Triton sail dimensions

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:52 am

I have an appointment with a local sailmaker tomorrow to evaluate some older sails and discuss what I should consider having onboard.

My Triton came with two spinnakers and when I pulled them out today I realized one was much longer than the other (luff/leach which is it on a symmetrical sail?) Since I know nothing about spinnakers, I have to ask, do they come in different lengths normally? One of mine is approaching 30+' and the other is maybe half that length. Could these both be Triton sails?

Does anyone know of a good source for typical sail dimensions for the Triton 7/8ths rig? I have some Improvement Bulletins that show square footage but not actual dimensions. Maybe square footage is all a real sailmaker needs?

With some luck I think I can just add an assymetrical spinnaker and maybe a storm jib to round out my collection of Main (2 reef points), Genoa, Working Jib. Any thoughts for other useful sails for non-competitive coastal cruising?

-Britton

jhenson · Post by **jhenson** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:29 am

Britton,

I don't know what if these are helpfull, but the Triton rig dimensions are here with other Pearsons:

http://www.baconsails.com/database/boatspec.php

I have a main, 150 and 110 in my basement that I can measure for you, but it will be after I get back from my next trip at work.

Joe

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:35 am

Could be light-air and heavy-air spinnakers. do they feel like they're made of different cloth weights?
Does your masthead have provision for a spin halyard? Perhaps someone was getting ambitious.

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:35 am

Britton,

I've been working the same question since I bought Sophia three years ago and have evolved to the following solution. Sophia came with a smallish genoa (about 150%) on a Harkin rollpin and a traditional main with 2 reefs.

I quickly found that I was unhappy with the performance of the genny when reefed any more than about 20% and was overcanvassed during those brisk 25+ days that I love so much.

I picked up a never been used 110% jib that was a near perfect fit with the right luff tape from Bacon and find that it does the job nicely in anything from about 12 to 30+ after I replaced the original 12" track with a new 48" section to allow for a proper lead when reefed.

I have not yet been motivated by light conditions to swap in the genoa. I am lazy and by the time I start thinking about it, the conditions are really too light for that sail also.

I do think I would be motivated to set something like a Code 0 or a Doyle UPS furled on its own luff. I like the idea of not having to strip the working jib from it's furler and of making the sail changes at the low end of the wind spectrum. I also like the idea that this sail could also serve as the downwind workhorse.

I've not tried out this idea yet, but, for whatever it is worth, I see the approach validated over and over and am pretty settled on the plan.

I think the alternative would be to lose the furler and revert to traditionally hanked on head sails along with an A-sail for working downwind.

Food for thought...

-- Eric

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:55 am

Thanks for the link Joe. It will be a good reference. I was really looking for something basic like foot = 14' leech = ? luff = ? Your link had J #'s and such which I have never taken the time to understand at all but should and will at some point. Don't go to the trouble of measuring your sails. They are a pain to stretch out and measure. I will get the skinny from the sailmaker.

Mike, I thought of that but both sails use the same cloth weight. I do/did/will have a spinnaker halyard at the same point on the mast as the jib halyard. I don't have anything other than the main halyard at the top of the mast.

Eric, I am not familiar with the Code 0 or Doyle UPS but I gather they are light wind sails.

I think you sail in a windier area than I do. I found my genny just right up in Maine last year for about 60% of the time. About 30% of the time I would have liked to have had a big light air sail and for the remainder 10% of the time something smaller for those 20+ knot days.

My boat came with an old furler and I love it and I am nearly a true convert. If I was doing more day/weekend sails I think it is the ideal setup becase it is just so quick and easy to get underway. I am thinking I will keep my old furler and matching genny in storage for just those seasons when I don't expect to be on the water for a month+ at a time and daysailing is what I expect to do the most. For the past few seasons though, I have done very little daysailing and when I do go out I am cruising. When that happens, I really start to appreciate the ability to switch sails to match the conditions and continue on rather than waiting for better conditions. And since while cruising I am not as concerned about getting underway quickly, I can live with the longer start-up times that come from the hank on setup.

Ideally I guess, a roller furler and a stay for hank on sails would be best for me but I am going to stick with the one stay for now.

-Britton

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:27 pm

bcooke wrote:Eric, I am not familiar with the Code 0 or Doyle UPS but I gather they are light wind sails.

I think you sail in a windier area than I do. I found my genny just right up in Maine last year for about 60% of the time. About 30% of the time I would have liked to have had a big light air sail and for the remainder 10% of the time something smaller for those 20+ knot days.

I sail out of Seal Cove in Blue Hill Bay and generally you will find me between Rockland and Roque Island. I doubt my Maine is any windier than yours, though I do tend to stretch the season past Halloween when the air gets quite a bit thicker.

My experience agrees with yours pretty much. I'm sure that a good part of my issue with the genoa was a result of the poor quality of that sail. However, I have found that the 110% provides plenty of power and lets me point higher for a surprising fraction of the range of a genoa. It also reefs down nicely to something like a 70% jib and this lets me stay comfortable when it breezes up.

So this leaves the bottom end of the range of the genoa and the really light air when that sail is too heavy and this is where a sail like the Doyle seems to fit. Doyle's UPS site here...

So if the scheme works out, I get the wind handling range I want with just two sails, and I keep the afternoon quickie convenience of a roller furled head sail. I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I have two wooden daysailers that both have hank on jibs, and I love the routine of it. I consider myself a bit of a rookie and I've no experience with the arrangement. However, I'm convinced that the approach has merit and is worth consideration.

-- E

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:58 pm

Hehe, I guess I could have looked under your name to see where you are. I spent about a week in the Blue Hill Bay area last summer. I haven't sailed past early September in Maine so I rarely see the big wind days though now that I think about it, I remember sailing up your Bay and thinking the wind was dying off, shook out my reef, shortly thereafter I was laid over and getting pummeled...

I am definitely not done experimenting with my rig but I want to explore the basics and get the boat in the water again before I go re-inventing the rig too much.

-Britton

Robert The Gray · Post by **Robert The Gray** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:24 pm

I had a stock spinnaker on my santana 22 that I cut down into a reaching sail. I did this by removing some of the belly of the sail and raising one of the tacks to make it into a clew. The spinnaker had a radial pattern at the top, and horizontal bands at the bottom joined by a central seam. I took the two middle wedges out of the radial pattern at the top and just removed the rest of the material and joined the seam at the bottom. this made the whole sail flatter. I then hacked off one of the tack patches with a bit of single layer material ramaining. I then sewed this whole tack patch at a point about 5' above where it was previously. I put my funky korean housewife sewing machine on four wheel drive and sewed the whole thing along the load lines. All the tough stuff in sail making is in layout and at the corners where the loads converge. using the previously built tack patch with its reenforcing intact was a real time saver.
This gave me a sail with less belly and a high clew. I set it on a bowsprit with a retractable tack line. I could carrry it to about 10 points above straight down wind at which point it was blanketed by the main. I could carry it up to a beam reach. and in lighter winds quite close to a close reach. I do all my sailing singlehanded and this sail was easy to set. I did at times try to set it in high winds (25knts.+) and was soundly thrashed.

I find that in my home waters most of the time the wind blows across the greatest distance of travel. what I mean is SF bay is about 50 miles north-south and about 10 miles east-west. Our prevailing summer winds are a thermal sea breeze that comes from the West. With the initial beating to the west that I must do to get from the east side of the bay out into the central bay the rest of the day is spent reaching. I try not to run straight down wind. My ideal projected suit of sails would be: main with two reefs, blade jib, reaching high clew gennie, big mast head set assym spinnaker for winds 10 knts or less, small jumper strut set assym spin for winds up to 25?, mizzen staysail, and mizzzen. For ghosting on a broad reach I could set the big mast head set asym spin, the blade jib, the main, the mizzen staysail, and the mizzen. I also intend to train my cats to swim in a harness so on those slick calm days I will just toss them out in front of the boat with some catnip on the end of a pole and I am sure I can get at least a knot of speed before they get to tired and cold.
I have also wondered about the twin headsail rig with no main up for those times when one must go straight down wind. I could use one of the asym spins. and the high clew genny.

r

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:43 pm

Britton

My spinnaker is 28' by 15'8" at the foot. I think the one that is 30 feet is the one for your boat. The other one is probably from another boat. My genoa is 17'7" at the foot and 28'6" at the luff. I wrote down 150 genoa but I think this is my 170. My feeling is that this sail is a little large for cruisng. It usually won't come across by itself and is very sifficult to see around. A j 24 genoa is suppposed to be about a 135 and I always wanted one of these as it seemed they would be perfect.

I also think it is nice if you can have enough room to raise the sail off the deck. being able to see under the sail is nice. If I just cruised I would probably have a 140-150 cut so I could see under it either by raising it on a lanyard Or keeping the clew high. I would definately get either a drifter or an asymetrical spinnaker. Going slow into the wind isn't too bad but going slow downwind is the pits. Flying the spinnaker is a chore. the drifter or an asymetrical is ideal.

I sailed another boat I owned from Ct to Ise au haut. I think we had the drifter up 60% of the time. Having a sail like that is the difference between having a fun 2 or 3 knot downwind sail and ghosting along at 1 knot. I fly my spinnaker when cruising now and the drill goes like this.
" Marilyn can you come up and give me a hand I need to gybe."
" Just stay on this tack its too hot I'm not coming up there."
" were headed right to shore we've got to gybe"
" We just gybed 10 minutes ago "

You get the idea. I wish I had a sail that whoever was on deck my wife or myself it could be easily handled by that person. Some day I'll get one.

Brock Richardson

this

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:39 pm

Thanks for some real numbers Brock. After the meeting with the sailmaker it is confirmed that my smaller spinnaker might fit my dinghy but definitely not the Triton. I wonder if someone from Rumery's Boat Yard is missing a sail?...

Oh, and Joe, the sailmaker explained what all the #'s on the Bacon website meant so they have become much much more useful to me now. Thanks again.

It was a good meeting with the sailmaker I think. He slapped some sense into me and backed up his ideas with good economics. I am keeping the furler. Or rather I am keeping the sails that furl and will replace the furler. It was the most cost effective option over the long term. I didn't realize that assymetricals aren't attached to the forestay and my working jib (more of a storm jib based on the sailmaker's estimate) can be converted quite cheaply (and it is hardly used) to fit the furler. My big spinnaker is old but hardly used and while a hideous light blue color it can be cut into an adequate assymetrical spinnaker pretty reasonably. Everyone tells me how nice they are to have and I look forward to trying it out. That leaves a real working jib, a third reef point on the main (only $150 or so, sounds like cheap insurance to me!) and most importantly, a Triton logo on the mainsail to complete the job.

The only flaw in the argument was that the sailmaker was basing his estimates on buying a furler for under $1000. I know me better than he knows me and I know I will spend more like $2500 on a furler. What's another thousand and some change in the big scheme of things?...

Brock wrote: I fly my spinnaker when cruising now and the drill goes like this.
" Marilyn can you come up and give me a hand I need to gybe."
" Just stay on this tack its too hot I'm not coming up there."
" were headed right to shore we've got to gybe"
" We just gybed 10 minutes ago "

Hehe, oh yeah. That is why a spinnaker had never been part of my plan.

You get the idea. I wish I had a sail that whoever was on deck my wife or myself it could be easily handled by that person. Some day I'll get one.

This means an assymetrical, right?

-Britton

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:50 pm

Oh, and Robert...

I am interested in learning how to make sails but I think I prefer to try it later when my list of projects has decreased somewhat. If I try to do everything myself I am afraid I will never get done and the boat will look like a patchwork doll.

I have also wondered about the twin headsail rig with no main up for those times when one must go straight down wind. I could use one of the asym spins. and the high clew genny.

Yes, twin headsail rigs. When I read about the olden cruising days it seems everyone had twin forestays to raise double headsails. I like the look of a boat running with two big foresails. Of course that would entail beefing up the backstay and maybe adding a running backstay. And then a fractional setup with twin forestays might look funny so I should consider a masthead rig. And then it is just getting too far from a Triton and I should just start with another boat.

In light winds, running the assymetrical and the genny might be an option and would be fun to try but it might also put considerable strain on the rigging I think. I will take a wait-and-see approach to that line of thought. I get too carried away with my ideas sometimes.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:22 pm

bcooke wrote: I am keeping the furler. Or rather I am keeping the sails that furl and will replace the furler.
-Britton

Phew. I think you will be much happier this way, but I wasn't going to knock your choice yesterday either.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:30 pm

I really only know enough to possibly stir up someone else who *does* know, but..... <debates whether to continue> <oh what the heck>

Well when I was first sailing on the 32-footer, it had twin headstays left over from the previous owner's re-rigging job. I don't know if this is always the case with twin headstays, but I suspect it might be, unless there was something really strange about ours.

At any rate, since there are two of them, they are of slightly smaller diameter than one would be (perhaps because two of the "normal" size, both tightened properly, would put too much strain on nearby fittings?). When we would hoist a sail on one of them (not sailing downwind), the stay with the sail on it would sag way off to leeward, while the one without a sail on it would stay snug. Yuck.

When we replaced the twins with a single forestay of the standard diameter, that problem was eliminated. We didn't have a drifter (but oh boy, would that have been nice!), so when we sailed downwind we used one headsail and then the main out on the other side. I'm sure a headsail out to one side, and then a drifter set flying on the other would be fabulous, but our rig worked. Still, a drifter was definitely at the top of the wish-list.

So I wonder if the sagging-to-leeward problem is common with twin headstays?

--- Rachel

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:39 am

Phew. I think you will be much happier this way, but I wasn't going to knock your choice yesterday either.

Oh, I knew your true feelings :-) I am a sensitive guy after all. Your silence speaks almost as much as your promiscuous vocality. Knock away. I am a big boy. I need and deserve the knocking!

In case someone hasn't noticed. I often use this forum as my personal think-out-loud, go-to-happy-place, kinda blog-like spot. I bet 50% of the time I start wishing I had thought a bit more before I hit the "submit" button. Posting my rigging thoughts was one of those times. I have been all over the map with this and in the end I always come back to the rig the boat came with. I really shouldn't write when it is past my bedtime and it would behoove me to not take my own threads on tangents. The links and info on sail dimensions was what I was originally looking for and I got that. Thanks again.

Now as for double headstays... again...

In order to maintain the same tension on the back stay, each forestay of a dual stay system would have to have half the tension of the single forestay I believe. That is why the dual forestays can be smaller. It also explains why the stays might tend to move more (sag) when under strain.

As usual, I come around to believing that the designers did indeed know what they were doing moreso than I and I should just leave well enough alone.

I really only know enough to possibly stir up someone else who *does* know, but..... <debates whether to continue> <oh what the heck>...

I might just have a protege!
... or a Mentor.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:46 am

FWIW, I've never heard great things about dual headstays running to the same logitudinal position, or closely behind one another. They end up so close to one another that it is very limiting to both sails. Plus, there's the interference from the leading furled sail, which I gather can be significant enough to be noticeable.

A better solution for a fractional Triton, one that we've talked about before here, would be to extend a bowsprit and add a masthead headstay and shrouds, while keeping the original fractional headstay as well. To me, this opens the most options, and in the most convenient and potentially efficient manner. You would rig a much larger light air sail on a furler on the outer stay and use it upwind in light wind, reaching and downwind in light and moderate air, and furl it completely in heavy air, when you could unroll a smaller jib on the inner stay, which would then work well with your up-to-triple reefed main.

I always wanted to do the double-head rig on my Triton, but I dropped those ideas when I bought Pixie. But I do think it would be an interesting and useful modification, and would also look appropriate on the boat. Plus, you get a cool bowsprit.

There are few truly new rigging ideas out there that haven't been tried. The reason you don't see more of one thing or another is probably because it just doesn't work that well. You do see some boats with double headstays led to the same place (for all intents and purposes), but generally very few of them, even on true ocean cruisers. A quasi cutter rig (or double-headed sloop) makes more overall sense, if any rig modification is to be made at all.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:19 am

If the masthead-to-bowsprit stay is only used to set light-air sails, it wouldn't really need to have a stay at all. The sail could be set flying with its own wire (dyneema, spectra, what have you) luff.

I'm tellin ya one of these days I'll get around to it!!!!

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:21 am

FWIW...

Tim wrote:FWIW, I've never heard great things about dual headstays running to the same logitudinal position, or closely behind one another. They end up so close to one another that it is very limiting to both sails. Plus, there's the interference from the leading furled sail, which I gather can be significant enough to be noticeable.

This is one of the reasons why the Dpyle UPS option appeals to me (I'm sure that others must be building simlar sails, but, I've not encountered them.). It is set ahead of the single forestay on the spinnaker halyard, rolled on its own luff. When you are done with it, it gets dumped into the fore hatch, furler and all. I think of this as the modern drifter--serving the same purpose, but able to point much higher.

It would be nice to be able to set it from the masthead, but that would require additional lateral support for the fractional rig and I don't think the cost and weight aloft would be worth it for cruising.

I don't think you need a sprit for such a sail. A PO moved the forestay aft about 6" to a beefy padeye (probably at the same time the twin backstays were built), so I easily have the room and ready attachment point.

My concerns are the tacking effort (furl and reset?), the expense (sail, furler and a second pair of winches), and the overall performance (no experience). I am encouraged to see the strategy being deployed increasingly on new boats, like the Morris 42 (Cruising World's Best Domestic BOTY).

Again, I'm not proselytizing--just sharing...

-- E

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:39 pm

Tim wrote:A better solution for a fractional Triton, one that we've talked about before here, would be to extend a bowsprit and add a masthead headstay and shrouds

Mike wrote:If the masthead-to-bowsprit stay is only used to set light-air sails, it wouldn't really need to have a stay at all. The sail could be set flying with its own wire (dyneema, spectra, what have you) luff.

Come on guys. Stop encouraging me... :-)

-Britton

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:38 pm

Britton
you asked if I meant an asymmetrical when I said I wanted an easily single handed light air sail. I'm not sure if I would take that sail over a drifter. A boat that races with us flys one and they seem like more trouble than a drifter. If like you I had roller furling I think Asymetrical would be the way to go. Plus they look way cool.

Your plan seems like a good one. the one thing that you don't want on a cruise is a boat full of sails. reefable genoa, storm jib, light air sail , Maybe a trysail if you're going offshore should be more than enough. You can store a storm jib, trysail and an asymetrical in a fairly small area. Thats another advantage of furling you don't have a giant genoa stored below when you're flying a different sail. Our boat is full of sails when we cruise. It's a bother.

I can't seem to warm up to a furled head sail. I kind of enjoy hanking that sail on. Plus there always seems to be something else I'd rather spend on. In reality though furled headsails are the way to go. I just need to spend a week on a boat with a nice furling system. I'm sure then I would be saving up for one for my boat.

Brock

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:17 am

Yes, sail storage is definitely an issue with me. Tritons are blessed in many ways but storage just isn't one of them. You pay a lot for dangerously good looks I guess :-)

Now sails beyond genny's, jibs, and mainsails are a bit of a mystery to me. I don't have a very clear picture of the difference between an assymetrical and a drifter. If I remember right, an assymetrical is more genoa-like and can take a boat more upwind than a drifter will?

You mentioned a trysail. For some serious passagemaking (unlikely in my case) it might be a good choice but I am thinking a third reef in the mainsail will suffice and that is one less sail that I will hardly use to pack around. A third reef on a Triton is a pretty small sail. Maybe a triple reefed mainsail isn't really up to the strains of a truly strong blow but if it gets me through a single true storm then I will gladly replace the main when I get home. I could easily carry a trysail for ten years and never use it and I expect to replace the main every ten years or so anyway. Just my thoughts of the moment.

My last boat had hank on sails and I really didn't mind them at all. I liked the ability to match the sail with the day's wind conditions and just generally take more of an interest and making a decision and seeing how well I did. I also like the brutal simplicity of hank on. It is a pretty reliable system.

This Triton comes with an ancient furler. It took about ten seconds to realize how nice they can be. Zip, it is out. Zip it is in. With the furler I will let the sail out with the first signs of wind. If I am wrong it is easy enough to furl it back in. With the hank on I waited longer just to make sure the wind was going to stay with me. It got annoying to raise the foresail and two minutes later have to lower and secure it again. The reliability of my current system is questionable but the ability is pretty good.

My understanding is that furlers have become pretty reliable since mine was made and it seems lots of people who used to poo-poo furlers as being too unreliable are now using them. I still worry about ripping the foresail and being stuck with the remnants in the ... luff slot?... whatever it is called but I guess if I don't get stupid and lazy and leave a sail up longer than I should this shouldn't be a problem. I can rig up a temporary foresail between the spinnaker halyard and the mooring cleat if I get really desperate but I think I am worrying about a pretty remote possibility here. Just take the thing down or furl it up when the wind blows too hard and I should never have a problem. If I really wanted to avoid problems at sea I should probably just take up golf more seriously anyway.

Now, I have discussed bowsprits elsewhere so I won't say any more (okay much more). I have a drawing I made of a Triton sailplan with an additional stay on a bowsprit. It looks VERY nice. A sail rigged "loose" between the bowsprit and masthead fitting sounds very promising too. I will leave that for later, when I am bored and have nothing to work on. One thought on masthead rigged sails though. I always start getting excited thinking about masthead rigged sails but then I try to factor in the jumper struts and things get complicated. Those things just keep getting in the way but I don't want to lose them because they are an integral part of an East Coast Triton and are an immediate identifying factor from miles away. They are part of the Triton "cool" factor.

The Doyle UPS is interesting too. When I reconsider my sailplan in a couple of years I am going to take a closer look at it. Right now, as is usual, my planning is years ahead of my implementation phase.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:25 am

bcooke wrote: A sail rigged "loose" between the bowsprit and masthead fitting sounds very promising too. I will leave that for later, when I am bored and have nothing to work on. One thought on masthead rigged sails though. I always start getting excited thinking about masthead rigged sails but then I try to factor in the jumper struts and things get complicated. Those things just keep getting in the way but I don't want to lose them because they are an integral part of an East Coast Triton and are an immediate identifying factor from miles away. They are part of the Triton "cool" factor.
-Britton

The jumper struts were one of the reasons I didn't ever seriously pursue the rig modification. Like you, I wanted to have my cake and eat it too: have the masthead-rigged headsail, but keep the jumpers, which I have always liked. While it might work with care, the reality is that using a sail from the masthead with the jumpers in place is something that wouldn't be very practical. Those silly things take up a lot of room, and you'd always be snagging the sail on them. No thanks. I opted to keep the rig as is, but, as I mentioned earlier, partly because I bought another boat that became the boat I planned to do more distance cruising on. If Glissando were to be that boat, I'd still seriously consider some rig modifications, as the fractional rig is underpowered downwind and in light airs.

Most bowsprits of the length required to allow for a parallel masthead headstay on a fractionally-rigged Triton (something like 3' beyond the stem on a Triton, as I recall) rely upon the tensile forces generated between a permanent headstay and a bobstay for support. Not having a stay on the end of the sprit means that the sprit would need to be stiffer so it wouldn't flop around on its own. Not impossible, but something to think about. This also factors in to the potential for side-to-side movement when the sail is deployed: having the opposing stays helps stiffen the whole thing and prevent it from falling off to leeward because of the pull of the sail at the end. Note that the retractable, unsupported sprits used for asyms on boats like the J-boats are made of stiff and strong carbon fiber and are highly engineered to reduce this very sort of movement under load.

For me, the use of additional sails comes down to convenience, and this further translates into the storage of said sail when not in use, and the ease with which it can be deployed. Speaking only for myself, I know that for me to use any light air or downwind sail on a remotely regular basis, it needs to be essentially ready to go at a moment's notice. This is why I always found the bowsprit/permanent roller-furled light air headsail to be so attractive, to me. I'm not saying it's the right answer for everyone. But if I had to duck below into a storage locker and pull up the sail, 9 times out of 10 it wouldn't happen, plain and simple, except on the longest runs. Besides, it's tough coming up with the storage for these extra sails on a Triton, unless you use the v-berth. For some people, that works very well, but not for us.

I always wanted something that I could easily deploy for 5 minutes, if I wanted, or 25 minutes, or 6 hours, or what have you. So a multi-purpose, large, relatively lightweight sail like a Code 0 fits the bill best in my mind--something that lived on its own furler, always up there ready to go when I wanted it, and something that was just as easily stowed when I was done with it. For me, even needing to hoist a furled sail, and then to unroll it, is often not worth the effort. Call it lazy if you want, but it's more that I go sailing purely to relax, not to work. After 20 years of serious racing, I guess I got sick of working so hard to go sailing. So now I seek a more convenient means of gaining sail area in the right conditions, and also of reducing it when the time is right.

Some clarification of the sail types:

An assymetrical spinnaker (asym) is actually a spinnaker, though it's flown from a fixed tack position at deck level, and needs to be reversed upon gybing. Asyms are built of lightweight nylon, like a spinnaker, and are usable in light winds up to maybe 60? apparent. Asums are more convenient than traditional spinnakers because you don't use an ungainly pole. They can be tacked on the stem, or, as with the racing classes, on a retractable sprit for the most efficient use.

A drifter is more like a large, lightweight genoa, usually with a deeper cut that allows it to catch lighter breezes. In the lightest winds, one can just about beat with a drifter, but they're ideal for reaching.

Being essentially a lightweight genoa, the drifter is easier to handle than any spinnaker, but also somewhat less efficient in the conditions where a spinnaker (including an asym) excels. I think that drifters, or the similar Code 0, make sense for cruisers who are not inclined to mess with any spinnakers (like me, for instance). The Code 0 and drifter-type sails can also be used more as upwind sails, at least in lighter winds, whereas the asyms are not much good for this. This seems to make a lot of sense for a cruiser, where one is trying to make one sail work well at more than one specific task, and more than one point of sail.

A true spinnaker or asym will outperform the other choices in the ideal conditions, but what good is that if the sail is in its bag somewhere in the cabin? A larger, but perhaps not the ultimate, sail ready to go at a moment's notice outperforms anything else, in my opinion.

Here's a good diagram showing the relative sizes and shapes of a regular genoa, Code 0, and asymmetrical spinnaker.

Blue=Full asymmetrical
Red=Code 0
White=Genoa

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:11 am

Tim wrote:While it might work with care, the reality is that using a sail from the masthead with the jumpers in place is something that wouldn't be very practical. Those silly things take up a lot of room, and you'd always be snagging the sail on them. No thanks.

Especially consider that you will be likely flying only light air sails from the mast head: these sorts of sails don't take well to snagging. On my passage up from the Virgins, we snagged the spinnaker on the spreader. This made a tiny tear which within 5 minutes had turned into a shredded sail.

I wouldn't consider trying to fly a masthead sail with the spreaders. Unless I could afford to have a new sail for each time I tried to fly it!

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:54 pm

dasein668 wrote:
Tim wrote:While it might work with care, the reality is that using a sail from the masthead with the jumpers in place is something that wouldn't be very practical. Those silly things take up a lot of room, and you'd always be snagging the sail on them. No thanks.
Especially consider that you will be likely flying only light air sails from the mast head: these sorts of sails don't take well to snagging. On my passage up from the Virgins, we snagged the spinnaker on the spreader. This made a tiny tear which within 5 minutes had turned into a shredded sail.

I wouldn't consider trying to fly a masthead sail with the spreaders. Unless I could afford to have a new sail for each time I tried to fly it!

I think some of the Chesapeake crowd fly oversized spinnakers from the mast head and get away with it. Probably be ok down wind, but the lack of lateral support for the mast head (that provided by the jumpers is pretty limited) would make reaching a pretty risky proposition, IMHO...

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:30 pm

Britton, have you considered a removable inner forestay with hank-on staysail and storm jib options? Then you could put a nice big genoa on that new furler. I'm surprised that hasn't appeared in this discussion. Maybe I missed it.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:53 pm

Thanks for the clarification Tim. (pictures are much easier for me to understand) Now I want an assym. and a drifter. If I had to choose one though I too would lean towards the drifter because it sounds more versatile. On the other hand running with an assym. would be great too...

Tim wrote: Speaking only for myself, I know that for me to use any light air or downwind sail on a remotely regular basis, it needs to be essentially ready to go at a moment's notice.

This brings up the point that seems to stay in the background of this conversation. Everyone here has different needs and wants when it comes to their sailplan. All these ideas are good but they come from a complicated mix of sailing styles, current needs, possible future needs, etc. There isn't going to be an 'ideal' rig that we are going to agree on, just a bunch of good ideas that work under a given set of circumstances.

In my case, I am usually pretty flexible as to my sailing destination and will drift around for a few hours if the winds don't cooperate. Oftentimes I change destinations if it looks like I am not going to make it in a reasonable time under sail. Sometimes I motor but not that often. In these cases when I am just drifting with not enough wind to fill my heavy genoa, I would gladly spend the time and effort setting an assym or drifter. If I wasn't doing that then I would be sitting in the cockpit reading or baking cookies down below anyway. Just a different style requiring a different sail inventory.

As for a removeable inner forestay... I think someone has been studying Atom's sailplan! It is a good idea and something to consider but in my case I am going to wait until revision #2. I want to spend more time experimenting with a stock Triton rig before I go messing about with my own creations. Setting the inner forestay would add more tension in the forward direction to the mast which would have to be countered with a running backstay or something. Do-able but I don't want to go that far just yet. For real long term, long passage, cruising, I think James Baldwin has probably as good a rig/sail setup as can be had on a Triton. After two circumnavigations I guess he should.

-Britton

The Good Goose · Post by **The Good Goose** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:11 pm

Britton
The disadvantage of a Drifter for a boat with a furled headsail is that the ones I have seen are attached to the head stay. Mine had four hanks for a 30 foot luff. Maybe thay can build one with a built in stay so you could just attach it to the deck fitting and the spinnaker halyard.

Drifters seem to have fallen out of favor lately. Everyone seems to want the asymmetricals. I'd ask your sailmaker about the advantages and disadvantages of each. If he can turn your old spinnaker into an asymmetrical cheaply why not try it out. I've never used one but the people I know who have, really like them. The drifter just seems a little more foolproof then the asymetrical. Although it was pretty easy to get that big belly on the drifter wrapped around the forestay if you screwed up.

Mostly I think it's fun just having a light air option no matter what it is. ghosting along at 1.5 or 2 knots is pretty enjoyable with a light sail. If you're not in a hurry it beats listening to the engine. down wind sailing is to me the most trying. even going five knots can seem like you're crawling. A light air sail adds a little spice to the mix.

I wasn't suggesting you should get a trysail. I think you would only need one if you were considering some serious passage making. I've been out in over 30 with a double reefed main and a small jib and felt like the boat was not over sailed. With the triple reef and a storm jib you shoud be ready for anything you'd encounter on a coastal cruise if you listen to the forcasts.

Go slow with your sail choices. They are expensive and you need to know what you like. there is no point in owning sails you never use. Best to make 1 sail do as much as possible ie a roller furling jib replacing 2 jibs and a triple reefed main elimninating the try sail. If you don't race it makes it easier as racing sail choices often are at odds with cruising sail choices. Racers do crazy things to make very slow boats go a tiny bit faster.

remember a two week cruise with ratty old sails is alot more fun than no cruise with brand new sails while you work to pay for them.

Brock

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:49 pm

The sailmaker thought he could chop down my old but good spinnaker quite easily (and cheaply) to an assymetric so I am going that route for now.

remember a two week cruise with ratty old sails is alot more fun than no cruise with brand new sails while you work to pay for them.

That is the best advice of all. Thanks.

-Britton