Small, affordable bluewater?

[Chris Campbell]

With Weatherbird all but sold (the bank draft is in transit) I'm spending some time beginning the hunt for the next boat. I'm almost embarrassed to post this question to this forum, since I don't think I want a Triton, but - here are my criteria, and what I've come up with so far:

Safe, seaworthy, strong, quick, comfortable, small (under 10,000 lbs.), beautiful, standing headroom (I'm 5'10" or so), rudder well aft, fiberglass or cold molded, dodger and bimini possible, diesel, decent galley, enclosed head, and of course inexpensive (< $20K) and possible to sail home to Nova Scotia.

A list of contradictions, I know, but you have to start somewhere, and then let the compromises begin, right?

Here's what I've got so far: Yankee 30, Nimble 30, Aloha 28 (a bit light, but a friend has one that I can get for a song locally, which is tempting), Sabre 28 or 30, Vineyard Vixen 29, Sea Sprite 27/28, and a few others that are further from the ideal (I think).

Today (it varies quickly) I'm most tempted by the first three in the list. The Yankee has a great reputation as a solid performer, both for daysailing and for offshore work. It's small down below, but roomy enough for two of us, and does have standing headroom. Yankee has a reputation of building boats very well, so even though they are now at least 33 years old they're holding up well (aside from the cored decks, naturally). I like the fin keel with skeg-hung rudder combination, the low freeboard, and as long as there is an eyebrow stripe, the overall look of the boat. The Nimble is a lovely looking boat, and has a great reputation for build quality also. It's a Ted Brewer design, one that he feels is capable of offshore work. The one that is available is a centerboarder, which is less offshore-y, but he says it's still a sturdy ocean-going boat. The Aloha is another Brewer design which is a little lighter, but Ouyang Boat Works also has a good reputation for quality boats, and this one is a) local, and b) at a price that's hard to resist. Another boat with a fin keel and a skeg-hung rudder, and she's not bad looking, either.

Anyone care to weigh in with opinions on these boats? Or with suggestions for other ones? I'm open to entertaining anything, and figure that the more boats I consider the more likely I am to be happy with my choice in a few year's time.

Thanks for any and all input!

Cheers,

Chris

[MikeD]

It seems like someone around here had a Sabre 28 listed. A project boat. But heck, you could get it cheap and hire out the refit. And wouldn't it be really ideal if the owner could do even do the work for you and launch it. Now if only I could remember where I saw that boat....

[David]

Dana 24. Southern Cross 28. Not sure if either could be found for less than 20K though. I wouldn't put to sea in a Nimble anything. The Yankee would be cheap to find, but has a miniscule engine in the center of the cabin and the exhaust riser goes thru the main bulkhead into the head forward, an oddball arrangement. The use of woodgrained formica on the bulkheads and interior cabin sides isn't very nice but can be fixed. The Yankee is a sweet looking and good sailing boat with a very beefy rig.

[Case]

One comment on the Yankee 30: From the pictures, the cockpit looks awfully small. From what I read, it was enough of a problem that S&S designed the Yankee's much more famous near-sister (designed right afterwards), the Tartan 30 with a much larger cockpit. In many ways, they are near twins.

You spend lots of time in the cockpit so having a nice sized one is a plus. You might want to look at a Tartan 30. It even has the engine in the middle of the boat, behind the mast, just like the Yankee 30. Prices are about the same now (I think).

Other choices I can think of are: C&C Redwing, C&C 27, 29, and 30. C&Cs are more common in Canada but does seem costly as compared to those in the U.S. I've seen some C&C 30s that had fallen to 10-15k here in the US - C&C values are deflating fast along with most 1970s designs. Its a good time to buy right now...

Other choices include Alberg 30s, Pearson 28s, 30s, and the Catalina 30s. That's about I can add to your list - will have to think more on other 30 footers in the 20k range.

- Case

[Chris Campbell]

This forum really is amazing - great replies - lightning fast! Thanks!

Good point about that Sabre 28 project - I'll see if I can track it down and discuss it.

The Dana is a little small - she'd be pretty slow, methinks, but they are lovely - and expensive, tend to be around $50K, I think. I had been thinking of the Southern Cross 31, but it's too heavy (I want to drag it home on a trailer for the winter, and I also want to downsize, which also means down-weight, from my old boat). The 28 might be a good alternative. I hadn't thought much about it since I had read that it's not as seaworthy as it's bigger sister, but it's probably enough for my plans (Nova Scotia coastal cruising, perhaps over to Newfoundland, maybe one day to Bermuda).

You're right about the exhaust arrangement on the Yankee - weird. But I think the engine size is fine - Atomic IV originally, which is room for a 2 cyl diesel, either of which is plenty for that boat, no?

The Yankee's cockpit is small, but it's long enough to stretch out in, which is all I feel is necessary. I've looked at the Tartan 30 also, but for some reason find it looks homely compared to the Yankee. It's almost a foot wider, which will make it considerably less comfortable in a sloppy seaway, and while Tartan has a good reputation, I don't think it's as good as Yankee's. But that may be just the impression I've gotten. Most of what is available on the Yankee is on the owner's site, which is no doubt a little biased... Although they do have a lot of "testimonials" from former Yankee 30 owners, who oughtn't be biased anymore...

We had a Redwing 30 when I was growing up - beautiful boats! Heavy weather helm, though, and bad hobby-horsing in the right waves. As much as I love the look of long overhangs, that's one of the things I'm trying to stay away from this time around. C&C 27 (not the MkV) and C&C 30 MkI are two that I quite like - not as pretty as they might be, but wonderful to sail, and pretty remarkable interiors for their size. Not sure about sailing one to Bermuda, but perhaps that's the compromise.

For some reason I'm not drawn to the Alberg designs other than the Sea Sprite 23 and the Alberg 37. I think it's the nearly flat sheers. I say this at a whisper since I know he's a brilliant designer, and that the Cape Dorys, Pearsons, and others are really fantastic boats. But there you go - we all have our druthers.

There's a Pearson 30 nearby with a diesel and new radar for $6K (CDN) that someone sailed up from New York, but the review I read of them indicated that they really weren't built to stand up to hard use - great for the right purpose, though.

Thanks again, and feel free to chime in with rebuttals or boats not yet considered!

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris Campbell]

I wouldn't put to sea in a Nimble anything.

Why's that? I had the impression that the 30 was a proper sea-going boat, no?

[CharlieJ]

On his web site, James Baldwin ( The Triton Atom) just posted a list of 65 small boats, to be considered for blue water. You might find it interesting-

http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/boatlist.htm

[David]

I wouldn't put to sea in a Nimble anything.

Why's that? I had the impression that the 30 was a proper sea-going boat, no?

I just don't like Florida built boats and not a fan of Brewer.

[Case]

Just came up with two more designs - can be had cheaply if you look carefully. Fairly hard to find, though.

The two are Albin Cumulus and Albin Ballad. Both are built by Albin Marin (no relations to that other Ablin motorboat company). Its out of business since the 1980s but my impressions are that they seem to be well built with nice interiors.

As for seaworthiness, fairly lightweight sailboats can sail around the world just fine. Its really the preparation & skill of the owner that matters more than the boat itself. From my impressions from many round the world sailors, light air is a big problem in many areas. So light air performance is important. Many bluewater boats are terrible in light air.

- Case

[Chris Campbell]

James Baldwin's list is excellent - many on there are on mine, and a few are new to me, so thanks. Where can I find a Great Dane in my price range? Like a Contessa 26 or a folkboat with standing headroom...

There was an Albin Ballad on the Saint John River when I was growing up, always liked it. And the Albin Cumulus has attracted my attention, too - they're suprisingly cheap, considering the only thing obviously not quite right with them is that they have iron keels instead of lead - anyone know more about them?

I totally agree with the preparation and sailing skills vs. how well found the boat is, and also with the desire for a boat that can sail in light air. Heavy, under-canvased boats may remain comfortable and are probably ideal for tradewind passages, but for general summer sailing use, they'd be pretty dull and disappointing. I loved my Abbott 22, and would have sailed her anywhere, discomfort and all!

[Chris Campbell]

OK, here's a Great Dane - looks lovely. Now, anyone up for sailing from San Francisco to Halifax?

http://www.kabai.com/dane.htm

[David]

The biggest little boat you could find I think, and certainly blue water capable--they are often sailed in the Irish Sea and the North Sea--is the Westerly Centaur. A Giles design, 26' on deck, aft rudder, bilge keels, huge room below, typically with a Volvo MD2B. The ports suffer but new ports are available from England; the headliners typically deteriorate from UV and heat and need replacement or an alternative; and I personally don't like how the aft lowers attach to the cabin sides (I would change that design). But they are great little boats and more room than a lot of 30 footers.

Another boat to consider is the Bristol 29.9. A Herreshoff design about 200 were built. They carry 10ft of beam and about a 24ft waterline. Modified fin keel and aft skeg rudder. Nice boats and huge amounts of room below.

[CharlieJ]

James Baldwin's list is excellent - many on there are on mine, and a few are new to me, so thanks. Where can I find a Great Dane in my price range? Like a Contessa 26 or a folkboat with standing headroom...

I think you can forget about either of those with standing headroom. I don't think it's gonna happen, particularly with the Folkboat.

only thing obviously not quite right with them is that they have iron keels instead of lead

Obviously not quite right?? My 47 year old Rhodes Meridian has an iron keel. What do you see as the problem? If the boat is designed for a certain amount of ballast, and the iron ballast does it, what's the difference?

[David]

<<But I think the engine size is fine - Atomic IV originally, which is room for a 2 cyl diesel, either of which is plenty for that boat, no? >>

I think originally they came with a tiny Albin of about zero hp. The Yanmar 2GM20 would be perfect for her.

[Case]

I've read lots about the Albin Cumulus and the Albin Ballad... haven't read about cast iron being used. From what I recall, its lead.

I could be wrong, though. European designs are pretty hit and miss whether it has iron or lead for the ballast. Beneteau is a good example - they're assumed to use iron for ballast but a fair number I have seen actually had lead, particularly for the First Series model line. There are a couple of nice old early 1980s First Series Beneatus that looks interesting but they're all over in Europe, not here.

If anybody have a specific link showing that the two Albins had cast iron instead of lead, let me know. I'll like to see it so to know for sure. Those two are particularly interesting for me, always had an eye for them for a couple of years.

The Contessa 26 and the Folkboat, the ballast in these boats are most definitely cast iron... so there's nothing wrong with cast iron. Lead is definitely better, though. Definitely no headroom there - only a little more headroom than my Sea Sprite 23 which is terrible down under.

- Case

[Chris Campbell]

Sorry - I've spawned some confusion. I wasn't saying that the Contessa or the Folkboat had standing headroom, but that the Great Dane did - and thus was like a Contessa 26 or a Folkboat with standing headroom.

My preference for lead over iron in the keel is mostly due to an aversion to rust, but also because I like the shock absorber that lead provides if you have the unfortunate experience of hitting Nova Scotia granite, and because it doesn't react with anything. It's also more dense, and while that does mean something it's not the most significant reason to like it. That said, I would never turn a boat down simply because the keel was made of the wrong material. Or I don't think I would at least...

I'll try to find the reference that said the Cumulus' keel was iron and post it. I have no idea about the Ballad, but I'll go looking for that, also. If only I could read Swedish or there was an online translator that worked, there is lots of information online then!

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris Campbell]

Here's a reference: http://www.kotikone.fi/eero.kareoja/vene/cumulus.html
Under "Main dimensions" is "Keel material" "steel"

Another reference, the first one I noticed - and this person started out this thread preferring steel keels: https://listserv.surfnet.nl/scripts/wa. ... 20&P=14765

And the Ballad has lead, encapsulated, apparently: http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/boat_a ... boat_id=51

Cheers,

Chris

[Case]

Thanks for the links. That was news - did not know the Cumulus had a cast iron (or steel) ballast. I somehow missed that in my readings.

Still like the boat anyway - just needs a bit more maintenance per year (unless its encapsulated).

Now that Ablin Ballad in the link - I wish more brokers were like that. Most brokers are just too lazy, has lousy pictures, or just don't have enough pictures.

The picture of the table support in the cabin is particularly interesting, its probably custom made by the owner. A great solution for many sailboats under 30 feet...

- Case

[Peter]

Safe, seaworthy, strong, quick, comfortable, small (under 10,000 lbs.), beautiful, standing headroom (I'm 5'10" or so), rudder well aft, fiberglass or cold molded, dodger and bimini possible, diesel, decent galley, enclosed head, and of course inexpensive (< $20K) and possible to sail home to Nova Scotia.

Except for an inch less head room that you need, and the 'beautiful' part, the Albin Vegafits your list nicely. I've had mine for three years (a record for me).
Recently I had the 'hots' for an Albin Ballad, but on inspecting one that I 'accidently' moored beside in a foreign port, I would not trade a single feature for my Vega, except maybe the slightly wider side decks. They do have a lead keel, encupsulated in fiberglass. Here is a Ballad Brief.in case you're interested.

Me? I'll stick with my Vega!
Just my 2 cents (Cdn.) worth :-)
Best of luck with your search!

[Figment]

A bit small in the LOD, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix just as a fun direction: Stone Horse.

[Bluenose]

A bit small in the LOD, but I thought I'd throw it into the mix just as a fun direction: Stone Horse.

I also think that the Stonehorse is a fun and interesting direction. I have always thought that there is a lot to like about the Stonehorse. They throw up a really nice amount of sail area in a very flexible twin headed sail plan. Nice anchor storage on the bow sprit and a very simple rig with easily manage small sails. Their cabin is probably one of the more spartan of this group but with some imagination and a sense of adventure...

I also think they might make an interesting engineless choice and removing the inboard would gain a bunch of storage.

Funny though, James Baldwin did an extensive renovation of one a few years ago but they didn't make his list.

And a few stolen pictures cause I love the looks of them.

[Chris Campbell]

Wow. That is a beauty, and that particular one is not too far away, on a trailer, and ready to go. I'm going to my doctor shortly to look into being surgically altered so that she'll have standing headroom for me - if that doesn't work, I'll have to evaluate the possibility of compromising on that criterion.

There were a few wooden Stone Horses on the Saint John River when I was growing up - they always drew the eye, and always seemed to be sailed well.

Anyone here have any experience sailing on one?

[Marshall Wright]

Although the Pacific Seacraft 25 does not have headroom, it is laid out below to compensate for it. When I first bought mine, I had constant backache from trying to stoop over and do everything. Then I realized, as in many older boats lacking headroom, everything that one needs to do below, has a place to sit adjacent to it. Quite useable once you get used to it. Have a bench to sit on when cooking, another when prepping food, to reach into the icechest, to reach into every locker.....

With that caveat, look up the yahoo psc25 group. Number of boat have recently come up for sale. Most are well within your price range.

This boat is a solid, well made, and a classic good looker. It is also trailerable. The rollover coefficient may not be as high as you'd like if you're really going cross ocean, but within bluewater recommendations.

Hope this is helpful.

Marshalll

[Bluenose]

Small, affordable bluewater?

Safe, seaworthy, strong, quick, comfortable, small (under 10,000 lbs.), beautiful, standing headroom (I'm 5'10" or so), rudder well aft, fiberglass or cold molded, dodger and bimini possible, diesel, decent galley, enclosed head, and of course inexpensive (< $20K) and possible to sail home to Nova Scotia.

Okay, I am going to get a bunch of flack for this opinion but I think that you only get two out three criteria when you are looking for small, beautiful "and" standing headroom. When I look at many of the small boats mentioned, some of which I quite like, I don't think their dog house cabintops are beautiful. Many are quite well done within the limitation of their design, but you do pay a price for trying to get standing headroom in a small boat.

It seems in the old days if you wanted standing headroom you added length not additional freeboard or coach roof height. I guess where I am going with this is, if it were me, I would try to find out what criteria are really, really important and focus on those. It seems to me that the more criteria that are added to describe the perfect boat the further you get from each individual goal.

Of course the caveat here, which everyone here already knows, is that I am a fanatic about my criteria’s. My vision of beauty starts with something like a Concordia Yawl and works down from there, not from a Hunter working up. Same with sailing performance. I am willing to commit, some would say sacrifice, to achieve my ideals and goals.

Happy Hunting, Bill

[Chris Campbell]

Bill - I fully agree with your start at the Concordia Yawl and work down analogy. I'm moving down from a truly gorgeous boat (the LeComte Northeast 38), which is a tough act to follow, but I don't want to be rowing away from her replacement with a sinking feeling each time that I should have kept her. I want to feel free, and love my new boat.

The criteria I have set out (there are actually more than I wrote in the original posting, but they're less sweeping, more specific, and therefore more distracting) are just a starting point - as the search and evaluations go on I'll be figuring out which ones are important and which ones aren't. To date, the standing headroom requirement is more from my partner than from me (she's 5'4" - I guess I should have used her height instead of mine in the original post) - when we sailed our Roue she ended up with a sore back every time, and isn't willing to chance the same thing again.

Marshall - I forwarded Beth your post in case she finds she's willing to drop the standing headroom requirement - you never know. I don't want to talk her into it, though, in case she still ends up with a sore back and we have to go shopping again (although shopping is kinda fun, of course)! With Weatherbird we did two different kinds of sailing (I think this is pretty standard for most of us, actually) - we daysail, alone and with friends - getting out after work on beautiful days and on weekend days when we can't devote the whole weekend to sailing; and we take an annual trip for as long as we can swing - 2,3 or once in a long while 4 weeks aboard. We live for those trips, which is important for me to keep in mind: a boat (like the Stone Horse?) that daysails like a dream might not suit us for that very important part of our annual sailing quota - the longish-distance trip. These trips take us east or west along the Atlantic coast of Nova Scotia, across the Bay of Fundy to New Brunswick or the Gulf of Maine to Maine - and future plans probably go further afield.

Maybe I can put a mizzen on a Yankee 30 to distract from the height of the cabin trunk?

[Summersdawn]

I'm 6'4", and the headroom in my San Juan 24 is 5'2". I agree with the statement that on these older boats lacking headroom, everything one needs to do down below can be easily done by sitting. The problem isn't with people a foot taller than the headroom though. It is tempting to stand in a boat that is an inch or two too low, which can lead to a sore neck/back. My parents had a 27' Catalina, and I found I would get a sore neck frequently in that boat, as it was just a little too short for me to stand completely upright.

The only real way of knowing whether or not the lack of standing headroom is going to bother a particular person is to spend a lot of time on a boat.

[Bluenose]

Well I certainly agree that your new boat has big shoes to fill. Your Northeast 38 is a beauty.

[Tim]

The problem isn't with people a foot taller than the headroom though. It is tempting to stand in a boat that is an inch or two too low...

Yeah, I think it's far worse to almost have standing headroom--sure to lead to discomfort and head-banging.

Be sure there's either real standing headroom, or none at all. That in-between stage would be frustrating.

Fortunately, being under 6' tall means that there are many viable and not-unattractive options available for 28'-30' boats with standing headroom without looking like tubs. Still, in smaller boats standing headroom will require the arguable compromise of a higher cabin trunk. To my way of thinking, my height (5'-9"), and the way I choose to use a boat, this is a worthy compromise, but I wouldn't go too far with it either--that is, I wouldn't expect to find a 28-footer with standing headroom for someone over 6' without beginning to seriously compromise the boat's appearance in an unacceptable way.

[Summersdawn]

The problem isn't with people a foot taller than the headroom though. It is tempting to stand in a boat that is an inch or two too low...

Yeah, I think it's far worse to almost have standing headroom--sure to lead to discomfort and head-banging.

Be sure there's either real standing headroom, or none at all. That in-between stage would be frustrating.

Fortunately, being under 6' tall means that there are many viable and not-unattractive options available for 28'-30' boats with standing headroom without looking like tubs. Still, in smaller boats standing headroom will require the arguable compromise of a higher cabin trunk. To my way of thinking, my height (5'-9"), and the way I choose to use a boat, this is a worthy compromise, but I wouldn't go too far with it either--that is, I wouldn't expect to find a 28-footer with standing headroom for someone over 6' without beginning to seriously compromise the boat's appearance in an unacceptable way.

Which is why I have never been in a huge hurry to move up! Some day I will have to, as with my wife, 2 kids (they are still small), and a dog, the boat can occasionally be a bit cramped down below, and as the kids continue to grow (they are 4 and 7), it will only get worse. However, I think that it will make my wife happy.


I think this is a reasonably decent looking 28 footer with standing headroom - I believe it is 6'2", unfortunately, not quite enough for me, but may be of interest to other people over 6'. However, probably not a "bluewater cruiser".

[Case]

Got one more classic sailboat with partial headroom (doghouse only)...

Tartan 27.

I was a little surprised nobody mentioned it before, including myself. Shame on myself.

One other choice is an Ericson 25+ or 26. Quite tubby but as well done as you could ask for a 26 footer with full headroom. Certainly fails the "Plastic Classic" litmus test but a nice boat for what it is.

- Case

[Ancient Race]

Got one more classic sailboat with partial headroom (doghouse only)...

Tartan 27.

I was a little surprised nobody mentioned it before, including myself. Shame on myself. - Case

I hesitated to suggest it because, although it's definitely strong and comfortable, has almost sufficient headroom for me at 6' and will take you anywhere you might care to go, even I don't consider it pretty. And I own one.

Still, it's a hell of a big boat at 27'.

So consider Case's recommendation seconded, with the above disclaimers.

Greg

[Chris Campbell]

Tartan and Bristol 27's are both on the list, but they're both definitely at the small end. I actually find the Tartan 27 quite appealing - there isn't one on the market ("the market" meaning yachtworld and any other online source that I search with any regularity) right now that I'm particularly enamored with, though.

How do you find yours to sail, Greg?

Today my favourites are Yankee 30, Sabre 30, Cape Dory 30 (there is a slightly damaged one in my price range) and my friend's Aloha 28. Not sure what they'll be tomorrow.

Oh - there are also some wooden boats that make me wonder how crazy I am:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981153/0
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1975576/0 (larger version of the Stone Horse, sorta)
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1839406/0

But I don't think I'm that crazy. Or that hard a worker, or something.

Thanks again for all of the great ideas - what a treat to get to spend time dreaming of the next voyage!

[Case]

My favorite Tartan 27 in Yachtworld is this one:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1965/Ta ... ted-States

I am probably a little strange but I find the light blue interior to be oddly attractive...

Regarding that Stonehorse-lookalike, theres a similar 28 footer or so near where I live. It sails very well in light air, competitive with my 23 foot Sea Sprite. The Sea Sprite 23 is quite good in light airs below 8 knots with a genoa. I beat almost everybody. That 28 footer Stonehorse lookalike (its grey, just like the one in the Yachtworld ad) actually beat me quite a few times. So its light air performance is quite good. In case anybody has gone to the Basin in Phippsburg, Maine recently, that boat is moored there.


- Case

[Ancient Race]

How do you find yours to sail, Greg?

Well, there's almost no conditions in which I've felt insecure. A T27 is up to almost anything - including the freighter-killing deep, steep, rapid-frequency waves and big air Lake Erie can generate. And the centerboard makes it very conducive to gunkholing, where draft is at a premium.

OTOH, it's 7,400 pounds and its light air performance is about what you'd expect. Then again, I race a Jet 14, and my last keel boat was a J/22. So quick is a relative thing.

All in all, I certainly wouldn't check it off your shortlist. Especially as a number are available at reasonable prices, depending on the level of project you're interested in undertaking.

Greg

[Rachel]

I'll toss in the Tripp/Lentsch 29 and Tripp 30. They're the right size and price range, and if you've had a Northeast 38 I have to assume you'd find them beautiful. They both have external lead ballast and about 5'11"-6' (+?) of headroom.

The one thing you couldn't say about them is that they have "rudders well aft." They both have a below-the-waterline profile similar to a Triton, but with the rudder-post a bit more forward. I'm curious what your reasons are for not wanting that; not to talk you out of what you want, but to learn something. We've never had a definitive answer to the "why the added fin" question on a couple of those boats - maybe you can shed some light on it (or maybe those folks were just falling prey to a new fad...)

Rachel

[Chris Campbell]

The Tripp/Lentsch 29 and Tripp 30 are indeed lovely boats, much like smaller versions of Weatherbird, as you point out. And you'd think that would be exactly what I was looking for, since I loved Weatherbird dearly, and maybe it is what I should be looking for - but...

Weatherbird had a couple of traits that I didn't like, so I'm looking to minimize them, while maximizing the things that I did like (which is a much longer list). What I didn't like was: the amount of money involved in owning and keeping her; her tendency to hobbyhorse when wave conditions were just right; and the effort of her helm under certain conditions.

So - a smaller boat, one with shorter overhangs, and one with the rudder further aft are all on my list of desirables. I have to tell you that forgoing long overhangs is the hardest - I've always been a sucker for overhangs, from an aesthetic point of view - but the fact they make a boat longer than it needs to be, and increase its tendency to hobbyhorse has me willing to do without on this next boat. As far as the rudder further aft goes - it bothered me that I needed to dial in 10-15 degrees of helm (noticed more after I installed an autopilot and had a rudder position monitor right in front of me) to keep her going straight - and even more under some circumstances (broad reaching in strong winds). This may turn out to be my bad sailing, of course, but I have a strong sense that a rudder further aft, with the consequently greater lever arm to extert turning moment on the boat, will reduce the angle of standing helm required. The MkIII NE 38s and later Medalists all have a spade rudder, which, while not being as protected or protective of the prop, move the rudder much further aft, and improve the situation greatly.

As far as those strange fins that we've seen on a couple of the Tripps, I can only speculate along with the rest. I expect they're there to move the CLR aft, to reduce weather helm. Whether or not they work, of course... The fact that they're not simply an extension of the keel is promising, since it seems that the majority of the lift of a keel is generated at its leading edge - but the water passing over them, having just been disturbed by the keel in front of them must be pretty turbulent, so it's hard to say how well they'd work. Of course I'm no boat designer, just a person happy to speculate along with the rest!

I hope this hasn't been too tedious - I actually edited it down repeatedly - but I can babble about boats all day, contradicting myself cheerfully all the while.

By way of an update on the search, my current favourite is a Sabre 30, followed closely by the Yankee 30. Funny about the Sabre - I don't think it deserves the title 'bluewater' - but for some reason I'm drawn to it, and I think it will be fun to sail.

Cheers,

Chris

[MikeD]

How about the Cheoy Lee's: the Offshore 27 and, my personal favorite, the Frisco Flyer?

[Chris Campbell]

They certainly look lovely, don't they! I don't think the Flyer has standing headroom, which probably rules it out. Beth and I were discussing the headroom issue and neither of us can picture spending a month aboard without it, and we do like to spend 3-4 weeks aboard each summer. The Offshore 27, or Newell Cadet as the Cheoy Lee Association website seems to call it looks quite a bit like a folkboat with standing headroom and a stern overhang, doesn't it. Kind of a prettier Tartan or Bristol 27, with more teak. They're pretty old, but Cheoy Lee did a great job on everything but decks, from my understanding, so maybe that doesn't matter. There is this one in Maine, ad doesn't say much about it - and it appears to have a butterfly hatch on its foredeck. Surely that's just sitting there, and hasn't been permanently affixed? I'll get in touch with the broker on that one and see what's up.

Does anyone have any experience with the Offshore 27 - or any of the Cheoy Lees from the mid-to-late 60's?

[Triton 185]

I have to tell you that forgoing long overhangs is the hardest - I've always been a sucker for overhangs, from an aesthetic point of view - but the fact they make a boat longer than it needs to be, and increase its tendency to hobbyhorse has me willing to do without on this next boat.

I agree that shorter overhangs can give you more space especially in smaller boats. Hobby horsing is not caused by long overhangs, but by a hull that has too low a prismatic coefficient. You sure have a great location to sail in. Good luck with your search.

[Summersdawn]

How about a Vancouver 27? They're a little hard to find on this side of the pond, but are decent looking, very roomy, offshore capable, and have a skeg hung rudder well aft.

[David]

but the fact they make a boat longer than it needs to be, and increase its tendency to hobbyhorse has me willing to do without on this next boat.

Long overhangs don't create hobby horsing, poorly distributed weight creates it. Long overhangs (by modern standards, not the overhangs of NG Herreshoff) add tremendous bouyancy to the boat, giving the bow much more power to not be submerged by seas and allowing a gentle passage--if that is possible--for stern seas. They offer less wetting suface downwind and a longer waterline and more speed to windward.

[Chris Campbell]

This is new information for me about the prismatic coefficient being involved with hobbyhorsing - but of course it makes sense. The less fullness in the ends, the more likely the boat is to bounce on them. Especially if there is too much weight in them. So naturally long overhangs indicate a lower prismatic coefficient - but other hulls can have that without the long overhangs. Interesting.

The poorly distributed weight problem is much more likely on a boat with long overhangs, of course, since you have locker space in the overhangs that is oh-so tempting to use. And of course an anchor and it's rode stuck out there at the pointy end.

But I do see the point that a boat with overhangs doesn't have to suffer from hobbyhorsing, and that some that don't have long ones might.

Today's new boat on the list is the Hallberg Rassy Monsun. It's actually been there all along, but today is "research the Monsun day". She's a nice boat - a little on the ponderous side, perhaps, when compared with a fin-keeled boat, but well built, bluewater, and the only Hallberg Rassy I'm likely to be able to afford...

The Vancouver 27 (and the 25) have been on the list for some time, too - but the 27 is too expensive for me, and the 25 is too, um, tiny or something. I know they're roomy inside, but they look so odd outside, like a stuffed sausage or something (sorry to anyone who has one or loves one!) - I don't think that would work for me. Not that the Monsun or the Yankee 30 is an amazing looker, of course, but they're somehow stretched a little longer to pull it off.

Continued thanks to all!

[Case]

Why not check out some of the old 1980s Beneteau First Series? Especially those ranging from 28 feet to 35 feet. Fairly fast, nicely designed and to my eye, the looks are aging very well - certainly MUCH better than their 1990s successors.

The downsides probably are lots of metric stuff onboard that may be hard to get in North America (not sure about Canada, though). Cast iron or steel are used as ballast in most cases. The supply is a little tight on this side of the Atlantic Ocean which may cause the prices to be a little higher than normal (compared to contemporaries). Simply being a French design might be a turnoff to some...

- Case

[David]

As far as the rudder further aft goes - it bothered me that I needed to dial in 10-15 degrees of helm (noticed more after I installed an autopilot and had a rudder position monitor right in front of me) to keep her going straight - and even more under some circumstances (broad reaching in strong winds). This may turn out to be my bad sailing, of course, but I have a strong sense that a rudder further aft, with the consequently greater lever arm to extert turning moment on the boat, will reduce the angle of standing helm required.

Moving your rudder aft will not reduce that 10 - 15 degrees of weather helm; it will only reduce the amount of effort needed to keep the helm to weather. Proper weatherhelm is from about 5 to 10 degrees so I don't think it is excessive, but if it is then a detatched rudder further aft might only exacerbate the problem, through either ventilation as the boat heels and exposes the top of the rudder to the air, or from just stalling and letting the boat round up. The great thing about a keel-hung rudder is how deep it is and how effective it is as part of a foil for lift.

[Chris Campbell]

I thought that if the effort were reduced, it would reduce the angle that the rudder needed to be turned to to generate that effort. So the amount of weather helm being induced isn't reduced - the hull generates the same tendency to turn up into the wind - but the energy the rudder needs to generate to counter it is reduced since it's acting through a longer lever arm. Since it needs to generate less effort to counter it, it also generates less drag, since it's through redirection of the forward energy of the boat that turning energy is created.

At least that's how I understand it, but I haven't studied naval architecture, so I'm easily wrong.

You're right about the ventilating, of course - my Abbott 22 had a transom-hung rudder (can't get much further back than that) which would let the boat round up in a puff if you didn't dump the main in time as it lifted mostly out of the water. And of course surface-piercing rudders aren't as effective as ones which are completely underwater. Lots of trade-offs, no question! But if an attached rudder well forward is fast, why are most boats sporting detached spades toward the back of the boat these days?

[David]

The angle would remain the same..the effort would be reduced--it's just a longer lever arm. The rudder would still be cranked over--if the WH is bad enough the rudder would still be cranked over enough to slow you down considerably, you just won't notice the "pull" from the tiller. It's why some people just love wheel steering and why its really necessary on larger boats since the level of effort can be multiplied much more than with a tiller. (It is also why some people believe the way to reduce WH is to make the rudder larger--it doesnt work and in fact creates more drag but with wheel steering you wouldn't really notice.)

As to the latest trends in boat designs. Where do you start: they dont have full keels anymore, nor basically any underbody so there is nothing to attach a rudder to, just a little fin thing. Owners want boats with huge cockpits for parties, and they want big destroyer helms so that means moving the rudder aft. They want their boat to back up just like their giant SUV, so a spade rudder is lovely for that. They want lots of garage and back portch back there for God knows what--requiring an aft rudder. They want their boat to emmulate current ocean racers--so manufacturers give them similar "knockoff" underbodies (thus the use of winged keels on Hunters and other boats).

In Florida we see mostly Benetoys, Hunters, Catalinas, all with spade rudders. When out of the water on jack stands, it's a very rare thing to not see spyder cracks in the bottom radiating out from the rudder post where it enters the rudder bearing--even in practically new boats.

[David]

Regarding current designs. The most blatant example must be the Shannon Sholesailor 32 which sports a cockpit as wide as my boat is long, and two helms. It is amazing how focus group-based marketing can ruin a company's reputation.

You can see a photo of the cockpit here if you scroll down:
http://bristol29.com/miami.htm

David

[Chris Campbell]

Ok. I've bought a 1972 Yankee 30 project boat with decks recored with divinycell and repowered with a Universal diesel. Lots to do, but a good solid platform to do it on.

I'll start a new thread for project updates once I get set up a bit more to do them - currently I have to finish the wood shed project to protect our winter's firewood from all the rain (and snow!) we're getting, once that's done I'm planning a Stimson shed, then the boat projects begin.

Pictures are mostly from the seller, but a few at the end of the boat loaded on the trailer I also bought, behind the truck I also bought... http://www.chrick.com/thumbnails.php?album=36. My host has been intermittent today, the mySQL database seems to go down from time to time, so if that link doesn't work, try again later if you're curious enough.

Quite a bit different from Weatherbird (and has no name to report just yet), but I'm pleased! I think she's going to be a great boat for us.

Cheers,

Chris

[Shark]

Congratulations on your purchase.

What's her story? Where did you find her etc.

[David]

Nice boat! Congrats and good luck with her.

David