Atomic 4 versus small outboard

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Atomic 4 versus small outboard

Post by Command_1 »

Atomic 4 versus small outboard

Looking for opinions on fixing an aging Atomic 4 (1961) versus a small outboard.
Can’t afford a new diesel
Is it worth babying a temperamental A4 that smokes in the cabin and starts and runs whenever it wants?
I have spent the last two weeks replacing oil, spark plug wires, plugs, working the rotor and points, taken apart carburetor soaked, cleaned it, cleaned and replaced impellor for the raw water, inline fuel filter, drained the fuel water separator. Still can’t figure out why reverse does not work. Wrapped the exhaust manifold and pipe to cut down on smoke in the cabin, no joy. About 50 hours of work $200 and still no confidence at all getting out of an extremely tight marina.
Hard to start, runs sweet when it wants to
Also considering oars like Robert in Whisper, but he still has a diesel.
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Post by bcooke »

Outboard versus inboard always starts a heated debate so ask at your own peril. Plenty of old threads here to peruse if you want some opinions.

A4's run well if they are maintained. Yours obviously doens't fit that category. It is going to take cash to get it there. It is also going to take cash to get an outboard. Choose your poison.
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Post by bcooke »

Wrapped the exhaust manifold and pipe to cut down on smoke in the cabin,
Yeah, I guess you know now that that doesn't really work. If the exhaust is leaking then you need a new exhaust. The wrapping, primarily, is really only useful in insulating the pipe from its surroundings so you don't light anything on fire. A secondary function is to keep the pipe hot so the exhaust gasses stay hot and flow faster. Not really critical in a low tech A4.
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Post by Chris Campbell »

How about a second hand diesel, costing in the same vicinity as a new outboard? Or a rebuilt Atomic 4, costing a similar amount also?
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Post by cmartin »

Break your problems down, dont just throw parts at it. For example, the exhaust issue has nothing to do with reverse. If it were me I would do a compression test and see what kind of shape the engine is. If it's not completely rusty I would keep it.

Get new pipe for the exhaust, too much potential danger to not fix.
David

Post by David »

Welcome to old boat ownership. The A4 is an extremely simple engine but you will probably have to invest some money in it just as with most of the systems on your boat. Give it fuel, air, ignition and compression and it will run, right? The reverse issue is probably linkage based, don't you think?

It the engine has compression and runs you are better off chasing its problems than either repowering with a different engine or and outboard.
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

Been there and started with an A4 that was extremely unreliable and finished with one that was above reproach for about the last 6 of 10 years, until the very day I sold the boat.

As was said before, separate the problems. But the first is to see whether you have an engine or a mooring. Find a buddy who actually knows how to do a compression test well enough to distinguish between bad rings or bad valves (involves artfully dropping oil into the cylinder being tested and understanding what the changed reading means). My understanding, and experience, is that the valves are much more often the problem.

The carb rebuild: my main casting halves were deformed from overtightening. So it leaked. I ground the surfaces flat with sandpaper taped to glass and I made my own thicker gasket using the kit gasket as a sample.

The ignition: go with the Indigo electronic ignition.

The exhaust leak: find it and fix it; it's mostly pipe and simple gaskets. Doesn't take much of a hole to fill the boat with smoke.

However, the worst smoke I experienced in the boat was from the head gasket. There are supposed to be two gaskets and the torquing is important since the head is little more than a plank of cast iron. You are supposed to retorque at some interval (read the manual).

No reverse: this is a really simple transmission. Read the instructions; there's a clamp and a lump of metal to turn. Clutch plates for forward and a cone clutch for reverse. Top off, loosen the clamp, turn the lump (the correct direction, thus the instructions) until the thing goes 'plop' into forward, tighten the clamp. Reverse will, I think, be right. Recall that the shifter has to be held in reverse; there's no overcenter.
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Post by Tim »

There's a methodical approach required for troubleshooting and repairing old things like engines.

It's best to identify the symptom, then consider possible solutions beginning with the simplest and working your way from there as required. Often, the simplest solution turns out to be the one, but always follow this process of elimination for each problem, one problem at a time. New parts are nice and all, but if they're not addressing the actual problems, one at a time, you're not really helping the overall situation much.

Reverse: if you have the original, stock Triton big bronze shift handle in the cockpit sole,I assume you are aware that reverse is pushing the handle forward, and also that it doesn't lock into reverse gear; you must hold it.

Getting your old, neglected engine back into reliable condition is not going to be free, nor without its frustrations or significant time spent (which is why you must be methodical in your approach).

Your cabin is smoky because your exhaust system has failed somewhere. Find and replace the offending parts, as this is not an acceptable condition and there's not a quick patch fix for it.

I won't touch the outboard debate except to say that I wouldn't buy an inboard-powered boat without being prepared to deal with the inboard.
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Post by Figment »

Tim wrote:
Your cabin is smoky because your exhaust system has failed somewhere. Find and replace the offending parts, as this is not an acceptable condition and there's not a quick patch fix for it.
Or because the spiral-wound tubing that connects the crankcase vent to the spark arrestor isn't quite managing all of the blow-by smoke created by old worn piston rings.

I can't remember if Moyer has the better PCV system or if it's Indigo, but that was $60 well spent on my A4.
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Post by triton318 »

I don't reply to posts often (on any forum), because I rarely feel 1) qualified to repond or 2) passionate enough about the topic. Here's a rare occasion where #2 applies (and maybe a bit of #1 as well).

When I bought my Triton nine years ago, it had the original A4. The boat was on the hard, so I wasn't able to see if the engine ran. The previous owner didn't know the last time it ran, and it looked to be in really bad shape. After reading about several Triton owners who had converted to outboards, I made my decision. I've never once regretted it.

I pulled the A4 and put a 30 gallon water tank where it used to sit. Then I hung a Nissan 9.8 with an alternator on an adustable bracket on the stern. I paid 850.00 for the motor.

1. In nine years, the engine always started on the first or second pull and never quit on me.
2. The yearly cost for regular maintenance was minimal: new plugs, new lower end oil, and new fuel filter.
3. The motor pushed the boat at hull speed with no problem at all.
4. Backing out of the slip has always been easy, because you can pivot the motor.
5. In terms of fuel consumption, it has been extremely economical. It's also easy to refuel--just take the portable tank (two six gallon tanks will fit in the lazerette) to the gas station.

I can think of only one drawback, and it was never a big deal -- the prop would occasionally come out of the water in heavy seas.

I heartily recommend that you consider the option of using an outboard. (And I know I'm going to get slammed by the many purists on this board, many for which money never seems to be an issue.)

P.S. By the way, I recently sold the Nissan because my Triton will be on the hard for a couple of years. But, when it goes back in the water, I'll be using an outboard again. This time, however, it'll be a bit smaller. (Rachel...again, I apologize.)
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Post by LazyGuy »

IMHO the real answer is in the confidence. If you have lost confidence in the A4 and no amount of money will restore it. You have your answer. Once I lost confidence in my Westerbeke, I was sort of relieved at finding 4 quarts of oil in the bilge. For multiple reasons there was no way for me to restore my confidence in the old girl. Timing for that chunk of change could have been better but that is ALWAYS true.

For aesthetics, there is nothing worse than hanging an outboard on the back end of a sailboat; particularly a classic sailboat such as a Triton. I also understand that replacing the A4 with a diesel is a chunk of change that is probably bigger than the market value of the boat.

I hope there is a rea$onable amount of work that would restore faith in your A4 but if it would cost more to restore confidence than it would to buy an outboard, bracket and controls then you have your answer. One word of caution: If and when you buy an outboard bracket, ensure it is rated for turning the motor. Most are rated for the force straight ahead only and breaking the bracket is no different than your A4 conking out. You know it would happen as you were backing into a slip between two Hinkleys, 6 kts of current going left to right and a 25 knot breeze going right to left.

Good luck in your decision.
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Post by triton318 »

LazyGuy wrote:For aesthetics, there is nothing worse than hanging an outboard on the back end of a sailboat; particularly a classic sailboat such as a Triton.
I guess it all depends on what your priorities are. If it's important to you to have a Triton that retains its original looks and lines and could be on the cover of some sailing magazine, then I guess you wouldn't want to hang an outboard on the back end of a sailboat. On the other hand, if your main priority is to have a safe, comfortable Triton that you can get to a point where you can sail it and enjoy it, then so what if there's an outboard hanging on the stern? I guess a lot of people on this forum would frown at the Cetol covered wood on my boat, along with the stainless bow pulpit and bronze stern rail.
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Post by Rachel »

triton318 wrote:... along with the stainless bow pulpit and bronze stern rail.
Bronze stern rail? :drool: I'd like to see that. Did you make it?

Rachel

PS: No worries about the motor; really, I'm enjoying reading about how reliable and fuel-efficient it was ;) ;)
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Post by Hirilondë »

Oooh, I want a bronze pushpit. Of course I want a bronze pulpit and stantions to match. Not on the top of the list yet, will have to wait.
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Post by Quetzalsailor »

It took about a season after my A4's R&R in Galesville MD before I no longer fretted about the thing quitting in close quarters. I continued to pick up the mooring, or to dock under sail just to stay in practice.

In the years before its R&R, I used to ponder replacing the nasty rusty thing with a nice new outboard; all the hotter, seriously racing M 27s had 'em instead of the A4. It was always cheaper to fix than to replace, even including the upper end rebuild which finally cured its' woes.

I'll stick with my 316 stainless pul- and pushpits. I'm not interested in polishing bronze, however lovely it would be!
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Post by Zach »

I adore my little mercury 6 horse, 4 stroke outboard. Sips fuel, reverse actually works and docking is the same as docking my old 23 foot trailer sailer.

I like my Garelick mount. Spring loaded so its easy to pick the outboard up clear of the water. Only downside, is mine does not have an adjustable angle bracket so I had an aluminum chock welded up to give something plumb for the bracket to bolt to. The transom isn't flat in any direction... so if you try to bolt a flat plate to it you'll have to add a wooden pad under it. (My outboard was a quick fix when I was bringing her home... sheared the key in the shaft coupling.)

Yeah, they are oogly... but if you are the form follows function, you probably find the lines of the Triton beautiful for they are the lines of a good sea boat. An outboard won't bug you... much of the time.

Keep the inboard if you don't need the storage space.

Grin!

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Post by Rachel »

Quetzalsailor wrote:I'll stick with my 316 stainless pul- and pushpits. I'm not interested in polishing bronze, however lovely it would be!
Of course that's the beauty of bronze: It doesn't need to be polished. How I longed for bronze pulpits and stanchions in southern climes, where polishing the rust off the (good-quality) stainless was a regular chore. Give me a nice layer of verdigris any day!

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Post by Tim »

Rust is just steel's version of verdigris.
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Post by Hirilondë »

Quetzalsailor wrote: I'm not interested in polishing bronze, however lovely it would be!
*shudder*

I don't polish my bronze chocks, cleats, sampson post, or even my cabinet mounted bronze bottle opener. I sure wouldn't polish anything that big and exposed.
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Post by Rachel »

Tim wrote:Rust is just steel's version of verdigris.
I didn't realize that. I've always thought that verdigris was a somewhat protective layer for bronze, but I didn't know that rust did that for stainless. That is, I thought that if you let the rust "develop" it would harm the stainless, eventually. Live and learn.

The other difference for me is that our patinaed bronze never left tracks, no matter how long we left it (never polished it at all), whereas the rusting stainless left unappealing streaks (even 316 in warm climes).

But then I'm an admitted Bronze Addict :D

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Post by Tim »

I said that more than a little tongue-in-cheek, but both iron oxide (rust) and what we call verdigris are the metals' way of forming a protective layer--the outer surface oxidizes and helps protect what lies beneath.

They're not really the same, and yes, iron oxide in certain situations can be more harmful to the base metal.

That said, I've not seen the minor surface corrosion that forms on things like stainless steel pulpits to ever cause real harm to the metal. But it is unsightly and can cause streaking, as you say.
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Post by David »

Rachel, I have never seen streaks or tracks of rust from stainless steel on my boat—in Florida for 20+ years. I have seen 316 have local surface rust but certainly not rust streaks.

I have seen poorly welded stainless rust at the welds—probably because the welding rod was not compatible. The nice aspect about even discolored stainless or stainless with isolated rust spots is that a little Comet or other kitchen cleaner will remove the rust almost instantly.

My bobstay turnbuckle—316 stainless, after 10 years of use in the Gulf of Mexico: http://bristol29.com/Projects/bowspirt/ ... before.jpg
You can see some discoloration but no rust (the cotter pins are rusting but they are not 316)


All things of this world exposed to the air oxidize. Stainless steel’s protective layer is oxidation as is aluminum. Stainless steel rusts where that oxidation layer is disturbed. Repassivation of the stainless steel surface with a mild acid renews the protective layer.

The brown patina on bronze is new bare bronze oxidizing. It is a protective layer to some extent, also is considered the first stage of corrosion (I know this is heresy to say on this forum) and the patina can be attacked by sulfur and chlorine levels of pollution in the local atmosphere combined with moisture—acid rain, really and expressed usually as a green tint of copper sulfate. Depending on the levels of pollution and the composition of the bronze, the patination can assume a range of color from brown to green and not necessarily uniform depending on how the bronze was cast, materials and the galvanic corrosion of the componds—differences in nobility in copper and tin or zinc—in the material. The patina like the oxidation on stainless and aluminum does act as a protective layer but given enough time further degradation will form with bronze including pitting and stress cracking.
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Post by Bluenose »

For aesthetics, there is nothing worse than hanging an outboard on the back end of a sailboat; particularly a classic sailboat such as a Triton.
I completely agree although after some of the other common assaults on aesthetics like mast steps, radar masts, stern rail BBQs and propane tanks, extra gas tanks, kayaks etc., picking on the outboard seems a bit unfair.

I am a little surprise that electric propulsion for sailboats aren't more popular. I often hear many boaters say that they need their engine to get in and out of a tight slips or narrow channel. It seem to me that an electric motor could work very well in situations like this.

Obviously if cruising required many hours of motoring each day this wouldn't work. But I would work pretty hard to remove the grand experience of motoring in a diesel with a following breeze :).

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Post by Rachel »

David wrote:Rachel, I have never seen streaks or tracks of rust from stainless steel on my boat—in Florida for 20+ years. I have seen 316 have local surface rust but certainly not rust streaks.
As I think back, we didn't have much rust, or any rust streaks, while we were in southern California either, but only after we got out cruising in the tropics. There we saw quite a bit of it on other folks' boats too. I guess it was the combination of being in even warmer air and water, and having salt water and constant wind-blown salt spray on the boat.

I guess we've got a bit off the motor topic here - I'm sorry about that.

Back to outboard motors...

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Post by Tim »

Bluenose wrote:I am a little surprise that electric propulsion for sailboats aren't more popular. I often hear many boaters say that they need their engine to get in and out of a tight slips or narrow channel. It seem to me that an electric motor could work very well in situations like this.
Give it time, and this will probably change. Viable, specifically-designed electric motors are rather new to the sailboat market. For now, the price is still high, and if you don't happen to live in a plugged-in slip, the recharging is an issue. These issues can combine to prevent many people from taking this step just yet.

More and more people are gaining interest in electric propulsion. For many, though, there are practicable limitations to this that wouldn't suit their situation. At least not yet.
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Post by David »

Jim Spaulding converted his Atkins packet cruiser Rose to electric power and has a good detailed description of his struggles and eventual solution in his book: Rebuilding Rose: The Tale of an Atkins Packet Sloop


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Post by Allen »

triton318 wrote:I can think of only one drawback, and it was never a big deal -- the prop would occasionally come out of the water in heavy seas.
I'll have to disagree with you that this isn't a big deal. The last sailboat I owned with an outboard on it had the mount break while pounding through some rough seas. The propeller would come out of the water, letting the engine wind up then slam the engine against the mount when it entered the water. I had a good mount too so it wasn't a quality issue they are just not designed for that type of service.

Consider that if you get pooped you are most likely going to lose engine power so be prepared to sail when you would otherwise be motoring.

I would also be concerned about battery charging if you are going to do any extended living aboard and plan on spending much time on the hook.
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Post by Rachel »

Allen,

I can see your point about the ventilation, but I'm not in the same camp on charging. I know people do use their engines for that, but my feeling is that if you're living aboard and want power for that, it's better to invest in other means of generating, such as solar panels, wind or towing generators, or even (mock shudder) a Honda generator.

I'm not saying no-one should ever use their engine for battery charging - we certainly did - but I wouldn't use lack of ability to do so as a point against an outboard, since it's not a really the way to go anyway (and outboards will charge if they are being heavily used).

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Post by forrest »

I have an outboard. I'm not passionate about the argument one way or the other. But recently the OB was giving me trouble, in fifteen minutes and a truck ride and it was sitting on a stand in my shop... that's really handy.
On the other hand I feel like having the prop aft of the rudder makes steering a bit strange.

It seems like a six to one, half dozen to the other situation.
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Post by Bluenose »

Consider that if you get pooped you are most likely going to lose engine power so be prepared to sail when you would otherwise be motoring.
I certainly haven't done a lot of motoring in classic sailboats, but do Triton's handle adverse weather better using their motor than they do under sail? Is that why you would rather be motoring than sailing in conditions where you might get pooped?
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Post by Case »

Time.

Lots of people are in a hurry so they motor.

That's all it is. I personally don't understand motoring when there are lots of wind. Sailboats nowadays really are used like motorboats. They are only sailed when its convenient...

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Post by Tim »

This thread's going off track.

Done.
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