Triton Brass windows

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Skipper Dan
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Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Are the Brass window frames a problem on the Triton? Do they leak if installed correctly? Are they strong enough to stand heavy weather without storm covers? I was going to fasten one big piece of Lexan over the whole side but after reading an article about just this thing and how it is not the best way because of the sun I may go back to the Brass window frames. Or is a full piece of Lexan fastened with a windshield installation kit better?

Dan
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Triton106 »

Dan,

I think you are going to be getting a lot of diverse opinions on this topic. I believe James Baldwin installed 1/2 inch polycarbonate glass (or could be acrylic - I need to double check) over his large fixed ports without the bronze frames during his second circumnavigation and did not feel that he needed storm shutter over them. Again, you will be getting differing opinions but for me if it is good enough for a two time circumnavigator it is good enough for me. It's true both polycarbonate and acrylic deteriorate over time under UV rays but that happens regardless if you install them with or without frames.

Note, referring to polycarbonate or acrylic by their trade names lexan and plexyglass is banned on this forum. As a matter of fact I may already be in trouble for saying it :-)

Best luck,

Ray
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hirilondë »

Triton106 wrote: Note, referring to polycarbonate or acrylic by their trade names lexan and plexyglass is banned on this forum. As a matter of fact I may already be in trouble for saying it :-)
LOL, I don't know that it will get you banned, but if people are going to engage in technical discussions they really should learn the proper names and characteristics of the materials they are talking about.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Triton106 wrote:Dan,
It's true both polycarbonate and acrylic deteriorate over time under UV rays but that happens regardless if you install them with or without frames.

Best luck,

Ray
I understand about the deterioration factor. I was referring to the leakage factor. I had just read in an article, (I will see if I can relocate it) that because of the black sealant used when sealing the window :-) to the cabin. It never really has a chance to stay sealed because of the intense heat of the southern climate.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hirilondë »

Skipper Dan wrote: I had just read in an article, (I will see if I can relocate it) that because of the black sealant used when sealing the window :-) to the cabin. It never really has a chance to stay sealed because of the intense heat of the southern climate.
I don't know that black sealant is an issue. I have done many ports with black, and in some cases there is no mechanical fastening, and I haven't found heat to be a problem.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Figment »

The issue may not be the color of the sealant in the hot climate, the issue may be the very different rates of thermal expansion between the metal frame and the plastic/glass.
Use a sealant that gives, not one that grabs.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

I found it. "Tinted Lexan against a black surface: This is a combination that will never stop leaking in Florida or the Gulf coast simply because the black absorbs too much heat from the sun and the rate of expansion is too high to permit a seal. The only solution is DON'T USE BLACK MATERIALS. "

You can read the whole article here. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/WindowRepair.htm click on the other link at the bottom of that page and it takes you to the first article. I thought it was worth reading.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Triton106 »

"Tinted Lexan against a black surface: This is a combination that will never stop leaking in Florida or the Gulf coast simply because the black absorbs too much heat from the sun and the rate of expansion is too high to permit a seal. The only solution is DON'T USE BLACK MATERIALS. "
I think Dave Pascoe maybe referring to the a black aluminum frame or black cabin side (he is primarily a power boat guy) and not black sealant but I cannot be sure. My philosophy is when in doubt take the conservative approach which in this case points to using white sealant. I don't know why you would want to use black sealant in the first place since most of the cabin sides are painted white.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hirilondë »

Triton106 wrote: I don't know why you would want to use black sealant in the first place since most of the cabin sides are painted white.
There are some good looking effects using black sealant, especially without frames.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Triton106 »

There are some good looking effects using black sealant, especially without frames.
Right Dave, I have seen some that did exactly that and they are beautiful (Dave Wilson of Answer is one example). In this case since the glass is tinted I assumed (probably incorrectly) that is not the intent.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hirilondë »

I can't say one way or the other for sure whether using black sealant is an issue. I sincerely doubt it based on having used it many, many times. This is another case where somebody had a bad experience and has decided he knows definitively what the source of the problem is. It is people like this that have prompted me to use the signature I use here.

One of the best things about polycarbonate is that it is extremely dimensionally stable over a wide temperature range. http://www.bisphenol-a.org/human/polyplastics.html Even though I am not a big fan of the technique I have installed many fixed lights using no mechanical fastening or capture at all, just the sealant. I have used black Sikaflex 291-LOT to secure and seal smoked polycarbonate into recesses from the outside on several boats. The black sealant creates the illusion of a frame when viewed from a distance. It looks rather nice in a modern boat (assuming modern boats look nice at all).

Do what ya gotta do, but let's be careful about what we say about stuff we have limited knowledge of.
Dave Finnegan
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Rachel »

Triton106 wrote: I believe James Baldwin installed 1/2 inch polycarbonate glass (or could be acrylic - I need to double check) over his large fixed ports without the bronze frames during his second circumnavigation and did not feel that he needed storm shutter over them. Again, you will be getting differing opinions but for me if it is good enough for a two time circumnavigator it is good enough for me.
Just a couple of notes:

1) James did re-use his port frames, but through-bolted them and installed thicker, polycarbonate lenses. He notes this on his "About Atom" page. I've also read where he wrote about it in more detail, but can't remember exactly where (maybe the NTA page).

Replaced cabin windows with 3/8" Lexan and thru-bolted frames.

http://atomvoyages.com/atom/aboutatom.htm

This photo shows the port frames on Atom:

Image

2) Although there are many Triton differences from boat to boat, I think that on all of the Tritons that used "gold/brown" metal port frames, those frames are bronze and not brass (there were frameless versions on some West Coast boats, and late-model East Coast boats used something "silver".... maybe Marinium?).

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by gone2ddogs »

The window frames on my '59 Triton are silver, looks like Aluminum. Is this an early Triton thing, or did someone change the frames?

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Rachel »

I knew there would be an inconsistency! :D

I thought that all the early Triton ports (that had frames) were bronze, but if there is any rule it is that no two are alike, it seems. Still, I would be a bit surprised if there were original aluminum ports on a 1959 Triton. Maybe chromed bronze? Or replacements?

Can you post photos?

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Triton106 »

I stand corrected about Atom's windows. Here is what James wrote about it on NTA website:
I use to place heavy plywood shutters over Atom's cabin windows before each offshore passage because I worried about their strength.

Several years ago I removed the cabin windows and replaced them with 10 mm lexan. But first, when I had the frames out, I sealed the gap between cabin top and cabin liner with thickened epoxy. I did this to stop future leaks as well as to build up the width of the cabin side for the thicker windows to fit properly in their frames. The bolt holes on the inside of the frames were then drilled through the outside of the frames so that they could be thru-bolted. I countersunk the holes on the outside of the frames and inserted flathead 6 mm machine screws with cap nuts on the inside. These windows are very strong and I don't carry those awkward shutters anymore.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by gone2ddogs »

Definitely not chromed bronze. The opening ports in the main cabin are aluminum but the smaller ones in the head and V-berth are bronze. It's possible they where changed.

Image
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Rachel posting photos of good looking boats with pretty girls standing on them is not nice...when mine is not yet in the water.

So I've changed my mind three time during this post. Time to get out the CAD program and do a mock up. I thought 1/2" sounded kind of thick. I am still leaning towards one solid sheet of Bronze tint Lexan covering both windows. I wanted to do the same thing to the inside with clear but I am afraid of the condensation between the two. I think this would make for a very strong cabin side as well as give the most protection from leakage.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Rachel »

Dan,

I happen to have a photo of a similar boat with something like you propose and I thought you might like to see it. This is "Que Onda," an early sixties S & S-designed Columbia 29, in the Cruiser's Anchorage in San Diego. Bill, the owner, cruised south as far as Ecuador in her. I don't know specifically how the arrangement performed (or how it was carried out), as although I met him there in San Diego, from then on we did not cross paths, but instead it turned out that friends of mine became friends of his and I heard about his travels that way.

On the other hand, I never heard anything negative about the set-up either.

Here is Que Onda:

Image

Image

And here is the Columbia 29 without any "overwindows":

Image

Image
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Thanks, That is a little extreme maybe going a little too far. That is why it is always good to do a line drawing first. I think on the Triton I can leave more white cabin top showing and still incorporate the lines into the window cover.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Figment »

Rachel wrote:Dan,

I happen to have a photo of a similar boat with something like you propose and I thought you might like to see a good way to ugly-up a boat with otherwise nicely harmonious lines. This is "Que Onda," an early sixties S & S-designed Columbia 29, in the Cruiser's Anchorage in San Diego.....
You had a little typo in there, Rachel.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by tikvah59 »

I believe Britton did a survey at one point that attempted to document some differences between Tritons including the materials used to make the ports. My Triton (c. 1960, also a yawl) has bronze deadlight (fixed port) frames along with the more primitive bronze opening ports. I purchased a set of ports from Triton 407 which were chromed bronze and much more refined than those that came on my boat.

One of the challenges with the bronze frames is that it's easy to strip the screws, and you may not always realize they are stripped until you're trying to assemble the ports. I have a couple of screw holes (on the outside frames) that I need to drill through, tap and fill with longer screws. I think there's a pretty good description of how to get the deadlights installed on Tim's Triton 387 site.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Update, I am going with the Bronze frames. I am going to use Lexan tinted even though I may have to replace them. I want to see how long they last and to what degree they fade out. I will seal the lights to the frame with 5200 then affix the frame to the opening the same way. The inside then will just be screwed on. (I checked all the screws to make sure they held good). I am going to have a second set of acrylic made up for an emergency to just set in from the inside. That way if the Lexan does not stand up I have a set ready to go. Something to do while I'm stranded out in the calm with no land insight and no juice in the batteries :-).

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hirilondë »

Skipper Dan wrote: I will seal the lights to the frame with 5200 then affix the frame to the opening the same way.
I just have to ask: Why are you going to use 5200? Have you considered how much fun taking them apart will be?
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

I have a tool that you use to remove windshields it is not all that difficult. If it can cut urethane I think it should cut 5200. I want this as strong as possible and I do not want it to leak. I will give up a little fade or yellow in time vs leaking. I hate leaks. The other way to do it is with a rotozip tool from the inside and just remove the glass part. Like routing out again not very hard but a little more messy. With a little help and a vacuum cleaner it may even be not all that messy.

Dan
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Tim »

Don't use 5200: it's an adhesive, not a sealant.

Or, use it, but remember these posts someday in the future when (WHEN) you need to rebed. :<) Some of us have actually had to remove things installed with 5200 and might know a thing or two about it.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Tim wrote:Don't use 5200: it's an adhesive, not a sealant.

Or, use it, but remember these posts someday in the future when (WHEN) you need to rebed. :<) Some of us have actually had to remove things installed with 5200 and might know a thing or two about it.
Well, I tried to ask in the very first post. I got a lot of opinions but never and answer. I figured the 5200 was the same as urethane which is what we use on windshields. I also use it on windows in planes when I install them. I could just use that I suppose.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hirilondë »

5200 is a polyurethane, not a urethane. Don't ask me to describe the chemical difference, I haven't got a clue. But 5200 is one of the strongest and most tenaciously adhesive materials known to man. If you need to make something stay some where forever this is your adhesive. But if you ever expect to get it off, look for something else.

If you look in the "Technical Data and Boat Nerdery" section of the forum you will find a "Sealant Comparison Chart" sticky posted in the second slot. This compares the characteristics of many marine sealants/adhesives sold by Jamestown Distributors. Note in particular the tensile strength of products. 100 PSI is a mild adhesive. 300 is a quite strong adhesive. 600 or more wants to stay some where forever. It may be that the automotive goop you are familiar with is quite acceptable for the job. Most product names were invented by salesman, which means the name has no value at all in determining if it is the one for your job. You may want to investigate if it is compatible with plastics though. Some adhesives, like polysulfides are not.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Skipper Dan »

Thanks Dave, the urethane I was talking about was Automotive windshield adhesive. We used to use a ribbon until this stuff hit the market. It is quite messy and very hard to get the windshield off compared to the ribbon, but it stops all leaking. I guess one just uses what he is used to out of fear.

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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by Hulukupu »

The most recent issue (August?) of Practical Sailor also has an article comparing sealants and adhesives. I found it helpful.
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by captphil416 »

Wish I had found this site sooner. While doing an Atlantic circle I too experienced constant leakage. As soon as I returned to Solomons Md. I built up the cabin sides and installed opening ports. These alter the appearance, but they do not leak. Sorry no pictures, I am computer illiterate Capt Phil hull # 416 Deep Blue
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Re: Triton Brass windows

Post by earlylight »

captphil416
I just drove past Deep Blue in the yard yesterday PM. All is well and she is just waiting for your return in the spring. Hope you had a good trip back to Colorado.
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