Triton Masthead vs Fractional

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Fractional or Masthead Rig for a Triton?

Stay with Fractional
18
72%
Go with the Masthead
7
28%
 
Total votes: 25

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Triton Masthead vs Fractional

Post by TritonSailor »

Hello Everyone,

I have changed what course of action I will be taking when it comes to my Triton. Thanks to some very wise people that are patrons of this forum, I will be doing what it takes to get the boat in the water and sailing, then find out the changes needed. Thank you Brian!!! The list is now significantly shorter, but it's still a long list:). I will be purchasing a Harken Mk IV Unit 1 Furler With that said, I have an opportunity to go to a masthead rig or keep it as a fractional rig. I know I've mentioned it before, but just in case somebody asks, I will be doing lots of offshore sailing. There is at least one nice slow circumnavigation in my future! I just wanted to know, based on that info, if a masthead rig would be more beneficial or should I stay with the fractional rig?

Thanks Everyone

Jeff
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Triton Masthead vs Fractional

Post by Ganges #363 »

Jeff, I voted for fractional rig.

The basic reason for me is that is how the boat was designed, and even though there were later factory installed masthead rigs, it seems to me that the mast placement, etc. was designed for the original rig.

In practical terms, the fractional rig requires fewer sails (jibs). Masthead rigs really require a head sail changes to adjust to different wind speeds. In a fractional rig, those adjustments are made mostly with the main...trim, reefing. A fractional also flies a smaller spinnaker, which is easier to handle.

The masthead has by definition a larger jib, and that implies larger winches, blocks, etc., and the corresponding manpower to operate them. The masthead rigs were really designed for racing.

My first boat was a Folkboat on SF Bay. The class rules demand a working jib, no spinnakers, and no reefing gear on the main. That fractional rig sails through all kinds of conditions...heavy and light...and does well. A masthead rig is not as versatile.

You don't seem to be planning to do a lot of racing with a fairly large crew doing sail changes. A fractional rig performs well over a wide range of conditions without sail changes and is easier to manage. I'd say that is the choice for a nice, easy circumnavigation.
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Post by Rachel »

Jeff,

Could you clarify something for me?:

Are you talking about using your current mast and potentially changing it over to a masthead rig?

Or are you talking about using your current mast if you remain with a fractional rig, and a different mast if you change to a masthead rig?

I'm not going to vote in the poll, as I don't really feel qualified to, but if you're thinking about converting your existing mast to a masthead rig, I think that might "thicken the plot" a bit.

Rachel
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Post by Tim »

Fractional. This is the boat you bought: don't mess with the basics till you have a lot more experience with the boat, and boating in general.

If I could vote for it more than once, I would. (Actually, I probably could...but I didn't.)
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Post by Hirilondë »

There are so many things to fix on an old boat. Is your mast broke? I try not to fix stuff that aint broke, at least not until I have little to do and I'm really bored.
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Post by TritonSailor »

Thanks for the responses. Rachel, I have a fractional rig, I would have gotten a different masthead to make the change. I don't know if I could've made that work, but it was a thought. I think that keeping it the way it was designed is the way to go. Since I was putting up a new furler and had possible options, I thought I would find out what the experts thought.

Thanks again
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Post by Triton 185 »

I try not to fix stuff that aint broke, at least not until I have little to do and I'm really bored.
This is great advice. (Must be why my Titon rebuilding is not done yet.)
"The more you know, the less you need."
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Post by Rachel »

Jeff,

I asked because I'm not even sure you could use the stock fractional-rig mast for a masthead rig. It doesn't matter now, since it sounds like you're sticking with the fractional rig, but I suspect a masthead change only would not have been enough, and you might have needed a new spar (or at least an engineering consult with a rigger).

The fractional rig is a neat Triton identifier when you see it out sailing :)

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Post by Triton106 »

I vote fractional for the reasons already stated by others. I would also add that I am considering one day potentially adding a bowsprit to my Triton to correct excessive weatherhelm. In that case I would attach the forestay from the masthead to the bowsprit and keep the current forestay for storm jibs to hank on. The existance of the jumpstrut will alleviate the need for runners (I think?)
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Post by Bluenose »

I also vote for the fractional rig. For many of the same reasons and some additional.

History - If that is how she started, stay with a good thing.

Aesthetic - Obviously this is very subjective, but I think sailboats look just a bit nicer with a fractional rig.

Flexibility - I think that the fractional rig is far more flexible in how you can tune it than the mast head equivalent. It is easily powered up and powered down. It puts more sail higher up where the wind can be a bit stronger.

The problem that I see with fractional rigs, especially with boats that aren't excessively canvased, is the ability to add a lot of sail when the wind is really light. If I was thinking of a change of the magnitude of replacing the rigging and all the masthead sails I would go a different route.

I would seek professional guidance to beef up your current mast to add a mast head drifter or asymmetrical on a retractable bowsprit on one of the newer spinnaker furlers. This would be an on or off type of sail used only in light air. No tacking or gybing. Roll her in tack or gybe, pull her back out. In stout air retract the bowsprit, lower the aym, roll it up and store it below and go with you easily depower fractional rig.

I know that there is a chunk of change in my two cents worth, but way below what it would cost to replace the rig and all the sails in going from a fractional to a mast head rig. In addition, who really wants to short tack a 150 mast head genoa in 15 kts of air. On Bolero with her two part jib sheet it is very easy to short tack her fractional working jib without using the winches at all. I think I really only use the cabintop winches to keep from thinking I wasted my money.

Cheers, Bill
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Post by Hirilondë »

Bluenose wrote:Flexibility ..........It puts more sail higher up where the wind can be a bit stronger.
Huh? Am I missing something? I understand how a fractional rigged mast can be bent to tune sail shape. But how does having a forestay that doesn't go up as high as a masthead rig do that?
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Post by Bluenose »

Hirilondë wrote:
Bluenose wrote:Flexibility ..........It puts more sail higher up where the wind can be a bit stronger.
Huh? Am I missing something? I understand how a fractional rigged mast can be bent to tune sail shape. But how does having a forestay that doesn't go up as high as a masthead rig do that?
In order to maintain a similar sail area fractional rigs often need to increase the height of the mast. In the case of the Triton, and I am no Triton expert, it look looks like the mast is a few feet taller with the fractional rig. Granted this may be a small change, but you do end up with a taller and higher aspect ratio sail.

And maybe a better way to express what I was thinking was that you actually get to have sail higher up. I, subjectively, think this can help when sailing near the Islands where I sail.

Just my two cents.
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Post by Hirilondë »

Bluenose wrote: In the case of the Triton, and I am no Triton expert, it look looks like the mast is a few feet taller with the fractional rig.
Hmm, never thought of it that way, or compared mast heights between fractional and masthead versions of the same boat.
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Post by kendall »

My impression is that the masthead rig is only about 2ft shorter than the fractional rig, with a slightly longer boom.

Mine is an east coast masthead, and I've never seen a west coast of either variety so can't say it applies to all tritons

Seems like the masthead would put more sail up high since the jib goes all the way up. The only specs I can get to right now is from bacon sails, (built new computer, data's still on old one) which shows I=36 P=31.5 (MH) vs 30.25 and 33 (F)
(assuming boom height is the same for both, that would only make the overall difference 1.5 feet)

I bought mine abandoned without sails, and did a lot of measuring and comparing specs at various online used sail sites, and bacon's was pretty much spot on in their measurements.

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Post by bcooke »

I think the idea of a fractional being higher is that because the jib doesn't go all the way up, the whole rig is designed higher to get the same sail area.

The Triton was designed as a fractional and Pearson and Aeromarine offered mastheads as an option. Aeromarine in particular customized rigs, antagonizing the relationship with Pearson. In the spirit of the day, I think there was some flexibility in the final measurement. I have never heard of an official masthead spec height. But that is just me.

#397, an east coast built variant reported a masthead rig 35' 2". Its the only measured masthead rig that I know of. Take the measurement with a grain of salt because the measured fractional rigs vary a bit. 36'10" is by far the most common but I have heard reports a foot or so in either direction. With only one measured masthead rig known to me I don't have enough statistical reliability to go on.

There are plenty of PO modifications on Tritons which make figuring out the 'correct' height that much more difficult. Consult a professional rigger and yacht designer would be my best opinion. Rig design is both an art and science, not learned over a weekend, and is often best left to the pros. Unless you want to throw tons of money at experimentation and just hope for the best.
The existance of the jumpstrut will alleviate the need for runners (I think?)
The upper jumper struts support the front of the fractionally rigged mast above the forestay. Runners (I assume we are talking running backstays) support the backside. You would still need jumpers if you had running backstays. If you have a masthead forestay then the jumpers need to go as they would interfere with the masthead jib in a big way.

With two tensioned forestays, the backstay comes under more strain and needs to be examined carefully. This is where the professional opinion comes in. Once you start changing one thing then everything else is affected and needs to be re-examined. Carl Alberg knew rig design so I would make changes with caution and clear reason.

James Baldwin does the masthead and fractional thing but I don't believe he does both at the same time. When the masthead is in use, the normal backstay is sufficient. When the fractional mid-foredeck forestay is up, then running backstays are used to balance the change in forestay tension moment. I am not 100% sure about that though. James has been pretty helpful to me in the past and if you want to copy something like what he has I would email him directly.

oh, and to add my opinion to the original question:

Masthead or Fractional doesn't make a lick of difference to the 'offshore performance' of a sailing boat. Whatever that is. The boat doesn't know how much water is under it. Both rigs have proven themselves millions of times over millions of ocean miles. Its a non-issue.
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Post by TritonSailor »

Keeping with the fractional rig, if I have a furler, do I still have room for an inner forestay. I am new to sailing, the reason I pose the question is because I don't now if furling the headsail in a heavy wind would be better then putting up a storm sail and fully furling the headsail.

Thanks

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Post by bcooke »

yes.

The furler doesn't change anything.

An inner forestay is a 'nice' feature. It is hardly necessary. Very few ocean crossing Tritons have them. A stock Triton will cross oceans. They do it all the time.

When you have experience you might develop an opinion about how you want to set the rig up. But until then I wouldn't worry about changing anything.

If you don't have the experience to know that something needs changing, then you don't have the experience to effectively utilize those changes or choose what those changes should be.
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Post by TritonSailor »

Thanks Britton.
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Post by Figment »

Masthead.
Should it take you 5-10 years to exit long island sound for your nice long slow circumnavigation, you'll appreciate the extra canvas.
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Post by Bluenose »

bcooke wrote:yes.

The furler doesn't change anything.

An inner forestay is a 'nice' feature. It is hardly necessary. Very few ocean crossing Tritons have them. A stock Triton will cross oceans. They do it all the time.

When you have experience you might develop an opinion about how you want to set the rig up. But until then I wouldn't worry about changing anything.

If you don't have the experience to know that something needs changing, then you don't have the experience to effectively utilize those changes or choose what those changes should be.
I think that Britton hit the nail on the head with his response about experience. But it also cause me to think that I should qualify my advice. I have no, zero, nada offshore or circumnavigation experience. Perhaps others on this board do have applicable experience sailing and outfitting a Triton or like boat for ocean voyages. I would be finding and listen to them.

Cheers, Bill
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Post by TritonSailor »

Thank you for everyone's insight. Britton's correct, I have limited experience. That's why I ask questions. I have seen other boats setup with an inner forestay, didn't know I needed experience to ask the question. It is all about gaining insight from the ones who know...right?
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Post by jollyboat »

Jeff, It looks like you have made up your mind on this question and of course fractional is the correct way to go. The Triton, can be set up with many sails. Getting sail area on a Triton is not a problem. You have heard from many of your sailing brothers here on the forum and several of the suggestions or thoughts were right on the money. Leave the boat as a fractional rig and from there you can go crazy with your sail combinations, including mast head hoist, free flying luff headsails, including the Code Zeros, Solents, Jib Tops, asymmetrical spinnakers and all kinds of reachers, heavy, medium and light air sails to keep you moving as best can be done in the air that you have. In as far as changing the rig at all for blue water work, I would only add check stays which do not need to be used all the time, are easy to install, inexpensive and help a lot to keep the rig from pumping in chop or when beating to windward. Tell you what - you get you boat in the water and I will show you so many sail options on a real live, sailing show and tell, that your mind will be stripped. - Now - for heavens sake - stay focused and prep the bottom for paint!
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Re: Triton Masthead vs Fractional

Post by captphil416 »

Before going offshore I made the modification contemplated by Ray Chang. An 18 inch anchor platform was added, and the stay was extended to the masthead. The genoa or drifter are hanked to the mashead stay, and either the working jib or the storm jib are carried on the inner stay. These cca type boats like a lot of headsail, and I find that I sail most of the time with 2 or 3 reefs in the main. For offshore work I like to keep Deep Blue on her feet and sacrfice some speed in favor of comfort, and rig longivity. The twin forestays were a godsend in the trades, where the working jib and the storm jib were polled out port and starboard. The anchor platform sure helps maintain topside appearance, while keeping anchoring options handy. So go ahead Ray, you will be very happy with the results. Phil Deep Blue #416
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Re: Triton Masthead vs Fractional

Post by Carl-A259 »

Did the jumpers stay or go when running the stay to the masthead?
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Re: Triton Masthead vs Fractional

Post by captphil416 »

Carl; I left the jumper struts as is, The forward stay is not used in heavy weather conditions. The Genoa and the working jib were stored on the lifelines while underway with short ties, making sail changes both quick and easy. I am not a rigger, but this arrangment worked for me. The decision to add an anchor platform just suggested an extra stay. Have fun Phil
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