Fair Market Pricing

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Skipper599
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Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

... This post should probably fall under a heading like "Rant & Rave"

... During the installation of a Jabsco toilet, I discovered I was in need of four (4) Stainless Steel Tee Nuts to anchor the mounting bolts.
... Off I went to the local marine store where I quickly found these items which I promptly bagged, labelled with SKU number and headed for the check-out ... all the while thinking maybe a $5 bill would cover the purchase. Imagine my surprise when the cashier quite soberly said "That'll be $13.35" ... Totally shocked I asked ... You want how much??? ... "$13.35" she repeated. ... That cannot be I protested. That's almost $3 each! "That's the price" she insisted. Thinking I had not kept up with current day prices, I reluctantly paid up and went home with my expensive purchase.

... The high price I had just shelled out really bugged me. I was sure these little buggers should not be so expensive and so, I decided to check another supplier. sure enough, they had the same product, in fact they are a wholesale/retail business, supplying other businesses. So, How much do you Retail these Tee nuts for I asked ... 65cents I was told ... and that's your retail price? I asked again, "Yes sir, that's the retail price" I was assured.

... I phoned the local marine store and spoke to the fellow who had directed me to the Tee Nut bin, telling him I was questioning the price I paid ... he asked the SKU number and came back a few minutes later telling me the price I paid was correct. I told him of my enquiry at the other business and the price they quoted me and asked where the owner could be contacted. "He's on vacation for a few weeks in Asia" I was told.

... Rest assured I shall make my unhappiness known to him upon his return. It has also caused me to check up on all my previous purchases over the past year. I can't really go back further because, how does one check up on "old" pricing? It's not that I buy an awful lot of items, but I have shopped that store for over 25 years. Probably been overcharged previously but, I accept it is due to convenience of location. The next store is a 45 minute drive away. ...

... Whatever happened to Fair Market Pricing??? or is this simply total greed of a youger generation?
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Quetzalsailor »

That's got to be an extreme example!

I try hard to shop around, if I have time. Stainless screws in Bryn Mawr Hardware were almost twice as expensive than at West Marine, talk about a turnabout! (Bryn Mawr is one of the towns on Philly's 'Main Line' and is the lair of many a fat cat.)

Buying from places like McMaster-Carr, or Defender Marine only takes an extra day or so.

I did the same job on Q by epoxying a slab of 1/2" McMaster-Carr fiberglass to the underside of the head floor. Drilled and tapped for the John's bolts. The head floor was a little light and drilled for several previous Johns.
Skipper599
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Quetzalsailor wrote:Buying from places like McMaster-Carr, or Defender Marine only takes an extra day or so.
Trouble is Quetzelsailor, when we want it NOW! and are simply not prepared to wait a day or two ... so i guess I should quit my griping. Another part of the problem is, the wholesale/retail store is located in the big city of Vancouver. It takes time to go there and return ... time that in my books would be better spent on more productive things than driving into town.
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by earlylight »

Tuesday I stopped by my local West Marine Store (read Evil Empire) to pick up 4 small brass screw eyes. When I got to the cash register I was amazed when the clerk said "that will be $8.44 sir." I told the clerk "That can't be right" to which he replied "They are $1.99 each which comes to $7.96 plus $0.44 tax" I told the clerk "I thought Jesse James was dead." I refused to complete the purchase and went up the street to ACE hardware where I purchased four identical "solid brass" screw eyes for a grand total of $0.64 including tax. West Marine will NEVER get another bit of my business.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Sailmachine »

I have been searching for a new mast. This guy has one on eBay that MIGHT work for may boat, but he wants $5000 for it. I sent him a message and asked how he thought his 40 year old mast was worth $5000 when I had Z spar quote me a brand new mast, complete, built just for me, for $5800, and even $2800 for a scratch n dent mast. Then consider that I can get a brand new mast extrusion for under $1800, which is all I really need. He replied and said he was asking $6000 but dropped the price to $5000 and that it had special fittings that a 'real' sailor would appreciate. I told him to enjoy his mast with special fittings as he would have it for a very long time.

Pete
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Case »

Anything that says "marine" gives people the license to overcharge. It's disgusting, I have to admit.

That said, I hate to say this... Items related to boats tend not to be manufactured in large enough numbers to keep prices low. This happens because the boating market is not that big enough for high volumes/low prices. Prices are high because you can't make a living selling only a handful of something in a year. I don't know how to explain this better, though.

$1.99 for brass screws are crazy. If I ran that shop, I would just tell people go over to the local hardware store. Less business for me, sure but its best to stick to stuff that I can move in volume or very specific items at a high price (no volume hence high prices). I run a business, after all...

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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

I'm sure we all agree, special parts will always command higher pricing. That's a "given". ... It's the small common items such as the Tee-nuts and Screw-eyes with the exhorbitant mark-ups that pzzzz us off. ... particularly when these very same items can be found at considerably lower prices elsewhere. It tends to make one believe the merchant looks upon you as an idiot, prime for milking. ... Back to my thoughts on "Fair Market Values" and how should they best be determined? ... Must we research prices on every item we wish to purchase regardless of size etc.? ... Whatever happened to TRUST? ... or, should we just accept as common practice that we will be ripped off in today's market place?
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Sailmachine wrote:I have been searching for a new mast. This guy has one on eBay that MIGHT work for may boat, but he wants $5000 for it. I sent him a message and asked how he thought his 40 year old mast was worth $5000 when I had Z spar quote me a brand new mast, complete, built just for me, for $5800, and even $2800 for a scratch n dent mast. Then consider that I can get a brand new mast extrusion for under $1800, which is all I really need. He replied and said he was asking $6000 but dropped the price to $5000 and that it had special fittings that a 'real' sailor would appreciate. I told him to enjoy his mast with special fittings as he would have it for a very long time.

Pete

... Pete,
I was interested in your comments re: mast. ... Where can you get an extrusion for "under $1800?" ... I'm looking for a new Boom of a given dimension to accept the existing end-fittings.
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Case »

Skipper599 -

One company I know of is Dwyer Aluminum Mast Company. They sell extrusions only along with complete masts or booms.

There are others but Dwyer is the one I know about. I've bought fittings from them before and I was happy about the purchase.

One cautionary note: Shipping can be a killer for ultra long things (over 6 feet in general)... So don't get excited at the reasonable prices until you find out about the shipping prices.

- Case
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Thanks for this Case, I'll look up Dwyer and see what they can do for me.

General question: What kind of transportation regulations might I need to know of were I to travel to the US to purchase a mast?
What I have in mind is a clamping device with swivel capabilities on the car roof, with the tail end of the spar on its own two wheeled dolly. Lights of course, but no need for brakes etc.
Would a "transport dolly" be considered a trailer in the US requiring a licence? What authority should I pose this question to?
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Case »

Usually, a specialized trailer is used. This type of trailer can get longer or shorter as needed. Its probably more cost effective to have masts (or long booms) delivered.

Take a look at Tim's Triton Daysailer project. Somewhere late in the process, the mast was delivered. There are pictures of the trailer there. I'm too lazy to look it up and its been years since I visited the Daysailer website.

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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Tim »

Case wrote:Take a look at Tim's Triton Daysailer project. Somewhere late in the process, the mast was delivered. There are pictures of the trailer there. I'm too lazy to look it up and its been years since I visited the Daysailer website.
Not that anyone's about to run out and build a trailer like this for one spar, since it was referenced here it is. This trailer belonged to Metalmast Marine.

(Note: this trailer was designed to carry spars up to 70' in length and could be extended and retracted to suit.)

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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Rachel »

Skipper599 wrote:I'm looking for a new Boom of a given dimension to accept the existing end-fittings.
Edited to add: I see in a later post you mentioned "mast," so I'm not sure if you are looking for a boom, a mast, or both. My comments might not apply to a mast for a 24-footer.

Bob,

How long will the boom be? I transported my Montgomery 17's mast a longish distance on my smallish car (Toyota Tercel wagon) and I believe it was a road legal setup (although I did not check regulations for front overhang; that said, people put bike racks there....). I'm guessing your boom would be 15' or so? So you probably would not end up with an extrusion longer than your vehicle, or at least not by much.

First of all, I had a good, stout set of roof racks on the car (Yakima gutter racks with oak cross bars; just what I already happened to have). I put the mast up on the racks and positioned it so that I had about 5' projecting aft of the rear bumper and a couple of feet forward of the front bumper.

Next, I made a wooden support cradle that sat on the (flat) front bumper and supported the forward part of the mast. This was made from dimensional lumber and clamps (probably would use real fasteners if going more than a couple hundred miles), and then tied to the mast and to the front of the car.

For the aft end I had a red flag/small red light (although I made the trip in daylight), since it projected more than the minimum. I also added a line from the aft end to the car.

This all rode in a very stable fashion, and I only had one problem which is that I (stupidly!) put one of the boards of the forward cradle right in front of the exact section of grille that really needed cooling air, so I had to stop and shimmy the whole works over. Then I had to make sure not to dawdle as that put the cradle base partially in front of one headlight (natch!). Of course I could have avoided both of those problems if I had thought of the radiator in advance.

Rachel

PS: Checking, the "P" dimension for the M-17 is 19', so I would guess the mast was about 21' long or so. It was a pretty stout extrusion, so I'm thinking your boom should be similar or maybe a bit shorter/lighter?
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Hey, sorry for the confusion Rachel. Actually, some may recall I have a mast and boom I previously told, was removed from a parted-out Albin Vega 27. ... This particular mast measures 29' 8" . The boom is 11' 6" ... However, the original plan for my particular boat calls for a 33' stick and 13' boom ... the Vega rig is by Selden, the spars being in pretty good condition. But ... if I could buy new for a couple of thousand $ as hinted by "Pete", I would definitely reconsider my options.

I can get by with this shorter mast because, the modified (Sloop) plans for my FG version have a long, high coach-house showing a 33' stick stepped on top of said cabin. The original (T.Gilmer's BlueMoon) plan having a simple Companionway Dog-house, called for the same 33' stick to be stepped on deck. There would be a slight discrepancy but, I've also changed from Sloop, back to (original) Cutter rig so no loss in sail area.

The only reason I would go for a new spar is, because the Selden spar has had items added over the years, leaving holes where they are no longer required. I can of course, have them welded up, but that's a bit of a pain and need for costly refinish.

Hope this explains my thinking somewhat more clearly ??? ... Far too many thoughts milling arouind in my head I'm afraid.
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s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
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There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Quetzalsailor »

I guess this is what Subject creep is!

26' of Flying Dutchman mast on a Volvo wagon is plenty, given Philadelphia drivers' patience. A 30' section of B-40 mast was even more plenty!

Rachel noted beefing up roofracks and cartop carriers. Roof racks are tougher; my old 1975 Volvo wagon had cast zinc brackets and light stainless tubing cross- and longitudinal members. I'd tie oak cross members adjacent to the brackets. Car top carriers are easier, particularly if they clip onto something good, like the edge structure and/or gutter of the roof. The carrier mounts for my old 59 Studebaker had to be bent to fit the round roof. The carriers for my old 71 VW were too long; I cut them and removed some from the middle, then bolted an oak beam into the channel. My 96 Volvo 850 wagon's bear onto the roof edge and latch into reinforced pinholes in the door heads: very neat and the brackets won't slide. Most carriers have some sort of end bracket affixed to a straight piece of stuff crossing the car. I've always assumed (and demonstrated to myself...) that the end brackets will carry more than the rail can. It's easy to arrange a tied- or bolted-on wood crossmember that's strong enough and long enough to be useful for plywood or whatnot. I'll fret more about our 2006 Volvo V-70 whose factory carriers clip into a recess in the black stripe that's in from the roof edge (those stripes are pretty ubiquitous on cars these days; they are the place that the manufacturers have welded side and roof stampings together and as such, might be a little stronger than elsewhere.)

Some degree of common sense has to be exercised when loading up a car roof. The owner's manual will always state a load limit, usually ridiculously and uselessly low. The old Volvo ads (six or seven sedans stacked up), and experience in shopping in car junk yards demonstrate that a normal car structure is pretty darned good! Once you've reinforced your racks so that the cross members won't deflect, you no longer have an easy way to see how much of the capacity is left. Pay attention to how readily the car can be rolled side to side. If the load is long, you may find the car won't track as well or return to straight as well. Pay attention to how well the load is tied down. Side to side and down is easier to do than fore and aft, and rotation. Gravity is pretty good for side to side and down, but braking (for bozos or stoplights) can play merry hell. Tie fore and aft and down to the anchor loops that most cars have these days for their shipping. It does not take much misalignment to cause a long load to rotate, place them over the anchor loops for tieing. Light and high windage loads can be calmed down with additional dunnage. I've occasionally bought a sheet of CDX, or some 2x4's just to keep foam insulation, thinner valuable sheets of plywood, or even drywall, from lifting.

I've carried all sorts of stuff on the roof over the years, canoes, dinghies, endless quantities of lumber, plywood, drywall, a harpsichord, a radial arm saw, washing machine, jack stands, 12' Christmas trees, furniture. I've lost only one load, but it was a doozy; I tied a short stack of pressure treated 12' - 2" x 12" - routine - but I failed to notice how slippery the sopping wet wood was. Not even a block from the lumber yard, and not from more than about 20 mph, I had to stop for a stoplight. The lumber came shooting off the roof, did not even touch the hood as it left, and went skittering this way and that through the intersection, oncoming cars steering every which way to miss 'em. No accidents, no injuries and no ticket. It's never really routine.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Note how neatly Tim's spar trailer is arranged so that the spar can extend over the towing vehicle's roof.

I do the same thing when towing a 20' Flying Dutchman; the 26' mast extends from a bracket mounted on the transom's rudder gudgeons up to an extension bolted to the trailer's bow bracket.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Thanks for the trailer pic Tim. That is certainly similar to what I had in mind, although in my case I intended the new mast to be attached directly to the "dolly" effectively replacing the main box beam of the trailer. Think modified small boat trailer axle only (towing box beam removed), having a pair of risers to raise the mast about 3' above ground and keep the axle square to the Spar ... similar to, but not identical to the one in your pic. which has been truly been constructed as a trailer.

I persist in referring to the unit I have in mind as a "Dolly" because, the front end of the mast would be attached atop the prime mover (with a swivel base) and should be classified as "the load". ... With the use of a Dolly supporting the additional length, I'm asking: Is this simply an "extended load", or does it now become a trailer? ... If the latter, I guess it would require a licence.

If that becomes a problem, how about support structures mounted on F & R bumpers of a PU truck, and carry all 33' as a primary load with front and rear overhang?
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But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by mitiempo »

Bob, Dwyer is not very close. It is in Connecticut.

But back to retail pricing.
In Victoria I would never buy from West Marine. I deal with Trotac Marine almost exclusively for "specifically Marine" equipment. A cluttered store with great stock and answers from experienced people. I have known the owners for over 20 years and a few staff have been there more than 10 years. Victoria's best marine store but certainly not the most obvious one.

But if I need something not specifically marine I shop elsewhere. For marine tinned wire I buy at ECS (Electric Cable Supply), a nationwide supplier to the electrical industry. Nothing more than a warehouse with an office and they sell at 30 to 50% less than my best price at Trotac. And they sell to anyone as long as the cash sale is over $50.

For brass pipe fittings, hoses of all kinds (fuel, propane, etc) as well as Racor filters I shop at Coast Industrial. 17' propane hose made while you wait (less than 5 minutes) is almost half the price of the pre-made 20' hose at Trotac.

I buy Formica laminate from a distributor and not Home Depot or similar stores.

Screws and bolts I buy at Trotac or Acklands in 100 quantities. When you buy 12 or so at some stores' high prices it is almost as much as the 100 lot. If it is a common size you will probably use the rest eventually.

Wherever possible deal with industrial suppliers, not shiny retail stores. Build a relationship with the best stores of their type but don't be blind to other choices. Every large area like Victoria, Vancouver (I did the same there when I lived there pre 1987) has many choices but you have to ferret them out. They are not the obvious ones usually. I don't think any of my regular stores advertise much, or at all in some cases.

ps I also needed 4 stainless T nuts a few months ago. It was all I needed that day. The employee at Trotac let me have them free as I am a good customer and I think they were only .25 each anyway.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Thanks Mitiempo for those shopping tips. ... I purchased the expensive Tee nuts from Steveston Hardware & Marine in Langlay close to my home. The cheaper ones are in Vancouver at Pacific Fasteners. Obviously it would not be economical to drive that far to save a buck, particularly when one is only buying a small quantity. As well, I never drive into Vancouver ... haven't been there for many years.

Re: Dwyer ... no sense in driving to CT either. But surely there must be a good deal on spars somewhere closer? ... Anyone???
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s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
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There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Rachel »

I don't know about "good deal," and it's not right next door, but Ballenger Spars is in the Monterey Bay area of California, so at least it is on your side of The Rockies. Certainly a lot closer than Dwyer.

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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Skipper599 »

Thanks for that Rachel, I'll see what they can do for me ...
I am: Bob of Wight.

s/v 'Ros Na Cosquin'
a 'Passage - 24'

There are good ships, there are wood ships, and these ships sail the sea

But the best ship, is friendship and may this always be! ... ... ... A prayer from Ireland.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by Richincident »

Just a quick thought on some of the fair market prices. The big chain stores, which have those great prices, all make their money by rapid inventory turns and computerized buying to keep those turns going. I can sell a screw and make a penny on it IF I can sell that kind of screw a hundred times a day and keep refilling the bin.

If I have to hold onto the screw the money is all static and tied up to that ONE stinking screw. In my case I had the stunning discovery that some lovely brass screws that fit my impeller are over $6 a piece. They are tiny little guys. I can get "something like it" for five for a buck at a big hardware chain. But it won't fit exactly, and it also does not have the perfect head configuration.

I bought those for backups and got a LOT more careful about letting my valuable brass screws from swimming in the bilge. I have screening under me now when I work on the *(&% impeller.

I don't really blame the marine stores for pricing their "screws that turn over once a year" at a high price. They are renting space and holding dollars throughout. The inventory turns are nil for most of these. One or two screws a year is all anyone is going to buy. It is frustrating, but it how they have kept those prices down, and our low volume, specialty, slow turning items are NOT going to be priced similarly to the fast movers.
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Re: Fair Market Pricing

Post by mitiempo »

Depends where you go. As I posted earlier, Trotac in Victoria has good prices on everything marine including screws and more obscure slow moving items. Fisherman's supply in Seattle has good prices as well. There is a store in San Diego I forgot the name of. There are many others across the US and some in Canada. Defender and Jamestown Distributors are probably in this category. These stores are the marine equivalent of the old hardware stores that are now almost all gone, replaced by Home Depot et all.
They don't have to have a lot of turns on every item, but do on many items they stock. Average turns count and the slower moving items are there because their customers ask for and expect them. These stores can probably be found in many of the large population centers with a good boating community.
As I posted though, not every store has everything and for some items other stores are a better choice.

West Marine is shinier, but can't compete. Sure they will match prices but in any West Marine I have been in don't ask a technical question - you won't like the answer. And their in stock mix is based on turns individually for the most part, not average turns. They cater to the average boater, not one who does real work on their boats like the posters on this forum.
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