the engine, once dropped in, lines up perfectly with the shaft? Or am I going to get another surprise when I disconnect the shaft next week? (gotta remember to buy that prop puller).

The find for the day was the battery cable, where it was routed under (?) the alternator drive pulley, had chaffed in half! I don't think the PO had a working electrical system when I took over.

The deeper I dig the darker it gets... and you know what? I LOVE this stuff. This beats working any day.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:02 pm

bcooke wrote:Are the engine beds so perfectly installed that the engine, once dropped in, lines up perfectly with the shaft?

Yeah, right. We should be so lucky. What's more likely is that the engine is sort of aligned and deemed "gud'nuf", but probably has never truly been meticulously aligned. You may well need some shims when you actually align the engine. Or maybe not. You never know, I guess. Weirder things have happened, but not much.

bcooke wrote:...and you know what? I LOVE this stuff. This beats working any day.

Amen, brother!

Speaking of work, I hope you're not still considering actually going back to real work before you enjoy a summer's cruising on your boat. Surely you can wait till after the cruising season...

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:11 pm

I think I can find enough part time work at the boatyard to keep me going until cruise season. Whether I find enough time to get my boat ready is another question.

Yeah, she will make it, but I don't expect her to be the prettiest girl on the bay this summer. The parties will be on your boat. If you feel like dancing though, I should have plenty of room in my boat since most of the interior is currently removed.

You may well need some shims when you actually align the engine.

Hmmm... I don't have to remove any bolts to install the shims do I?...

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:24 pm

bcooke wrote:The parties will be on your boat.

The parties are always on Tim's boat: he has ice!

Post by **Tim** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:15 am

dasein668 wrote:The parties are always on Tim's boat: he has ice!

Have you learned nothing? The correct answer is: my charming visage and scintillating conversation. (Repeat after me...)

bcooke wrote:Hmmm... I don't have to remove any bolts to install the shims do I?...

Well, the best way, in my book, would be for the bolts to pass through the shims, entrapping them in place. One could probably get by with some other means, but given movement, vibration, and so forth, I wouldn't count on things necessarily remaining in place. And then if you lose your shims, that particular bolt would be loose. Still, I imagine that this is how it is often done in these cases. Not perfect, by any stretch, but probably workable.

Perhaps one could now understand (but not condone) why sloppy installers might avoid such trivial things as engine alignment. It's just such a pain, after all! All that work...

Oh, and note that with that 1" of exposed shaft between the transmission coupling and the stuffing box, engine alignment is even more important than with a longer shaft, since a slight change has a more dramatic and immediate effect. Longer shaft runs are a bit more forgiving to slight shortages in engine alignment. Still, you want the best you can.

Adjustable engine mounts sure make alignment easier.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:29 am

Well, the best way, in my book, would be for the bolts to pass through the shims, entrapping them in place

I agree, though I am not quite ready to cut access holes in the hull to accomplish this. I'm sure you understand :-) I could mount the bolts in the other direction (pointing down) which is probably a good compromise but if the nut were to loosen I probably wouldn't notice until too late... too late?... I have had a loose bolt for who-knows-how-long. Yeah maybe I will mount the bolts in the other direction when it comes to that and just schedule a yearly torque check on the bolts to make sure everything stays okay. Placing those nuts on the bottom of the aft engine mount bolts can't be that hard can it?...

Adjustable engine mounts sure make alignment easier

I will put that on next winter's project list. Or are you just gloating...

my charming visage and scintillating conversation
my charming visage and scintillating conversation
my charming visage and scintillating conversation
my charming visage and scintillating conversation
my charming visage and scintillating conversation
my charming visage and scintillating conversation
...

-Britton

Post by **dasein668** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:24 pm

Tim wrote:
dasein668 wrote:The parties are always on Tim's boat: he has ice!
Have you learned nothing? The correct answer is: my charming visage and scintillating conversation. (Repeat after me...)

Oh, right, right. The Alexseal fumes must be screwing with my memory...

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:03 pm

I gave up on the whole notion of shimming and scootching to align the engine to the shaft. I went the other way around, aligning the shaft to the engine.

Remove cutless bearing.
Oversize the hole a bit with a curved-face file.
Coat new cutless bearing in wax.
Install shaft to engine and bearing over shaft.
Inject thickened epoxy around the bearing.
After epoxy cures, remove the bearing again.
Drill and tap holes in the newly-epoxied stern tube for setscrews.
Reinstall bearing.

I won't pretend that a wine glass on the bridge deck won't show a ripple, but for a 40 year old engine with a 40 year old shaft in a 40 year old hull, this got things well into "good 'nuf" range.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:23 pm

Why was there a battery cable anywhere near the alternator drive pulley?
Where is the battery?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:36 am

Align the bearing to the engine instead of the engine to the bearing. Now THAT is a technique I haven't heard before. This is one of those brilliant ideas that keep me coming to this forum. And the scintillating dialogues of course. Hopefully, as I have been lucky so far, after disconnecting the shaft everything will look pretty good "as is". When owning an old boat it helps to have an optimistic outlook. I will keep you posted... as if you ever doubted that!

As for the battery cable. This is(was) the positive battery cable that ran from the battery mounted in the box just forward of the engine, up behind (and a little too closely) the engine to go to a battery switch mounted on the bulkhead just forward of the bridge deck and over the engine. There was another battery mounted in the port cockpit locker and suspect that is the one that was used more often. I kid you not that the cable was completely chewed in half. Had the switch been thrown to this battery the sparks and smoke must have been impressive.

As to why the cable was routed that way... "Why" is a word that comes up often when contemplating this boat's maintenance history. It appears as though I have at least two sets of wires for every device mounted in the boat (easier to rewire than troubleshoot I guess), every device mounted after the initial build was wired directly to the battery instead of a bus (for simplicity of installation I suppose), and I noticed yesterday that there are apparently NO wires going to the navigation lights. I wonder where they got to? Since the very nice looking dodger that came with the boat completely covers the stock Triton navigation lights I guess it doesn't matter much anyways.

My diagonal cutters have been busy recently...

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:33 am

Since I'll be installing a new stern tube, I also plan to align the shaft to the engine in the Daysailor installation. The engine is so placed as to be possible to align it to the shaft the traditional way, but with the need for a new tube, I figured long ago that it would be easier to bolt the shaft in place, complete with bearing, etc., and simply glass the tube in the opening when it was properly aligned. It's a little more challenging without the new tube, but if there's room to ream out the existing tube a bit, as described above, it would work just as well. Triton stern tubes are rarely things of incredible quality and structural strength, so beware of that. Yours might look like this inside:

I doubt you'll ever see perfect alignment given the complexities of the Triton's engine installation. Get it close, and you'll never notice. Absolute perfection in engine alignment is something that eludes virtually everyone; being within twice the specified tolerance is usually excellent in practice. I'd bet 99% of sailboats aren't aligned within that 0.003" range that all the books so highly tout.

This is not an excuse to not try for the best, but it's also important to realize the inherent limitations of the process to avoid driving yourself crazy.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun May 08, 2005 10:30 pm

Okay, I am brainstorming again.

If I relocate the A4 transmission control shifter-thingy on the Triton, does anyone know of a suitable replacement side mounted control arm. My initial search seems to indicate that most retail controls won't work with the A4 and it seems a little late to be contemplating fabricating an original design.

-Britton