Major Leak - Unknown Source

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:50 pm

I either ran aground or collided with debris in late October when delivering the boat for a regatta. That incident has me very worried.

I finally got the boat home two Sunday's ago. I did not go to the boat until this past Saturday. When I went below, I found several inches of water above the cabin sole.

I pumped it out, dried everything off, and installed a heavy duty dehumidifier. I checked all hoses and thru-hulls and could not find an obvious source of a leak (there had been no rain at all that week). I left mystified and returned Sunday to investigate further.

Again I could not find a source. I turned off the bilge pump and left the boat for five hours. When I returned, the bilge had about 6 inches more water in it. Again, no obvious source.

Same story this evening (though the bilge water was only up to the float switch). I just got back from the boat.

I really think I have an issue with the keel/keel bolts. I'm calling the yard tomorrow to schedule a haul out for as soon as they can fit me in.

Any thoughts? (Other than "Oh Crap" - I've got that one covered)

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:12 pm

Any chance it's the rudder tube, or are you sure it was a keel hit?

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:17 am

I'm sure it was the keel that took the hit. The rudder is hung from the transom. Even if it sheared off, the damage would be above the waterline.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:37 am

Assuming you've eliminated all your other below-waterline penetrations (all through hulls, stuffing box, etc) as a realistic source of that amount of bilge water, then it does sound as if you may have no other choice but a haulout for inspection of the keel joint and adjacent areas.

Good luck with the haulout. Keep us updated.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:27 am

Were you motoring? Any chance the prop hit something and broke the stern tube/shaft log loose?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:14 pm

Hmmm, I wrote a reply to this thread, but it seems to have disappeared. J-Boats are the single largest contributor to the income of our fiberglass department. As a matter of fact we have one in our work bay right now with cracked bilges from a grounding. Unfortunately for the owners they are notorious for damage to the bilges when they ground. The glass at the turn of the hull to the keel is quite thin. In an effort to keep them light they are strong enough for the forces of sailing, but little more. I don't write this to be an alarmist, but you really need to check your boat out thoroughly. I hope I am wrong, but if you did ground, it is quite possible you have damage.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:12 pm

Were you motoring? Any chance the prop hit something and broke the stern tube/shaft log

Yes, I was heading into a short channel that leads to a marina under power at about 6 knots. I suppose the prop could have hit something, but I am not getting any water from the stuffing box or from where the strut is mounted. I think I would have known if it was the prop.

Hmmm, I wrote a reply to this thread, but it seems to have disappeared. J-Boats are the single largest contributor to the income of our fiberglass department. As a matter of fact we have one in our work bay right now with cracked bilges from a grounding. Unfortunately for the owners they are notorious for damage to the bilges when they ground. The glass at the turn of the hull to the keel is quite thin. In an effort to keep them light they are strong enough for the forces of sailing, but little more. I don't write this to be an alarmist, but you really need to check your boat out thoroughly. I hope I am wrong, but if you did ground, it is quite possible you have damage.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

OK, I'm back...If there is damage there, please expand on what you've seen. I'm hoping I can just retighten the keelbolts and refair the keel/hull seam. If that hope proves to be only wishful thinking though, I want to be sure I don't cut any corners executing the repair.

I'm hauling the boat out tomorrow morning at 6:30 and I'll certainly have the camera on hand (that's the good news - photos!). I recently started a new job and, rather than my usual ability to work on my own time, I now report to The Man. Therefore, it will likely be tomorrow evening before I can post an update.

Thanks.

Case · Post by **Case** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:55 am

Have you closely checked the aft part of the keel stub? From the inside? If there has been any fiberglass damage, it often occurs right there.

I hope that its only a rebedding & re-torque the keelbolt thing. Good luck tomorrow.

- Case

Post by **Tim** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:26 am

Grounding or hitting an obstruction in a boat like yours can often cause widespread damage to the hull laminate and any internal reinforcements on either side of the keel. You haven't said anything about noticing internal damage during your searches, so with luck you don't have this sort of widespread damage.

One particularly vulnerable area is at and around the after end where the keel and molded stub attach to the hull. This is an area where high point loads can occur when the bottom edge of the keel hits something immobile; it can basically force the keel back and up in this area. The same force can affect the forward bolts and seam as well. There is a lot of potential moment arm to be found on a deep fin keel like yours.

How extensive the damage is depends on how hard you hit, and what you hit, and where on the keel you hit it. If your hit wasn't that hard, you may have only damaged the seal between hull and keel, but it doesn't take a lot to cause significant damage when hitting bottom with a narrow fin attached to a lightweight hull.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:27 am

Hirilondë wrote: J-Boats are the single largest contributor to the income of our fiberglass department.

Well, yeah, but you're in an area with a high concentration of Jboats and a fair number of rocks as well!

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:47 am

I'm typing from my work computer, but I will upload photos this evening.

I pulled the boat out of the water and it didn't take long to determine that much of your advice was spot on. There is damage at the very aft end of the keel/hull joint. There is some separation there and a thin crack runs aft approximately 7 inches. When the boat was blocked we raised and lowered the weight off the keel and saw movement.

In addition, there is strike damage on the leading edge of the keel about 60% up as well as on the underside of the keel just to starboard of the centerline and about 2" aft of the leading edge.

The damage on the keel suggests to me that I hit debris rather than grounding. It is a series of scratch marks, a number of which go straight through the paint. I have some pretty good photos of this, which will clarify the description.

There are no rocks in this area at all. The lake bottom is a mixture of gumbo mud and sand, depending on where you are on the lake. There are some barely submerged wellheads in some places, but not near where I was at that time. I have no idea what I struck.

More this evening...

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:34 pm

Figment wrote:
Hirilondë wrote: J-Boats are the single largest contributor to the income of our fiberglass department.
Well, yeah, but you're in an area with a high concentration of Jboats and a fair number of rocks as well!

Yeah, you're right on both accounts. Between the 3 clumps on the north side of Fisher's Island and the almost continuous reef from Fisher's to Watch Hill we see the results of many groundings. And seeing as the first J-Boat ever built was right down the street, and Rod Johnstone has his 180 hauled and launched, etc by us there definitely is a loyalty to J-Boats in the area.

Jason,

I don't do the actual glass repairs, but I will gladly consult our head fiber glass person with details of your damage for ideas. He has literally repaired dozens of them. I hope your inspection shows little damage.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:47 pm

OK, here we go. I'll mostly let the photos speak for themselves and I'll update this weekend when we start grinding to determine the extent of the damage. We're also going to see how much tightening the keelbolts helps. The preliminary hope is that the bolts are loose, rather than the structure to which they're secured.

Here are some photos of the damage at the aft end of the keel:

Here are a couple images showing the scratches on the leading edge of the keel.

Here's a photo of the boat in the travel lift, simply because I like these sort of photos. Note the Alberg 30 in the background. That boat is pristine.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:11 pm

If the bolts are loose, they're loose because the substrate to which they're secured has been crushed or otherwise compromised, no?

Is the whole fin ballast, or is it ballast on a stub? (not that it matters, I'm just curious)

I can't get any sense of scale from the first two photos. How long are those cracks?

I suppose only a grinder will uncover the true damage. That sucks, man. Tough break. Friggin gators.

Case · Post by **Case** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:46 pm

To the best of my knowledge, all JBoats has ballast attached to the stub. This lowers the ballast for greater leverage - for greater stiffness. Another plus is that it gives these boats more of a bilge.

I hate to sound negative but I think fiberglass repairs are in order. I think the aft part of the stub is cracked and compromised.

On the upside, perhaps this is an opportunity to fair the keel for better performance... that aft part of the keel seems excessively squared off to me. It should be narrower than the forward leading edge - think airplane wing, thicker at front, tapering towards the back.

You know that many animals, including gators, like to give things a gnaw to see if its edible or not... so Figment's suggestion of a gator isn't too far fetched, as funny it is.

Good luck - hopefully the repairs won't be that big a deal...

- Case

Post by **Tim** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:23 am

Ouch. All that cracking at the aft end, no sign of cracks or separation at the foward end, and pretty minor impact damage at the point of contact...it doesn't take much to disrupt the delicate harmony of a lightweight laminate structure. Strong enough to support sailing forces doesn't always (often doesn't) translate to strong enough to withstand impacts.

The scratches and overall forceful impact--but lacking any severe damage at the actual point of impact--suggests maybe a sunken tree, or deadhead, or similar debris.

Your boat has a short molded stub to which the ballast is bolted. I don't see any signs of cracking at that joint (which should be roughly 6" down from the hull), so the keel bolts don't seem suspect. They should be checked as a matter of course after any grounding, though.

What happened is your keel got torqued backwards and pushed the aft end just slightly up at the time of impact, causing the cracked hull laminate; after impact, the keel returned to its natural position, but the damage was done. It doesn't take a ton of movement for this sort of damage to happen in those boats. It's a very common situation. But that doesn't make it any more fun for you.

The hull core ends about 6-12" from the centerline on either side, so that's an area of solid laminate where your damage occurred. Clearly, you've cracked all the way into the boat, so repairs will be fairly involved, though not difficult.

Good luck!

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:08 am

As Tim says, it doesn't seem that you compromised the keel attachment. The situation warrants more investigation to be sure though. If this is true then you can very likely do the job yourself should you be inclined. If the ballast to keel stub joint has been damaged then you would have to remove the keel, and that is a royal pain and requires the use of a travelift or some very tricky poppets and jacks use. We normally lift the boat off the keel which is left braced in a cradle. This way the keel can be worked on separately and it is oriented accurately for the return to the boat. J-Boat keels, as well as being bolted are bedded with 5200. So serious prying apart with wedges becomes part of the process.

It does appear in the pictures and from your descriptions (especially that it leaks) that grinding and reglassing from inside and out are called for. Our glass people make several hull/keel patterns from cardboard, doorskin etc. to assure that the original shape of the boat is restored. It might be tempting to try to improve on the shape, but it will change your boat, possibly your rating and possibly keep you from racing one-design.

Now that i see the minimal damage to the keel itself I can understand how you were confused as to what actually happened. It really doesn't take much to damage a modern racing machine. Good luck with your repairs.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:51 am

How's it going?

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:05 am

I'm sorry about the delayed response.

After grinding out the area, it appears the crack running aft is just in the fairing compound. I would not have thought the fairing was that thick, but we ground past the gelcoat and the crack was not in the laminate. The separation at the aft end of the keel was also opened up, reglassed and refaired.

The boatyard owner is of the impression the water was coming from a different source. This is based on the ease of the repair and the fact that when he first started working on it, no water emerged from the crack. I tend to disagree - but we'll see when the boat goes back in the water. The bilge held water in the sump below the level of the crack as much of it was pumped out. Additionally, when the boat was first hauled, that crack was weeping water - as you can see in the photos above.

I am a little concerned that the repair was too light. However, if this is simply a function of the design and we've repaired it well enough, then great.

If the damage reoccurs, then I'll have the whole area ground out and significantly reenforced with glasswork around the keel and boat bottom. That would have to happen at a different boatyard, in Mobile, AL, that is more talented working on racing hulls.

This sounds anti-climactic doesn't it? I suppose that's a good thing so long as the repair is adequate. We did lift the boat while I watched the keel and there was no movement.

Also, the keelbolts all took between .250" and .375" turns, with the aft ones taking the greater turn. However, the bolts are 8 or 10 inches below the crack, so I'm not sure there is a correlation there.

Beyond that, I had a blister repaired, a new zinc installed, and I'll be re-burnishing the bottom over the next few mornings.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:32 pm

I wrote:I am a little concerned that the repair was too light.

Make that real concerned.

Me and boatyards...there's more drama. I'll fill you all in shortly, but I couldn't resist the teaser.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:47 pm

Okay, I think it's "shortly" now!

Rachel
(On tenterhooks)

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:14 am

OK, fine - I'll spill the beans now, but it's a lot to type. I was going to wait until tomorrow. I hope you're happy, Rachel! :)

The boatyard owner, we'll call him G, has been emphatically, and inexplicably, insistent that the crack in the photos above could not possibly be the source of the water. He's basing this on his observation that no water was evident while he was grinding out the crack.

I have been almost as insistent that it was the source, as I checked every alternative.

I believe that G has let his (I think misguided) certainty cloud his judgement. He has had in his mind from the first day he ground into the crack that the leak was coming from somewhere else and the crack was superficial.

He completed his version of repairs quickly - which was basically grinding out the crack into a shallow groove with what is essentially a pneumatic Dremel. He then filled the area with thickened epoxy and pronounced the job was done.

I asked the boat to be lifted to see if there was movement. There was not but, when I inspected the boat the following day, I found that a crack reappeared on the port side of the keel. I had to point this out to G and questioned the effectiveness of the repair. He then returned to his insistence that this was merely a crack in the fairing compound in the area. He repaired this by putting 2 layers of lightweight cloth on the crack and soaking the inside of the cut pieces with epoxy and left the edges untouched to be ground off later. I wish I had a photo of that - it would be a great avatar.

He then noticed that, after a couple days of heavy rain, a couple inches of water accumulated in the bilge. He seems to have hung his hat on the fact that water enters the boat at the mast. I pointed out that the bilge will not fill up in 5 hours from rainwater dripping down the rig. I went on to point out that this was doubly true when it wasn't raining - which it wasn't when I was monitoring the rate of the water ingress.

He then suggested someone might have put a hose in my boat. I said that was unlikely as I haven't won that many races yet and that they were awfully persistent about it. I also told him he would have to come up with a better explanation than a juvenile prank.

I came up with a proposal. I let him finish painting the area and the suggested we put the boat in the water for a day. If the boat continued to leak, then we would find the source, fix it, and he would be right that there was only a crack in the fairing material around the keel. However, if the boat did not leak, then the epoxy was holding the water out and the repair was inadequate. The boat went into the water last Saturday and did not leak.

Well, G did not have an explanation for that but, incredibly, persisted in his belief that his repair was sound. I told him I was rejecting that and directed him to rehaul and reblock the boat until I and my insurance company figured out what to do. I also requested a written statement from him detailing the work done (pasted below).

To satisfy the insurance company, I am having a surveyor go out next week to render his opinion. I am glad that I have the photos above as the boat looks fine now. I need to bring it to a yard that will properly repair the damage, which means grinding a substantial bevel and properly reglassing. I have no idea what yard I'm going to use...they can't all be this bad (I hope). After the bottom job fiasco over the summer, I'm about done with boatyards. I'm certainly not about to cater to their lazy, slack way of going about business.

Here's G's letter. I'll post my response tomorrow as it's on my work computer.

G wrote: J 30 “Rambunctious”

Wednesday 11.21.07 at about 6:30 we picked up the boat and found 3 hair line cracks on the hull at the trailing edge of the keel. Also there was a mark on the paint on the leading edge about 2' down from the hull and a scrape on the leading edge on the bottom of the keel. When we set the boat on blocks and jack stands the hull flexed at the keel to hull joint.

We vacuumed the water out of the bilge and keel cavity. The next day there was a small amount of water in the keel area again. This water came from the mast area. We vacuumed again and we tightened the keel bolts. Each one turned about 1/4 turn.

I ground out the cracks on the hull and there was no further water. The cracks were in the fairing compound but were not in the glass laminate. I laid in some glass strands with epoxy and painted the repair.

We had rain on the weekend of 12.1.07 and found 4 inches or water in the bilge.

When I picked up the boat the fairing compound crack again. I ground away all of the fairing, down to the glass. When I got the laminate there were no cracks. I laid up and area about 3 inches long and 1.5 inches wide with 3 layers or cloth with epoxy, and painted and burnished the repair.

We put the boat inn the water on Saturday 12.8.07 and monitored it all day. There was no water at the end of the day.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:54 am

Wow. I would be so frustrated! And yes, photos of those couple of strips of glass, partially wetted out, would be priceless.

I'm barely suppressing a rant here, but yards that do bad work AND (probably) charge as though it were good work, drive me crazy. As do people like G, who don't have what one of my colleagues calls "the curious mind." I mean, I'd want someone who thought "Hmm, yes, let's consider the evidence, and come up with some reasonable theories" instead of just doggedly sticking to some idea that flies in the face of the evidence. Argh.

Oh wait, I'm suppressing the rant. <stops>

Jason, I'm sure glad that you're persisting with this, and I'm sorry you're having a run on bad boatyard experiences. I hope that you'll be back out making enemies on the race course before too long :-)

And thank you for typing it up to post here.

Rachel

Bluenose · Post by **Bluenose** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:10 am

Jason,

All I can say is wow! I am amazed and impressed with the civility that you convey this issue to the forum. I would be easy and understandable to vent and rage at length but you seem to maintain a bit of a sense of humor. Good on ya.

If there is any justice or karma in this world your next boatyard should rock.

Bill

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:10 am

Seems like fixing it yourself would be less work than chasing after this guy. It is apparent by his diagnosis and attitude in regards to repairing your boat he has less than a professional attitude and skills. Just in case you haven't thought of it: you might want to refrain from paying any money you supposedly owe him. Good luck with your confrontations.

G wrote:When I picked up the boat the fairing compound crack again.

All repairs on fin keels should be done with the keel hanging, not the boat sitting on its keel on blocking. The change in loads alone can cause cracks, and at best the new shape after the repair is wrong.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:47 am

Jason's Great Tour of Bayou Boatyards: 2007 Edition

Wow, Jason, it sure is unlucky that you have ended up in two such terrible boatyards out of two attempts. I hope you have more choices for the future (though it sounds like you're running out). Sorry to hear about your troubles. I particularly like G's idea that someone had put a hose in your boat and that was the source of the water. Would it be going too far out on a limb to say that G is an utter idiot?

It's distressing how often these sorts of bad boatyard stories crop up. But bad service isn't limited to boatyards these days; it just seems that a lot of businesspeople (in all business types) don't care enough to try and satisfy (much less actually please) their customers and are just looking for the payment at the end--never mind actually ever taking responsibility for their actions. It's disgusting, and I could go on and on. But I won't.

I agree with Dave: maybe you have those boatyards down there where you are not allowed to do your own work, in which case I guess your hands are tied, but otherwise, I'd seriously consider looking into this repair on your own. It sounds to me as if you're equipped with the knowledge enough to do the job with much greater care than the boatyard.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:20 am

Here's my response to G:

Hi G,

Thank you for taking the time to write the description of the work you've completed.

A couple of points: the cracks were more significant than a hairline fracture, particularly where they ran forward at the top of the keel stub. If you find it helpful, photos of the damage are available at http://www.rambunctiousracing.com/keel

Also, you mentioned several times in your description the presence of rainwater accumulation in the bilge. I'll remind you that the bilge filled up without any rain or other topside water source; in fact, on the Sunday before we hauled it out, I pumped the bilge dry and returned 5 hours later to find the bilge almost full again. It was not raining. We are all aware that any keel stepped mast will be source of rainwater ingress into the boat. The quantity of water that allows and the quantity we found consistently appearing were not comparable.

You mentioned this morning that, if the source of the water was indeed the keel, then the repair you have completed to this point would be insufficient. Every indication is that the leak was caused by the crack in the keel and that supports my emphatic assertion that this repair has been poorly executed to the point that the seaworthiness of the boat is highly compromised.

I'm not certain where this will go from here. It will depend largely on the steps Progressive Insurance chooses to take. I would hope that we'll hear from them today or tomorrow. In the meantime, please do not work on the boat.

Thanks again for the letter and I will let you know when I discuss this with the adjustor.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:42 am

Dave wrote:Seems like fixing it yourself would be less work than chasing after this guy. It is apparent by his diagnosis and attitude in regards to repairing your boat he has less than a professional attitude and skills

Tim wrote:I agree with Dave: maybe you have those boatyards down there where you are not allowed to do your own work, in which case I guess your hands are tied, but otherwise, I'd seriously consider looking into this repair on your own. It sounds to me as if you're equipped with the knowledge enough to do the job with much greater care than the boatyard.

It's unbelievably frustrating. I am looking into buying a trailer so I can do my own work (over the next year, not for this job). Yards aren't accomodating DIY-ers. I can lease the trailer to other J30 owners when I'm not using it to defray the costs (there's now a dozen active J/30's back on the lake). I might also purchase a trailer with another owner, who apparently has a lead on an affordable one.

Dave wrote:Just in case you haven't thought of it: you might want to refrain from paying any money you supposedly owe him. Good luck with your confrontations.

I haven't decided how I'll handle this yet. It will depend largely on Progressive. At the moment, their position is that they'll see the repair through - if I can get a surveyor to indicate it is improperly executed - but I may be on my own with this marina, as I'm the one that chose them.

It's true that I did choose them. They're the only yard within about 16 miles, and I thought I had a problem with the keel bolts. So, I had them haul it and, when I saw the damage, block it for the insurance adjustor as I knew it would be more cost effective to bring Progressive into this.

If it develops that I am responsible for the yard bill at Northshore plus another $1000 exposure for my deductible, then Northshore and I are going to have a problem. I'm not about to pay for this work. I would probably pay the cost of the inspection haul out as a compromise. However, if he presses for a moment for the full bill, then I'll got to the mat with it.

I have a feeling, though, that Progressive will ultimately keep my exposure to the $1000 deductible and take the path of least resistance. If that happens, I'll let them negotiate with this yard and I don't really care about the outcome. I'm not going to make a stand just on principle. This yard is the only that can service me in an emergency and, while we aren't friends, I don't want to make an enemy unnecessarily.

Tim wrote:Would it be going too far out on a limb to say that G is an utter idiot?

On the contrary, that would be a very conservative estimate.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:08 pm

A few $1000 deductibles and unsatisfactory yard bills (not to mention the frustration value) and a $6000 trailer suddenly looks like small money--all the more so if there's a realistic opportunity to be partners with or lease to other J/30 owners in the area.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:12 pm

I'd like to give the guy some benefit of doubt.
I'd like to say that he's damned either way, the repair will either be too light and the joint will flex and crack, or it will be very heavy and end the boat's one-design aspirations.

But that thing about the hose. I just can't get past that.

Saltwater rocks. Is that bilgewater from a deck leak or a hull leak? I dunno, taste it and find out.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:18 pm

A few $1000 deductibles and unsatisfactory yard bills (not to mention the frustration value) and a $6000 trailer suddenly looks like small money--all the more so if there's a realistic opportunity to be partners with or lease to other J/30 owners in the area.

I got a quote from Triad and $6000 buys a very well equipped tandem trailer that would be very road worthy. It would be in demand - as there's always a couple people interested in the J/30 Nationals as well as more boats coming to the area. New Orleans has always been a hot spot for J/30 One Design and there's a lot of new interest. It could also be used for bottom jobs/burnishing/foil templating. I could get a decent used trailer for half of that, which is another consideration, as I need to buy at least one new sail before next summer.

A minor challenge is storage, but if I make available to the fleet, then I'm sure I can find somewhere to keep it. I need to work out insurance/liability issues, but I will be getting a trailer in the next 12 months.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:09 pm

Self-sufficiency is the unwritten mantra of this board. I'm sure you'll never regret the investment.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:12 pm

Tim wrote:Self-sufficiency is the unwritten mantra of this board.

Not any more. ;)

David VanDenburgh · Post by **David VanDenburgh** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:39 pm

MikeD wrote:
Tim wrote:Self-sufficiency is the unwritten mantra of this board.
Not any more. ;)

Oh, I don't know how unwritten it is: "Nothing works on an old boat except its owner."

Where have I seen that one?

Sorry to read about your troubles, Jason. Sounds like you're handling it well. Good luck.

David

David · Post by **David** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:13 pm

Jason,

Sorry to read about your troubles. I have found the same incompetence and lack of interest toward sailboats in a number of yards in Florida. I think they find the issues of powerboats more profitable and perhaps the boat owners less likely to question the work processes or the yard bill. We need a few New England yards down here that understand and love sailboats!
My own guess about your yard is that the owner doesn't want to admit that the problem is anything more than cosmetic because he feels if it is indeed a sturtural issue and he repaired it (or attempted to) it would leave him liable for a future claim from you (or the next owner if you sell your boat) if there were ever a future problem involving the keel or structural support of the stub. Whatever his reasoning, it has you in the classic situation of a boatyard: no cash, no splash (the ultimate mechanic's lein).
I am most curious to hear how Progressive handles this claim.

Good luck!

David

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:23 pm

We need a few New England yards down here that understand and love sailboats!

Yeah, that is just what we need, a couple of northerners telling southerners what to do. As I recall, that didn't work out too well last time.

I don't put much stock in the northern variety either. I think it is more hit or miss.

-Britton

Post by **Tim** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:19 am

David wrote:I think they find the issues of powerboats more profitable and perhaps the boat owners less likely to question the work processes or the yard bill.

I hope you're not suggesting (gasp) that a business might put profits before service...I can't imagine that sort of thing ever happening! (groan)

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:58 pm

Things are moving forward.

As you know, I rejected the work completed at the current boatyard. It was clearly inadequate. However, the yard owner's insistence to the contrary caused Progressive to question the validity of my argument.

So, we hired a surveyor to inspect the work and render an opinion.

My version got a significant boost when I discovered on Saturday that the crack along the keel stub is starting to reappear on the starboard side.

The survey was late yesterday afternoon and it did not get very far. The surveyor wanted to grind away the bottom paint and then inspect the laminate. I said there is no way we're doing destructive testing in this yard, as they have convinced me of their incompetence. At that point the surveyor said he could not render an opinion.

However, I did not want this yard grinding away for two reasons. One, I feared damage to the templated keel. Also, I did not want to get stuck in this yard.

We got the Progressive rep on the phone and he finally agreed to let the work resume elsewhere, I think based largely on the reappearance of the crack.

He asked that I pay the full bill at this yard and move the boat to another yard of my choice. The money paid to the first yard will apply towards my deductible - he put that in writing at my request.

I must say that Progressive has been good to deal with - they've been cautious, but I understand that and, so far, they've given every indication that their priority is to make the boat whole.

So, I need to find an acceptable yard and, around here, it's slim pickins. So, that's my project today. If the weather is decent, I plan to move the boat on Saturday. At least I'll get a sailing fix.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:36 pm

Jason, it's nice to hear things are moving forward and that the insurance company is actually looking out for you. What a total drag.

But, the real unfortunate thing (well, other than the damage to your boat, your expenses and inconvenience) is that this Yahoo boatyard owner is getting paid for a horribly incompetent repair that should be fixed properly.

heartofgold · Post by **heartofgold** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:49 pm

When I was working in the yard following Hurricanes Ivan, Dennis and Katrina, we dealt with all sorts of insurance companies and representatives. Unquestionably, Progressive was the best one to be around. They were frequently on site and always asking questions, and though they stayed mostly in the office and out of the yard, they were clearly monitering progress and work.

On the same lines, my boss handled all the insurance claims for our customers, so he may have been the force behind their presence. Either way, they were always nearby when work was being done on one of "their" boats.

Post by **Tim** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:19 pm

Jason,

I was wondering how you've made out since the last update. I trust you've managed to get the boat re-repaired somewhere by now.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:12 am

Thanks for wondering Tim.

Things have progressed, but I still don't have the boat back. I'm hoping to get it by the end of February.

Picking up where I left off:

I had Northshore Marine relaunch the boat before Christmas. When I came to pick up the boat, the bill was way higher than estimated and included charges for things like the second haul and block. That was done to demonstrate that I was right about the source of the leak - a fact lost on the yard owner. I challenged the bill and both the owner and the woman that runs the office both laughed. My wife was in the car and she doesn't like it when I get set off, so I only lost it a little bit.

At the threat of refusing to launch the boat and assessing more charges (it was in the slings in the water) I paid with a credit card. I just received the written report from the surveyor on Monday so that, along with the bill from Northshore Marine and the estimate from the new yard, were forwarded to my credit card company and I reversed the charges. I have a sense of humor too. If the yard wants to fight it, I'll take it as far they want to.

I brought the boat to New Orleans in early January and the surveyor met us out there while we ground away the new bottom paint and the thickened epoxy (thickened with fairing compound, by the way). It revealed a crack deeper into the laminate than was ground by Northshore with moisture in the crack. We ground out a 12:1 bevel to prep for relaying new glass. The crack at the keel/hull joint reappeared during transport and that was also ground away. Some wet core was revealed where the cored section of the hull abuts the solid laminate at the sump; it comes to within a few inches. The core is not saturated or rotten, but it is wet. That phase of the repair is still being sorted out. Do we just let it dry or cut it out and replace it?

So, that's where we are. My advice is not to hit stuff with J-Boats or others that are similarly constructed. And to pick your boatyards carefully - I should be sailing right now. At least the insurance company is doing what an insurance company should and at least progress has been made. I've been doing some racing on other people's boats and I'm doing a short double-handed race on Saturday with another J/30 owner, so I'm still getting my fix. I prefer my own boat, though, and I can't wait to do some overnight weekend trips as soon as I get it back.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:24 am

Sorry to hear of your continuing troubles--I didn't mean to make you relive the whole unpleasantness! (Did you order that new trailer yet? :<) )

I sure hope things go better for you from here on out.

#218 wrote:It revealed a crack deeper into the laminate than was ground by Northshore with moisture in the crack.

Naturally, I'm shocked to find out that Northshore didn't adequately address this originally.

#218 wrote:Some wet core was revealed where the cored section of the hull abuts the solid laminate at the sump; it comes to within a few inches. The core is not saturated or rotten, but it is wet. That phase of the repair is still being sorted out. Do we just let it dry or cut it out and replace it?

That depends, but the key is that you need to ensure that your new material and repairs will bond properly to the core. Wet core can be dried out, but it's critical that it's completely dry before relaminating. If it seems truly sound, well adhered elsewhere, and dries out on its own, you can leave it if it seems to make more sense. A safer bet might be to just replace: once the area is opened up anyway, core replacement isn't much of a stretch.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:58 pm

Sorry to hear of your continuing troubles--I didn't mean to make you relive the whole unpleasantness! (Did you order that new trailer yet? :<) )

Not yet, though I did call a guy selling a J/30, a trailer, and a truck. I asked him to give me a call if the boat is sold without the trailer.

It's beyond me why everything has to be so hard - it's so much easier just to do it the right way. Even the surveyor missed the wet core - I had to point that out myself. I feel like I'm babysitting.

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:13 am

#218 wrote: My advice is not to hit stuff with J-Boats or others that are similarly constructed.

That is one resilient sense of humor. Bravo.

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:51 am

Speaking of humor, I asked Steve (who owns the new yard) when he thought the boat would be ready. He said, "Not too long now, maybe the weekend after Christmas if the weather cooperates."

"Christmas, Steve?"

"Oh, I meant Mardi Gras, maybe the weekend after Mardi Gras or the one after that."

We'll see...

Actually, the boat is coming along really nicely. The damaged area was ground out (to approx. 12:1), a little bit of the core was cut out and replaced, and the entire area has been reglassed. I went out there last week and there was a lot of fairing compound over the repair. We've had a lot of rain since then, so I doubt much was done, but I'm going to stop by today and check on progress.

I'm thinking I might really have it back by Christmas (fingers crossed).

LazyGuy · Post by **LazyGuy** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:43 am

Christmas Jason?

Hirilondë · Post by **Hirilondë** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:32 pm

#218 wrote:The damaged area was ground out (to approx. 12:1), a little bit of the core was cut out and replaced, and the entire area has been reglassed.

This is starting to sound like a real repair. Good luck getting back in the water!

Jason K · Post by **Jason K** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:15 pm

Christmas Jason?

That was no typo - this yard does not have a reputation for speed...

Actually, I got a call today to see if I could come by for an inspection. The new Baltoplate was sprayed on. It looks like...well, it looks like the bottom of a boat (sans cracks). Which is great. They really did a nice job fairing the transition of the keel and the hull. They did a nice job on the inside too - including gelcoating the repair. They said that gelcoat is better in a bilge because it is less permeable than paint.

All that remains is to burnish the Baltoplate, lift the boat to make sure there is no keel movement, and leave it in the slings for a bit to make sure no crack redevelops. They'll also monitor it in the water for leaks in case I was wrong about the source of the water intrusion (I wasn't, but I guess it doesn't hurt to be absolutely sure).

Plastic Classic Forum

Major Leak - Unknown Source

Major Leak - Unknown Source

Stressed keel

Re: Stressed keel