Looking at buying a triton, questions.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:36 pm

Thats the sail plan, when the file is bigger the numbers are able to be read.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:29 pm

Got some more questions...

What is the bridge clearance on a triton? Its got a 33 foot stick by the plans I've got, but I'm not sure what it is from the water line to the top of the trunk.

What kind of fuel mileage should I expect? Its 320 miles from Annapolis to Oriental by my rough calculations, a fair amount of which will be in the ditch.

Since the head is currently without holding tank, where is the best spot for one?

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:08 pm

What is the bridge clearance on a triton?

There is a thread around here somewhere asking about Triton mast heights. I think most of them come in around 36'10" for the sloop rigs and maybe 30' for the yawl rigged boats. Nothing is set in stone with Tritons and there is always the chance the mast isn't original so there really is no way of knowing other than measuring it yourself. For bridge clearance I would want something over 40' taking the topsides height into account. If my memory serves most of those bridges are either really high or really low so hopefully it will be a pretty clear cut decision for you either way.

What kind of fuel mileage should I expect?

Conservatively, for an Atomic Four, figure a gallon an hour. At a comfortable cruise speed I have calculated closer to 0.6-0.7 gallons an hour but that will depend on a lot of factors. A gallon an hour should keep you safe unless you run wide open throttle the whole time (you will easily reach hull speed at lower throttle settings)

Since the head is currently without holding tank, where is the best spot for one?

You will get a lot of different answers to that one. The most common choices I think are under the V-berth, either along one side or under the 'filler' piece, behind the head in the small closet area, or under the port settee. There really isn't a lot of room and your choice will depend a lot on how much you really think you will need it and how many other items are competing for the same space. And then you could relocate the toilet into the V-berth area as has been discussed around here and that opens up a lot of interesing possibilities. Keeping the head where it is though, I would say close nearby and don't expect to store two weeks' worth of waste water.

-Britton

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:10 pm

Britton,

Thanks. I'll get a jerry can or two, and top up the tank.

I'll drag a tape up the halyard and add a fudge factor too... sure would hate to give the stick a hair cut on a bridge!

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:37 am

You haven't lived till you've heard the sound of a VHF antenna, mounted atop the mast, pinging off the bottom of a bridge's I-beam supports. :)

Good luck!

Post by **Tim** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:13 am

I know I'm answering late, but the 33' measurement you're reading on your plans isn't the mast length: it's the designed luff dimension of the mainsail.

The extrusion is around 37' in length, so bridge clearance is at least 40' (including the roughly 3' height of the step off the water). 45' minimum clearance would be a safe fudge factor.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:18 pm

Thanks guys,

45 is the number I've been using, as there are some creeks with powerlines strung at that height!

Boat is now in Norfolk... big storms expected for the weekend.
Any suggestions for the ditch on down to Beaufort?

Thanks,

Zach

Post by **Tim** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:35 am

I'd rather hit a bridge than a power line!

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:13 pm

Absolutely!

Hey... for the life of me I can't find the fill point for the water tank! I've gone nuts looking for it.

Do any of you guys have a spare hand crank for the atomic four, or have a sketch of one? I had to set the dwell with a meter since my finally tuned starter button finger couldn't find the top of the cam!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:00 pm

I have one I could take a photograph/measurements of tomorrow, unless someone else comes up with one before then.

Rachel

Post by **Tim** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:41 am

There should be a small deck plate located right on top of the water tank--about 1" - 1-1/2" in diameter.

I don't seem to have a picture, but if you remove all the loose plywood from the v-berth filler/seat area, you should locate the fill.

I plumbed a new fill up to the foredeck, since I thought it was inconvenient to bring the hose belowdecks.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:55 am

Zach,

Here are photos of two crank handles. One of them did fit on my A-4, but when I took the photos I wasn't sure which one, so I included both of them. I also managed to get on the boat without a tape measure, but the roll of blue tape is a 2" width roll for scale. Please excuse the blurry images, my hope is that they will still provide you with the info you need. Just let me know if I can take further (actual) measurements or photos.

Rachel

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:29 am

Important to note that the top handle in Rachel's photo is a "tuning-only" handle, never ever ever to be used to actually crank-start the engine, as it isn't cut to disengage from the pins when the engine takes off.

Moyer sells a tuning handle for $25.

Of course you could just take off the flywheel cover and do it the old-fashioned way.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:15 am

Note that the teeth on the crank are angled and rounded a bit. This is to allow the crank to fall out of the flywheel quickly and easily. In fact, if you turn the flywheel a few times slowly with the crank, you will notice it falls out. This is so it doesn't get stuck and take your arm off if the engine starts.

As a Ford Model-A collector friend of mine instructed me: Remember to keep your thumb on the OUTSIDE of the business end of the crank. Best advice I can pass along.

The crank really does work and got me out of a jam once!

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:19 pm

So the top one is a tuning-only handle and the bottom one is a starting handle? Both for the A-4?

R.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:20 pm

I'd imagine that they both will work on an A4, and a handful of other small engines as well.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:35 pm

Are you sure the top handle isn't for a roller furling boom?

I wouldn't try and start an A4 with the one on top for the reasons I stated re the curved teeth.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:45 pm

Ceasar Choppy wrote:Are you sure the top handle isn't for a roller furling boom?

Ah, perhaps that's what is (was) for. I thought it looked a little bit delicate for starting the A-4, but I thought I'd post them both just to be sure. So it looks like the bottom (chunkier) handle is what Zach is looking for. The paint and finish level on that one do match the engine better.

Rachel

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:52 pm

Top handle is absolutely NOT for starting an A4, it's an arm-breaker for sure. I still think it could be used as a tuning handle.

Roller boom gear I've seen generally use a square-key winch handle similar to those used on reel winches. Other than the cutsey little end-boom flip-out dealies of course.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:04 am

Good info to know! Sure wouldn't like to get whacked by a hand crank...

Boats broken down! Stuck in Coinjock, NC. Prop shaft is not turning, has slid back and jammed the rudder.

Transmission shifts gears, and the gears inside spin. The whole assembly moves fore and aft when working the shift lever, with a metalic click... as if the transmission shaft has broken internally.

The hub on the shaft is still connected to the prop shaft. The prop shaft will spin if I hold a lot] of pressure against the shift lever.

Had a diver hop over and see if the prop had sheared the key, he hammered backward on the prop and it slid out. Prior to that the prop shaft would spin when engine was in gear.

Any thoughts?

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:09 am

She has an early atomic four: Type UJ Serial 73896.

Currently rudder is jammed with shaft, I really don't like the idea of hammering the shaft forward to clear the rudder... but the other option is dropping an outboard bracket on the back to get her home.

Thanks guys

Zach

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:52 am

Zach wrote:Good info to know! Sure wouldn't like to get whacked by a hand crank...

Boats broken down! Stuck in Coinjock, NC. Prop shaft is not turning, has slid back and jammed the rudder.

Transmission shifts gears, and the gears inside spin. The whole assembly moves fore and aft when working the shift lever, with a metalic click... as if the transmission shaft has broken internally.

The hub on the shaft is still connected to the prop shaft. The prop shaft will spin if I hold a lot] of pressure against the shift lever.

Had a diver hop over and see if the prop had sheared the key, he hammered backward on the prop and it slid out. Prior to that the prop shaft would spin when engine was in gear.

Any thoughts?

First thought: too many pronouns. Be more specific.

WHAT moves fore and aft when working the shift lever? The clutch assembly within the gearbox, or the shaft and coupling?

The clutch is supposed to move, that's how it works. If the shaft and coupling are moving fore and aft you're toast. That thing must be puking oil out the rear seal like a freshman at a kegger.

The diver hammered backward and WHAT slid out? the prop off the shaft, or the shaft out of the coupling?

The prop shaft would spin when the engine was in gear, though the propellor was bound against the rudder? Be more specific about what's spinning and what's not.

The shaft will spin if you put a LOT of pressure on the lever in which direction? The A4 is direct-geared in forward, but clutched in reverse. Forward is forward no matter how much pressure you apply. Reverse can be pressure-dependant if the clutch is out of adjustment. If this is the case then you're only making it worse by forcing it, but adjustment isn't all that difficult.

No you can't just chunk an outboard on the tail and get home. You need to clear the rudder first, even if this means hacksawing the shaft underwater.

Really though it sounds like the shaft "walked" itself backward out of the coupling for some reason. Unbolt the coupling from the engine and feel where the end of the shaft is within. It should be right there at the forward end, maybe a half-inch back at the most.
This will be a most unpleasant task if it hasn't been done in the last few years.

fusto · Post by **fusto** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:56 am

hmm...

The only way for the prop shaft to have changed position fore and aft would be for something to have shifted.
And to impact the rudder, wouldnt the shaft and prop have needed to move aft a number of inches in the rudder aperture?
Could be engine mounts, or maybe the prop shaft has slid out of the coupler on the tranny (check the set screws), or maybe something inside the trans has slipped aft.
Cant think of what though. Especially if you can still get it to turn and you dont hear a bunch of destroyed gears inside.

How much shaft is showing on the output shaft of the tranny before the trans coupler?

On the old A4's I dont think more than an inch or two would be poking out of the back of the trans.
Does it look like anything there has changed?

Could it be the rudder maybe?

Post by **Tim** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:03 pm

Start with the most basic and work forward from there as required. No need to start tearing major things apart without having first checked the basics.

1. As others have said, the first logical thing to check is whether the shaft has moved within the shaft coupling. Given how these things tend to get welded in place with time, this seems unlikely, but it's still more than possible.

2. The propeller shaft shouldn't move forward or backwards when you shift the gears. While the inner workings of the transmission might do this, the shaft is stationary. So if the whole propeller shaft--couplings and all--are moving in this manner, then it sounds like you have a serious problem inside the transmission.

3. It ought to be easy to pull the shaft back into the boat enough to clear your rudder. Pull it in and secure it tightly to prevent it from slipping if you go the outboard motor route. There's not a ton of clearance between the propeller nut and the rudderpost when everything's installed properly, so it would only take an inch or so to cause the nut to hit the rudder.

Beyond these basics, we're into specific Atomic 4 stuff, and I don't have any particular advice.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:16 pm

Man you guys are fast...

The Diver hammered back on the prop, the prop shaft/prop is now jammed against the rudder. There is a 1/8th clean ring around the transmission side of the coupling, which makes me believe it slid out of the transmission... and not the shaft out of the coupling. It lacks a nasty rust ring on the shaft as well...

The inner workings of the tranmission are moving fore and aft, not the shaft. I just adjusted the forward (Lock screw 76 and adjusting collar 28.) and now the shaft rotates when put in gear.

Sounds clutch happened in the bay, and the shaft is diver related.

I'm going to loosen up the set screw on the shaft and see if it'll slide forward... and clear the rudder.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:29 pm

Update:

Grabbed hold of the tiller and put some pressure on it, it moved the whole coupling forward. The tiller movement also moved the transmission housing a small amount side to side.

Going to check engine mounting bolts... etc.

Didn't adjust the clutch properly, doesnt clunk when going into forward when the motor is running. Can watch the coupling slide forward a fraction of an inch when reving up and holding shifter in forward.

Updates will follow as "progress is made."

Zach

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:45 pm

Update: Internet went down at the marina.

What I know... the propeller shaft does not spin when in gear. The coupling does not spin, and with the cover off I can spin the prop shaft by hand and the main shaft of the transmission does not spin.

Bought an outboard bracket and mounted it yesterday, borrowed an outboard and fuel tank... up and running. Docking is a lot easier, even though a traveller track tries to wedge your cheeks apart while operating the outboard...

The rudder rubs on the prop shaft slightly, I vice gripped the shaft and tapped it forward so it no longer locks the rudder... though you can still feel it in the tiller.

Question: Are the engine mounting bolts slotted fore and aft? I'm thinking to slide the engine forward a hair in hopes of the prop shaft clearing the rudder.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:48 pm

Yes they do have some adjustability.

Like the shaft coupling bolts, if those motor mount nuts haven't been touched in the last decade or so, they're a nightmare. The easy way to tell is if they're square or hexagonal. Square nuts are original, hex nuts are replacements, and you owe the guy who replaced them a case of beer.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:19 pm

Yeah, the mounts are not exactly high class precision machined parts.

That said, the engine position isn't your problem. Unless you have a couple of problems manifesting themselves at the same time.

the propeller shaft does not spin when in gear.

So I assume by "in gear" that you feel a positive clunk in the shifter. Otherwise I would think a non-turning shaft means you are not in gear or the engine isn't running. Just curious, do you have the original 2 foot removable bronze shift lever that is directly connected (through linkage) to the transmission or has the shifter been upgraded with a cable linkage type affair? Maybe you have a sloppy or slipping shift cable?...

The coupling does not spin

Does the shaft the coupling is connected to spin? It doesn't sound like it but the coupling on the prop shaft is held in place by a key and a set screw. If the key is missing (anything is possible with old Tritons) then the set screw could easily loosen enough to let the two parts stop turning together.

with the cover off I can spin the prop shaft by hand and the main shaft of the transmission does not spin.

Which cover are we talking about here? The cover on the transmission? That confuses me because you don't need to remove the cover to see the engine output shaft or the prop shaft. Removing the cover just shows the guts of the transmission.

If the transmission shaft is not turning and the prop shaft is then we are definitely talking about a slipping coupling. I never bothered to look and see how the coupling on the engine side of the shafting is held on. Perhaps the same key and set screw design. If the coupling was loose then the shaft could definitely start sliding out (aft) and cause your "hitting the rudder" issue.

Mike wrote:If the shaft and coupling are moving fore and aft you're toast

I would have to agree with that. You might be able to find just the transmission for an A4 and replace it but I have never seen one on its own. Yanmars make a nice upgrade.

(maybe you are not in the mood for humor yet)

Good luck with the rest of your trip!

-Britton

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:06 pm

I popped the cover off to see the guts of the transmission, as nothing was turning when solidly clunked into forward. (5 pound bronze lever)

Just in case anyone wonders... starting up the motor with the cover off causes some oil spray! (Grin)

I'll slide the motor forward and see if it'll gain some clearance. It'll be a few weeks before the engine and transmission get pulled out to see exactly what is going on.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:00 pm

You might be able to find just the transmission for an A4 and replace it but I have never seen one on its own.

I'm 95% sure I have one, believe it or not. I don't know if it works as I never had cause to swap it out. Access to where it's stored is a challenge, but if you pull yours, Zach, and you're sure it's bad, let me know and I'll go check and see if I still have the thing.

Post by **Tim** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:18 am

If you decide, for whatever reason, that a "new" A4 is in your future, I have a really good one here that's available. Fresh water use only; it's pristine, as Atomic 4s go. (Pardon the dust).

From the Triton Kaholee.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:18 pm

Thanks guys

I'll keep you updated as to what broke. I'm pondering yanking the atomic four and leaving the outboard. Think I might have fallen in love with docking her... she feels like half her size with that stern thruster.

Zach

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:07 pm

Update:

Slid the motor forward and did some figuring.

The nut backed off of the transmission side of the flange. The key is sheared. Can't really get a good look at the shafts keyway without sliding the engine forward.

Key was steel... belief is that the atomic four was loosely bolted down, one was missing, two were loose... gave enough stress at the cupling to shear it. Also explains why the packing was so beat up!

Boat is now in Belhaven.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:16 pm

Sucess!

Made it to Morehead City!

Broke a bunch of wire strands in the luff of my working jib... anyone ever run a new wire through an old sail? (Cloth and shape are still ok, feels like the head was left in a puddle of salt water, since thats the only place with rust stains...)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:59 pm

Don't bother with wire. Resupport with vectran or spectra. Almost the same stretch, doesn't mind getting kinked in a sailbag.