what do you think?!

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:07 am

Im going to be graduating soon as a naval architecht! 5 years of slog is paying off and im finally going to be getting involved fully in the small craft industry over here in the UK... and I have stumbled on a bit of luck...

You see I have been a major fan of these guys for a long time... http://www.spirityachts.com and now out of complete fluke and jammyness I have an interview with them on thursday! What do you think of the boats? How can I contain my excitement at the interview?!!

Sorry for gushing I had to tell someone that might appreciate these beauties!!

Post by **Tim** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:36 am

Yes, I'd say those are some pretty beautiful boats! Thanks for sharing.

Good luck on your interview!

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:02 am

mishnish wrote:What do you think of the boats? How can I contain my excitement at the interview?!!

Sweet. FWIW, I wouldn't try to contain your excitement. And back up your enthusiasm with all the information and knowledge you can gleen about the company. A knowledgable and enthusiastic employee is what any company looks for. Congratulations by the way, and good luck!

grampianman · Post by **grampianman** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:09 am

Good on ya, mate!

Yes, definitely swot up on any info you can glean about the company, founders, designers, etc. Absolutely, be excited, just not over-eager. As a matter of fact, if you can, practice the interview with family or friends. This would be a fantastic opportunity for you. I am actually teaching a college level course here in Florida about career and interviews, but am willing to give away the advice on this forum for nothing!

Cheers and again, good luck!

Ian

Post by **dasein668** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:04 am

Wow.

So once you're employed there, you are going to fly us all over for a tour, right? ;-D

Best of luck in the interview!

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:50 am

Cheers guys!

Its great having the support and encouragement of the boat people ;-) Ill let you know how it goes. I certainally dont have all my eggs in one basket with this company, but it is certainally on the top of the favourites list!

As for the interview, rest assured that I have got the research well under control! The job likely entails getting the vessels to conform to a classification society rule, so I spoke to my Professor and he put me in touch with contacts from all the appropriate classification societies that these yachts might fit into, so I have had a good chat with those guys. I done the numbers on all my structures work to date and just refreshed my head on that, re-read a load of my NA books etc.... spoke to my cuz who is a HR manager for a company, she gave me the lowdown on interviews and what to expect etc... Also I have been telling myself just to chill out and relax, go for it and not be dissapointed if I get knocked back... to be myself really...

But to work with such a quality product in a small company and nice little place in the country side with a dinghy club nearby for my laser... theres something in that!

Figment · Post by **Figment** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:03 pm

Good on ya!

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:21 am

Operation Ipswich was a resounding success!!

Spirit are now taking on larger and larger projects and so they are going to need an additional naval architecht, so Im now just waiting for a definite response pending on wether or not a large project goes ahead! I met the builders and designers and they are all really nice people and the work ethic suits me... basically id be responsible for my full day there progressing under my own steam and using my initiative to improve and get the boats certified and so on! So much better than having to sit in a suit in an office all day behind a CAD station! I got the full tour! I also managed to snap a few sneaky photos of a 70 footer!

http://www.mishnish.net/images/DSC02832.jpg
http://www.mishnish.net/images/DSC02833.jpg
http://www.mishnish.net/images/DSC02834.jpg

I also spent a day looking round the area and i really like it! plenty of nice houses, lots to do and most importantly, a major laser presence!! im sorted!

Post by **dasein668** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:38 am

Nice! My fingers are crossed for final approval!

Post by **Tim** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:57 am

Wow, those boats really are quite something! Hope it works out for you!

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:50 pm

I have had a major thing for them ever since I first wanted to be a naval architect, and that was the first time I had seen one face to face! I was almost speechless when they offered to show me around... they are really something. To say that 70 totally eclipsed everything else in that marina is understatement of the highest order! What do you think Tim? I think construction in cold moulded speed strip would be right up your street! Perhaps something daysailorish round the 20 - 24ft mark? carbon rig? high performance foils? cant be many people round your parts building such a specialised and desireable floater? Could be just the job for having a sexy and immediately identifiable product coming out of barn mk2... Ill even design it for ya!

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:35 pm

Why not try to design a boat much like the Triton but with a modern keel and rudder configuaration. That would be kinda neat - well at least I think so.

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:45 pm

exactly! a "spirit of tradition" type vessel... similar lines to triton but with bang uptodate appendages and rig. can still look classic as spirit has shown.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:08 am

Count me in - I will help design the sails.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:46 am

The "spirit of tradition" type boat is probably one of the faster-growing segments, at least at the high end of the market. The numerous new "daysailers", like the Morris, Hinckley, Frendship 40, etc. are all in this general vein, with traditional appearance coupled with modern construction and underbodies. There's also the W-Class (46 and 76), and others that I am certainly forgetting, or that I don't even know about.

I agree that a smallish version of this sort of boat, with all the current high-tech goodies like carbon rig and modern underbody, might be a fun project. The problem is whether one could build such a boat and make any money. The big spenders out there are more apt to buy one of the larger versions, such as those above; people interested in 24-footers often have much more severe restrictions on their budget. The labor costs to build a high-quality and well-detailed boat in this genre would be high, and would necessitate a pretty high selling price, I imagine.

Marketing isn't my thing. Someone else can feel out the market, but I'll build the boat if it's viable!

xroyal · Post by **xroyal** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:27 am

mishnish, that 70 sent shivers thru my timbers. Made me think of the '30s 63' S&S I got to sail on.

I agree, enthusiasm counts in an interview. While showing proper respect, I was interviewing/questioning my interviewers closely as well. After all, it's your future at stake. I looked at each interview as a learning experience. I enjoyed most of them.

It would be tough to pack all those tech updates in a smaller boat at an affordable price. The Alerion 28 really grabs me, but not the 80k-90K price. Charming, but a very limited market.

I'm an older salt now, and envy your new opportunities. Best of luck!

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:09 pm

Tim,

You are spot on with your observations on the "spirit of traditon" sailboats that have come onto to the scene as of late. Interstingly enouph and again in line with your views, one of the first boats to fill this niche was the TPI Alerion Express 28. This boat hit the maket about 15 years ago at a whopping $80,000.00 Interestingly again - TPI has its roots in with the original Pearson Yachts gang - a modern Triton if you will. Incidently the rig on a Alerion is almost the same size as that of the Triton.

ALERION EXPRESS 28 30.0 9.8 33.0 12.5

PEARSON 28.0 TRITON frac rig 30.3 9.8 33.0 13.0

Its funny how good ideas never go bad. I have known many Alerion owners who loved the boat however one issue was the size of the cabin.
Trions have much more room down below.

Good Sailing

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:02 pm

jollyboat wrote:however one issue was the size of the cabin.
Trions have much more room down below.

Well, I wouldn't really expect much room below in a daysailor. The Triton was designed as a small coastal cruiser, not a daysailor, so I would expect it to have more space. Probably not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Closer would be Tim's daysailor, which 'taint exactly spacious below. But again, it's a daysailor, not a cruiser.

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:36 pm

dasein668,

Agreed, on the space issue but as far as throw back design to the classics in production the Alerion Express 28 was the first that I know of to spring up to fullfill the "niche'. Sailboat racing and design took another direction in the late late sixties and through the 80's and much of the design characteristics [even in boats that really were not going to be raced outside of the "beer cans"] reflected this as much. I remember when my own sense of likes and dislikes of boat esthetics was developing and looking at so many of the fiberglass boats that truelly earned the term - bleach bottles - there seemed to be seas of them in every harbor and then my eye would catch a boat with real lines - ah - like a glass of cool water on hot day. But now I am getting a little off topic. To trim back in I do feel that a modern version of the Triton would be liked by todays consumer market. Even if new moulds were constructed of our own Tritons I feel that it would be a winner.

Post by **dasein668** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:48 pm

Agreed. I was just thinking it wasn't fair to compare a cruiser to a daysailor and then complain about the lack of space, that's all. Not that you were doing the complaining! ;-D

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:12 pm

Tim - Totally agree...

The big spenders out there are more apt to buy one of the larger versions, such as those above; people interested in 24-footers often have much more severe restrictions on their budget. The labor costs to build a high-quality and well-detailed boat in this genre would be high, and would necessitate a pretty high selling price, I imagine.

Absolutely... infact, the guys at Spirit say they want to move towards the big stuff and do less of the small stuff as they find it hard to make money on the smaller vessels, and indeed even the small ones have an extraordinary price tag. The return on building and selling the larger vessels is a lot higher in general I think. Having said that, they employ 16 highly skilled craftsmen in the shop. If a 20 - 24 ft boat were to be economically viable a good bit of marketing and economics would have to be dealt with, and would be a bit of a leap of faith for any small buisness! Having said that, the first of any new Spirit yacht was built specutively (SP?) and was sold in due course, which led to further buisness. I suppose the boat might be its own marketing tool?!

Food for thought... do you see the potential for boat construction in the future? What would be your material of choice?

jollyboat · Post by **jollyboat** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:27 pm

The Allerion group has been at it several times since the introduction of the 29 and now have a 38 foot version of what is basically a daysailor. Johnston Yachts has a beauty as well and so does Morris - all very sexy craft. I am sure that the accomodations of 38 foot "daysailor" are up to par albeit this is all packaged at a price that is well beyond my budget. There are boats being built, however, that have an attractive price tag. There is a new 'box' design sport boat, named the Flying Tiger, designed by Bill Stevens that will be a complete 34' boat with sails(designed and built by our firm :) and a cradle/trailer that will cost about $45,000 landed. That is not bad - this boat will have carbon spars as well.
So we have the size - now we just need the shape - that is not really a problem either since we now know that a boat this size can built and sold with a profit for that amount of money. This boat is being constructed of solid fiberglass as well - no core which I prefer.

Post by **Tim** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:00 pm

jollyboat wrote:There is a new 'box' design sport boat, named the Flying Tiger, designed by Bill Stevens that will be a complete 34' boat with sails(designed and built by our firm :) and a cradle/trailer that will cost about $45,000 landed.

That's a bargain price, and the boat will necessarily reflect the price in terms of its detailing (or lack thereof). I'm not knocking the boat at all--just pointing out how different it would be to build a highly detailed and finished boat (replete with woodwork, handwork, etc).

A production builder creating an empty-shell sort of prefabricated baot like a sport boat can certainly run efficiencies of scale and tooling, and the labor costs would be far lower as a result--coupled with the lack of labor required for all that woodwork and other fine detailing that make a "spirit of tradition" boat what she is. And of course a true production builder relies on the overall production run to pay for many of the tooling and setup costs. A small local builder, of course, cannot rely on this.

The reason fine boats cost what they do is related directly to the labor required for the quality installation of systems, woodwork, finishing, etc. Boats with lower price tags must necessarily contain less building labor, fewer materials, and, in many cases in today's production craft, lower overall build quality. This is all fine, but doesn't really fit in with the "spirit of tradition", which, to me, dictates high level of quality and finish.

The daysailor project taught me more about this than anything else ever could have. One cannot discount the labor required for a boat of this nature. If I'd had to hire out the labor, or truly pay myself for my time, I would have had to charge far more than I did for the boat. I made a profit, if I discount my labor; that is, the boat sold for more than she cost to build, but I didn't get paid for the thousands of hours of labor. I couldn't possibly have charged a high-enough price to reflect that, not if I expected to sell the boat. (2000 hours at even a bargain-basement labor charge of $20/hour is still $40,000 that I might have had to add on to the price I charged...simply not feasible. And the boat probably required more than 2000 hours, too, but this works as an illustration.)

Building a 24-26-footer of similar concept and quality, and truly making enough money at it to not only support a minimum of one person, as well as overhead, marketing costs, and other factors, would, I am afraid, force the boat to be priced at a level that would prohibit the average buyer from partaking. That doesn't mean that building a one-off from scratch from time to time isn't, on some level, financially feasible. But as soon as you turn the boat into a "production" possibility, something has to give in order to make the product reachable to a wider potential audience--unless, of course, market research shows an adequate customer base willing and able to pay the price required.

So the only way to properly build a "spirit of tradition" boat that truly meets the requirements inherent in that description would be to build them on a semi-custom or custom basis, rather than a true production boat. This may be feasible, if the end result justifies the price involved. High-end boats like this definitely do act as a sort of "calling card", as they are, or should be, representative of the work that the company or indiividual selling the boat perform. So in this manner, it's worth building such craft, at least sporadically, to help draw in customers for other, perhaps more mundane, work.

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:55 am

Its big decision time for me folks....

I said i didnt have all my eggs in one basket... very true. My passion is yachts, and becoming a yacht designer/architecht is the long term plan, but I recently had an interview with our Lifeboat charity, the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) - http://www.rnli.co.uk/... In my opinion they make some of the most technically advanced and highly engineered vessels in the world.

The interview with the head of engineering went really well, and afterwards I found out that out of 23 people who applied for the Naval Architecht position, I was shortlisted to 6, and it seems that Im the one they offered it to! Lucky me I guess!

Heres my dilemma... They want a response within the week but id much rather work for spirit... time to phone spirit and be totally honest with them i think...

What would you do? I know its hardly a terrible position to be in but I have a funny feeling that if I go to the RNLI ill end up writing technical manuals for valves or other such trappings of a highly complicated craft instead of getting the whole gamult of naval architechture at spirit where i would be one of three architechts...

poor me huh?!

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:31 am

What would you do?

Get an offer from spriit and then follow my heart.

Post by **Tim** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:14 am

I'm no job interview expert (that's why I work for myself..hehe), but I'd say you have just the right idea there. You want to work for Spirit...so they ought to know that. You have nothing to lose by being enthusiastic and straightforward and asking them whether then can tell you yay or nay.

If not, it sounds like you have a good fallback position that would probably be very instructive for a few years, after which you could probably be ready to make a move more in your chosen direction.

I imagine the job search books written by "experts" would advise you to never reveal your position in a situation like this--perish the thought. But I think that being honest and forthright and telling Spirit that you have another offer, and need a decision from them since you'd prefer working there, is perfectly valid and might just get you the result you want. And if they can't make a decision within the time frame with which you're faced, then your direction seems clear.

Good luck! Here's hoping it goes your way.

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:07 am

well the job is done...

I called spirit and was very straightforward with them. It seems that they are no further forward with the 130 footer project and cant say for definite if it is now, 6 months or a year that they will know if they get it, and thats what my employment there hinges on. I jokingly explained that im in a bit of a conundrum and they had a good laugh about it with me, so they understand my position and they were are fair and reasonableabout the whole thing, which is nice. they told me to keep in contact with them and let them know my progress as the RNLI job is only for a one year internship.

I can use the RNLI to get some serious engineering team experience behind me which will allow me to exert some more leverage, and the plan for me is to get into the yachting scene down in Poole where the RNLI is based, make some contacts and keep up my yacht design portfolio. I also want to do my professional skippers examination and get MCA coding and approval - (one thing that constantly annoys me about my course is the people who have never been on boats or ships and have no real interest in them... bizzare)

Phew... brain fart over. it seems to be working overtime lately as exams come up and project deadlines loom.

Last thought for the day....
I never thought before going to university that I would develop my own potential to this level. Looking ahead there are more options open to me than I could ever dream of without the conditioning that 5 years of education has provided. get your kids into the courses they have dreamed of and encourage them and support them in every way you possibly can!!! Its the biggest favour you will ever do them. I cant possibly imagine having been able to do what I have done without the support and encouragement of my family here!

xroyal · Post by **xroyal** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:21 pm

Good for you! At least you (and Spirit) know where you stand. You'll sleep better for it.

In the days when I finished college most employees and employers were thinking about lifetime employment. I worked like a slave, and dis-abused myself of that philosophy fast. I was a turncoat, and made job changes every 3-5 years if the right opportunity presented itself....a new learning opportunity (never just for money). I also punctuated the jobs with periods (1-5 years) of self employment, remodling old houses for fun and nice profits. The toughest boss I had was myself!

You've got the world by the tail. Enjoy!

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:50 am

Tim wrote:So the only way to properly build a "spirit of tradition" boat that truly meets the requirements inherent in that description would be to build them on a semi-custom or custom basis, rather than a true production boat.

Tim, you have probably have heard of these, which one of my students just told me about a few weeks ago. I believe this a pretty good example of what you are saying. It looks like they are being sold into a captive market of relatively affluent individuals as sort of a club thing.

Dark Harbour 20

There's information
here, and a couple of nice .pdf files to download.

They're selling them for about 50k basically equipped, and they are being built by Shaw Yacht of Thomaston, Maine.

http://www.rockportmarine.com/pages/dahkhahbah.html
http://www.boats.com/content/default_de ... ntid=17679

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:13 am

the S and S brochure on the Dark harbor 20 keeps talking about reasonable cost yet never mentions the cost.....that is a bad sign!

I'll bet reasonable is compared to Mercedes E500's and Beech Bonanzas and houses along the waterfront in newport.....

"Say Kitty...that is a beeoootiful yacht....and only $400,000...lets get two!!"

My philosphy was that you lust after what you couldn't have when you were 16 (NOT HER!!!).

So what did you lust after when you were 16?

Mini Cooper

Cobras

BMW R90s

Bermuda 40's

Ducati 900ss

So I ended up with an old alberg 35 that is 80% of a hinckley pilot at 20% of the price, an old BMW R80, No cobra in the works...but I do own the spiritual successor to the BMW 2002 a 1991 318is 4 cylinder and am seriously thinking about a modern mini...waiting to see the next version first though.

I wonder if the retro yacht revolution will affect the price of the true classics.

Is it about modern performance in an old look? All the motorcycles above are clearly that way. Few mass market modern riders would put up with the carbs on the old bikes, the short maintenance schedules and ancient technology.

Are the modern boats all about fin keels, spade rudders, and carbon fiber all while appearing to be CCA designs from the late 50's early 60's?

Or would an inexpensively bought, thoroughly upgrade "classic" make a viable business? Tim probably has a better handle on that then anyone.

It certainly can't hurt the value of the old classics, but may price some people out of the market eventually....not quite on the cobra scale hopefully!!!

So...what did you lust after when you were 16.....

Post by **Tim** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:13 pm

When I was 16, I was into racing and was always following the SORC, admiral's cup, and other big-time IOR regattas. I was therefore pining after the hottest IOR racing boats of the day--boats like Kialoa IV, Retaliation, Aries, and the like. I can't begin to remember all the ones that I liked.

People can be dorks at age 16. I thought that a boat had to be bristling with winches (and preferably coffee grinders), have triple spreaders, a 60" wheel, flush deck, long reverse transom, and cool graphics to be worth my attention. Roller furling? That was for those lame cruisers.

Back then, I was all about boats. Some things never change. But other things obviously do.

A30_John · Post by **A30_John** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:35 pm

Few mass market modern riders would put up with the carbs on the old bikes, the short maintenance schedules and ancient technology.

Unless you're talking about noise suppression technology.

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Mon May 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Always been a massive fan of Wally yachts and the thought of owning one makes me salivate! Dark Shadow pulled into a bay in greece while I was working as a flotilla leader there last summer so I trucked it over in my dinghy and started chatting with a guy onboard about the beautiful italian design as the thing towered above me. The thing made me smile like a goon all day and he was very friendly, and to be frank, I think he was just amazed that some daft kid would come up to his boat and chat about its designer with him!!!

If anyone is "trolling for boat porn" this is surely the Penthouse of all sites!

http://www.wally.com

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Sat May 27, 2006 8:12 am

Well the job is well and truly done now! I recently signed the contract for working for the RNLI and I even got my expenses back! I start there in october and have the rest of the summer to mess around on boats in greece. I have my last exam next week and theres only a presentation to give and some minor house keeping to do and I will finally be a graduate naval architecht.

I think the RNLI could be compared to your NMLBS (national motor lifeboat school?) but its a charity and seems to have more money than it knows what to do with! Heres a little photo introduction of some bits i find interesting:

This is a Severn class all weather life boat and is the current boat stationed in many locations all around the uk coast. they are all self righting from a complete roll over in about 6 seconds. 25 or so knots and very loud when they go past!

This is a prototype of the Tamar class which is slip launched. This was taken a year ago and the Tamar is now in full production. This boat is slightly special as it is a bit like the eurofighter or F22 raptor in that it has a full "glass cockpit" and everything happens through the computer with the track ball on the end of your chair!

the big rack that makes everything happen on the Taymar. Everything is triple redundant, including the power supply.

The infamous capsize switch! When a lifeboat rolls, this dohickey senses it, throttles back the engines and closes the external air intakes. the engines breathe inside air for a few moments while the boat comes upright at which point the switch releases the engines back to helm control and opens the air intakes for the helm to go again (assuming he was strapped in!!!)

And the older lifeboat - the Arran class which is being replaced by the Severn. slower and larger.

Dont worry people, after this appointment I will be doing ny best to remain true to the prime directive of doing yachts... I have made elaborate plans and its just a matter of following through now. Hope you found the RNLI stuff interesting, and sorry it couldnt have been sexy pics of the new Spirits! ;-)

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Sat May 27, 2006 11:24 am

CONGRATS on the job...that will be great.

Those life boats are TANKS! Hate to roll one, but what an experience!

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Sat May 27, 2006 6:11 pm

Tank is right! The hull laminate is some 300mm thick!! Very very indestructable and unsinkable, and stable almost to a fault... they are so stable that the motion is generally described as "fierce" with crews having to be strapped into a heavily dampened chair for transit to the scene of the call, but the stability is required for the self righting capability.

I was looking at the NMLBS website and it has some incredible videos that show off what these vessels are capable of.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/nmlbs/index.html

Very impressive!! Almost makes me want to enrol for a few courses. I have driven a rib in small surf before and that was fun, but this genuinely takes the biscuit!

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:16 pm

MISHNISH!!

You met bond yet?

http://www.spirityachts.com/sy-news.htm

mishnish · Post by **mishnish** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:44 am

haha!!! I wish!

Im now working at the RNLI... I was kicking myself when I saw the spirit 54 in a trailer for the bond film! I went to see the film on sunday and I have to say its the best bond film yet! the boat was fantastic too.... I sent spirit an email congratulating them on getting their boat in... but as i say im kicking myself... i was nearly there!!!!

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:50 am

Forgot you'd gone on to Lifeboats.

Just recognized the amazing woodwork and knew it had to be a spirit.

Truth be told...Lifeboats, as unglamorous as they may seem, are probably a far better choice for career path than mega yachts for the richie-riches of the world.

Plastic Classic Forum

what do you think?!

what do you think?!

Re: what do you think?!

Good luck and congrats on your (near) graduating!

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