Butyl tape source

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BS Smith
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Butyl tape source

Post by BS Smith »

I'm preparing to put new plates in NE38 #82's large ports and plan to use butyl tape. Need 1/16-1/4 and my preferred product is:
  • CRL 1/16" x 1/4" Aluminum Tremco 440-II Architectural Tape
but it's proving quite elusive. Have been unable to find it online in less than case quantity. (One supplier, DK Hardware, had single roll pricing, but after ordering it turned out their website was in error.) Local glass shops take turns referring me from auto to building glass firms. Helpful ones offer to order, only to report they too can order only case lots. The last building glass shop contacted said his industry no longer uses it.

Decided to give up on aluminum/gray, but haven't had much better luck. Vintagetrailersupply has the item in black listed (and knowingly notes: 'Its small dimensions make it very hard to find in local stores"), but after clicking add-to-cart, was informed "out of stock."

I should be able to order a roll in black from Hi-Tech Glazing Supplies, but it seems crazy (and perhaps time-lengthy) to import what I assume is a US-made product from Canada back to the US.

Anyone with a better idea--or a roll to sell?

Thanks,

Brian
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Brian,

Check out my posts and pics on this subject, under 'removing silicone sealant'. I don't (now) think that Butyl was the original sealant, although LeComte used it elsewhere. Certainly silicone was not, either. I think Q originally had gasketing only with no sealant.

Polysulfide tape is, I think, a usual automotive as well as architectural stuff these days and should be available.

D
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Ceasar Choppy »

Brian,

Try McMaster Carr. Specifically item 1049A31. Sta-soft glazing rope. Color is grey. This is close to what you are looking for. I used it for my windows and am very happy with it. Good luck!
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Zach »

Any RV/travel trailer shop will have rolls of butyl laying around in grey.

Napa and auto parts stores carry black, in varying diameter round lengths for bedding in automotive windows. Takes some wax paper and a rolling pin to make the flat stuff though. Grin.

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Post by BS Smith »

Thanks for the responses.

Just wanted you to know that given the alternatives, decided to order 1/16 x 1/4 in black from hitechglazing.com.

They indicated 10-13 business days and CAD7.20 for shipping. This morning I was thinking “how many days did they say?” and of course the package arrived in the afternoon’s mail. Hadn’t noticed CAD is now close to parity with USD; the total bill: USD11.91.

And one clarification—the invoice indicated “MADE IN CANADA”!

How does the tape work? Dunno, give me a couple weeks/months. Still waiting for a sheet of Lexan MR10 ordered locally (and I avoided polysulfide tape because of posts here indicating its incompatibility with polycarbonate; expect to use polysulfide to bed the aluminum port frames to cabin trunk).

Small (world) aside: many know Lexan as a GE product. GE invented Lexan, but Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC) bought GE Plastics, including Lexan, in 2007. Indeed, my local supplier is called “Sabic Polymershapes.” The small world aspect is that in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s I was doing financial projections for SABIC’s then proposed petrochemical and steel plants. So I’ll take special pleasure in having their panes in my ports. Once I finally get the MR10…

Of course I also have to paint the frames. So far they’ve been sandblasted (nice!) and primed. Figure I’ll topcoat with the same Alexseal to be used for cabin trunk and deck, after repriming with what’s LPU correct.

Lastly a question for NE38 owners, past and present. Pics of my port frames have been posted previously (gulp, almost a year ago...), e.g.:

http://www.plasticclassicforum.com/view ... deadlights

It’s been said these frames look nothing like what later NE38’s have (#82 is vintage ’62). This is a head-scratcher for me, as I don’t really understand (and have never seen) what later boats have. It seems the small port trim ring for later boats is wood, while #82’s is aluminum. Correct? Also, for the small ports, do later boats not have the aluminum frame (spigot) that mounts through the trunk from inside out—just a trim ring sealing the plate to a fiberglass port-in-trunk? And the large ports also don’t have a frame and a trim ring that mounts from outboard onto the pane and frame? It’s difficult for me to believe #82’s ports are non-original, as I’d think it unlikely the frames would have been specially cast for a previous rehab and I doubt they’re someone else’s production item. But after almost 50 years, who knows?

Regards,

BS (too dang many Brians/Bryans on this site—and elsewhere!)
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

Okay, a little late, but for others who may read this thread...

It does seem to be getting a bit hard to find butyl tape. I tried all the usual suspects locally (glass shops, RV places, heating shops, "good" hardware stores) and repeatedly heard, "Oh, we used to have that." And yes, online many places only sell it by the case (especially the Tremco, which I was also looking for).

I did find that a number of RV places call it "tacky tape." Here is one that sells it by the roll:

http://www.rvwholesalers.com/catalog/ta ... -0865.html

Rachel
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Quetzalsailor »

Brian,

Check out my posts and pics on 'Removing Silicone Sealant' and LeComte Port Removal". You'll find that I did three of the small 'deadlites', fixed ports. To reiterate: all 10 ports look the same from outside, the gel-coated fiberglass rolls inward to the glass. Like a bullnose corner on some old house plaster (more common in Florida). Like a quarter round in wood, but with no joint between the exterior and the round. It must have been a pain to pop these deck layups out of the mould! Once the deck was out of the mould, the area surrounding the inward-turned fiberglass port opening was filled, sloppily, with a fairly low density filler of glass fibers and polyester - a lower density than an ordinary layup - it looks like pats of mat and resin, but does not look resin starved. Where it was easy, cored and flattish, strips of plywood were screwed to the inner lamina. Where it was more difficult, curved, and not cored, areas of the inside of the house are built out to level with a filler made of cork granules and polyester. The filler around the ports was ground sort of flat to receive a foam rubber gasket, the glass and the liner panel. Plywood trim rings for the small ports, and segmented plywood trim sections at the large ports, were screwed into the filler to retain the port and the panel. Screws were bunged.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by BS Smith »

Rachel,

Good catch! At first I was going to rant about the silliness of RV people making up names that frustrate online searching, but then learned Tacky Tape actually is the registered trademark for Schnee Morehead’s butyl tape. Haven’t been able to confirm quickly whether it’s available in my preferred size (SM provides a wealth of tech specs, but basic dimensions only selectively). In any event, certainly a route for future searchers.

Doug,

Thanks. Got it. (With repeated application at times even the densest materials can be penetrated…)


Now back outside for more varnish stripping in the sun!

BS
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Skipper599 »

Question: What are your thoughts out there about using Butyl below the waterline? eg: Thru-hulls?
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

Skipper599 wrote:Question: What are your thoughts out there about using Butyl below the waterline? eg: Thru-hulls?
I highly recommend taking the time to read through this post over at Sailnet.

My understanding is butyl is not the best choice for below the waterline. It depends on what you're sealing, though.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

By the way, I had no problem finding butyl tape at a local RV dealer's parts department. About 7-8 bucks per 50-foot roll. I bought two rolls and got a few bucks change from my twenty. Not too shabby!

I just used it for the first time yesterday, to re-bed a slightly leaky hatch above the dinette in my boat.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

Good to hear you found it. I had a project calling for butyl tape last spring, and I wanted to find some locally (had a good day for the project and didn't want to wait for mail order). Out of about ten camping/RV service places, I found a couple that "had some," but it turned out to be putty tape (looks like butyl but is not actual butyl) and no butyl tape. Then I tried "good" hardware stores, roofing stores, and glass stores. Many of them said they used to have it but no longer did. Neither did I find butyl caulk in tubes (but... no Ace Hardware within striking distance).

Eventually I just did something else that day and ordered it online. But it was one of those unsatisfying orders wherein you are getting something that is $4.99 and then have to pay shipping for just that one thing (not that they shouldn't charge shipping but just that most times when I order something I can combine it so I at least get more stuff). Hmph. I wish McMaster-Carr carried it - I'm always surprised they don't.

What camper shop did you find it at?

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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

Yeah, I found it online at a couple places, for about $8 per roll - and then something like $20 in shipping charges.

I found it at this place, just northeast of Richmond, VA, which is pretty much right on the way from my house to the boatyard: http://www.cheekandshockley.com/
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

I can't seem to find any butyl tape sources locally here in SF Bay Area. I have called at least a dozen window shops, RV supply stores, auto glass shops, hardware stores, etc... The only thing that comes close to it is 1/4" round butyl tape from a auto glass shop. I am rebedding my Triton dead lights (polycarbonate) in bronze frames. Does it matter if the butyl tape is flat or round? I don't think so but want to be sure. I suppose I can always order online but like others have expressed here it's very unsatisfying to pay more for shipping than the product itself.

BTW, what's the difference between glazing tape and butyl tape? Thanks!
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

You could buy some from the man himself.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

Bill T.
Richmond, VA

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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

Another one.

You might have to buy some on line. Let Google be your friend. And don't forget to search eBay.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

Thanks Bill, I will check them out.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Maine Sail »

Triton106 wrote:
BTW, what's the difference between glazing tape and butyl tape? Thanks!
There are vast differences in butyl tape. Some you buy on the net is not even butyl at all but rather a water soluble putty tape. I have had three or four customer send me a rolls they bought advertised as "butyl" that melted in water. I have no idea what it is but it is not butyl. It rips instead of stretches and melts in water..not good.

One guy even emailed me a video which I will try and find.

If you buy a roll that is not from me at least buy a genuine glazing butyl. It has to meet some minimum glazing industry standards and the RV or roofing stuff does not. While not the same as the stuff the boat builders used to use it will be far better than the cheap RV tapes or roofing tapes. Do not buy an RV butyl it is juntk and will continue to "bleed". These are high solvent tapes made to be nothing but messy gummy stuff for jamming in roof cracks on RV's. You really can't buy this stuff based on price alone.

I buy direct from the manufacturer in multi-pallet skids and pay more for the good stuff than re-sellers four times removed from the manufacturer are selling the cheap stuff for.

I spent six months evaluating butyl tape before I found one that was suitable and comparable to the older stuff. With EPA regs changing all the time this was difficult. Not too wet or solventy, enough durometer/harness and very, very stretchy & flexible. When I found it the only problem was that it was not made in gray, only black. Black SUCKS, trust me.... After many phone calls, discussions & meetings they agreed to extrude the tape I wanted in gray just for me.

While not "cheap" by $$ standards @15.85 per roll, it is also not a "cheap" tape, as in crappy. Someone else above posted a link to my sites butyl ordering page, so I won't re-post. I just don't want people to buy something and get scammed.

Here's a link to the instructions I wrote on how to bed deck hardware with butyl tape:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

Maine Sail wrote:Do not buy an RV butyl it is juntk and will continue to "bleed". These are high solvent tapes made to be nothing but messy gummy stuff for jamming in roof cracks on RV's. You really can't buy this stuff based on price alone.
Can you elaborate on the "bleeding"? I've used grey butyl tape that I bought from an RV-type source and it seemed stretchy and sort of.... not sure how to describe it, but "clean" as opposed to messy or gummy. Maybe I would say slightly rubbery/silly-puttyish. I can't say how it will look after twenty years, but some that I used about a year ago on a temporary installation seemed "same as new" this year when I went back to make it "un-temporary."

This is what I purchased (I bought it from them as I was buying some other parts there as well):

http://www.vintagetrailersupply.com/But ... ts-419.htm

Rachel

PS: What I have had a harder time finding is 1" wide (1/8") tape; it fits my uses better than 3/4" but is much less common.

PPS: Some RV places sell "putty tape" which is not butyl, but when I have asked specifically, they have told me so I have avoided it. Perhaps some people are mistakenly buying non-butyl "putty tape" -- whether by their own mistake or because a "helpful" salesperson is not aware of the difference?
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

Rachael,

You took the words right out of my mouth. I saw Maine Sail's post right after I placed my order with MakariosRV. So, it was a D'oh moment when I saw Maine Sail's post. I had to scramble to tell them not to ship the order before I can resolve to understand the difference.

BTW, MakariosRV does have 1 inch butyl tape.

Ray
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Maine Sail »

Triton106 wrote:Rachael,

You took the words right out of my mouth. I saw Maine Sail's post right after I placed my order with MakariosRV. So, it was a D'oh moment when I saw Maine Sail's post. I had to scramble to tell them not to ship the order before I can resolve to understand the difference.

BTW, MakariosRV does have 1 inch butyl tape.

Ray
I should have been more clear. The big problem with RV tapes is that the quality is all over the map and I found after putting them side by side it is kind of like going to Vegas. This is what forced me into sourcing some quality stuff for the boating community.

Much of the RV stuff I found is now produced in China etc. and the quality and consistency is all over the place. Tracking back the manufacturers led me to some interesting finds. Some of the stuff you are buying the manufacturer is selling for $0.45 - $0.65 roll and uses "fillers" to get the price down as butyl ruber is not cheap.. Some is really wet/solventy, some is really soft with little density, some lacks the elasticity and some failed my cold weather testing. I ordered about 16-20 different rolls / brands of RV tape and about half was absolutely unacceptable and the other half could possibly work ok for a while but was still not as good as a quality glazing tape.

Some of it stretched less than an inch in sub 20 degree weather and some went 6 inches but none stretched as long or as far as the best performing stuff or stuck to parts as well. One roll I had, of "unknown" quality, got hard and brittle just sitting in my barn. I have a roll of good tape I bought in 1998 that I show customers who pick up at my house.. Still not much different than it was in 1998 other than sticking to the backing paper a little more. One roll I ordered of eBay was foam rubber not butyl this despite the picture and description on ebay describing it as butyl tape.

While you might get lucky I found that after buying over 40 different rolls/brands only about four or five were products I would be willing to use on a regular basis. There are only a few manufacturers of it left in North America and the rest is now offshore. Just like Polyurethane sealants such as 4200, 5200, Sikaflex etc., of which there are hundreds of "brands", people use the good ones in the marine environment because they work well.

As I mentioned at least buy a decent glazing tape or buy the stuff I sell and you'll be better off than an RV product. If you need less than two rolls to try it just email me. So far I have shipped to over 700 individuals and not had a single return or customer complaint and that was my goal..

Also butyl is only another tool in the shed for bedding and all the other products still have a place and I still use them depending upon the situation.

All that said I have a friend who bought some pretty poor quality butyl and its been three years and it is still not leaking, so the prep counts for a lot. I honestly would not have given this stuff three weeks. He's going to rebed it once it leaks so now we are curious to see how long it lasts..
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

Maine Sail,

This is interesting; could I ask a few questions?

What brand/manufacturer is it that you sell? (I'm going to guess Tremco.)

What brands/manufacturers did you find to make quality product?

How were you able to find out what "ingredients" were used in the various products?

Do you have 1" x 1/8"?

I guess I got lucky with the tape I got from VTS. Interestingly, there were a few ancient-looking rolls I found (bagged) on a dusty shelf in the stockroom at work, and they were nearly indistinguishable from the new rolls I bought. But then I suppose they could both be inferior, as although I have used them both I have not made extensive experiments. I will say they were quite stretchy and elastic, and were not gooey or solventy. Not quite as "bouncy" as Silly Putty™ (which I hate to even mention here, as it contains silicone!) but sort of a cross between that and clay, in a good way. Hmm, hard to describe, really.

Rachel
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

Thanks Maine Sail for your clarification. I spoke with the folks at MakariosRV and learned that the butyl tape they carry are sourced from Heng's. I then went on Heng's Industries website and here is what they say about their TRIMMABLE tape:
Trimmable Butyl
• Ideal for rubber roofs.
• Off-white, non-hardening elastic butyl based material.
• Provides excellent sealing adhesion to any type of metal, wood, concrete, glass, plastics, and porous surfaces.
• Can be used under moldings, around windows, doors, and vents.
• Can be trimmed easily with any stiff, pointed nonscratching object.
• Increases in adhesion with age after it is applied.
• Can be pressed and formed to obtain a water and air tight seal.
• Recommended temperatures are between -30F and 200F.
• Best results if applied at room temperature on dry materials.
• One year shelf life.
The folks at Makarios said that the tape is quite stretchable but does not know if it bleeds in water. I understand that TRIMMABLE tape is what we want and not NON-TRIMMABLE type. I plan to go ahead with this source for now and will report back the outcome of my experiemnt.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by boatsnh »

I used to spend hours trying to re-invent the wheel too....

Main sail has posted on a couple sites & has a great "how to" on the tape. I have used butyl tape over the years for bedding and have been pleased with the results - no leaks - I must have got lucky since the roll I have has worked well. No idea where I got it and not worth my time to find a new source when this one is gone - seems Maine Sail has saved us all a lot of "looking". Thanks MaineSail.....
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by ILikeRust »

I guess I lucked out too - I read all of Maine Sail's posts on bedding with butyl tape over at Sailnet, and also read his "how-to" articles at the Compass Marine site. Then I followed his recommendation to buy good-quality grey butyl tape that the RV repair places use - I found a big RV parts and repair place right here in Richmond and bought two 50-foot rolls of the stuff for about $8 each. It works wonderfully. I don't know the brand or whatever, but it certainly seems to be the right stuff, as it has stayed soft, pliable and sticky for about a year now and I have used it to bed a couple leaking fixed port lights and a small hatch and a couple other small bits of deck hardware. I still have some leaks to fix, but this definitely is the stuff!

And I agree on the many thanks to Maine Sail for sharing his experience and expertise - I have used several of the "how-to" articles on Compass Marine, including installing a new raw-water through-hull, lapping a prop to the shaft, replacing the prop shaft coupling, replacing a cutless bearing, and of course - bedding hardware with butyl tape. It's a great resource.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

boatsnh wrote:I used to spend hours trying to re-invent the wheel too....
I'm not sure if that was directed at me (since I asked some of the questions in this thread), but it so I think we are looking at this from a different perspective. I didn't ask my questions in the sense of reinventing a wheel, but more because I like to understand a product or process. I've been using butyl a fair bit lately, so that may have influenced me.

To expand on that: If I go to a lumberyard, or speak to a woodworker, and they recommend buying "some really great plywood I stock vs. that other bad plywood" I might very well buy it. Why not? I might also ask them who makes it and why they chose it. I might also ask them ("ulp!") what makes the other type bad, and how I can tell the difference (especially if some other plywood was already in my boat). I may buy from this lumberyard now, but what if it goes out of business? What if I need some in a hurry and want to buy locally? What if I just want to understand more about what is going into my boat? What makes the other product(s) bad, so that I can learn to be a more discerning buyer even if this person and their advice and product are not at my side?

Maine Sail said that his main interest was making sure that we don't get ripped off, and he comes across as someone who is happy to educate (he has written several how-to's on the web), so it sounded like he would be open to helping us understand the product (vs. the type of person who just wants to sell it and don't ask questions thankyouverymuch). Some of us bought butyl before he started selling it (and a supply can last a long time), so we are wondering what we have and if it's good or bad.

And even if I am buying from Maine Sail (which I very well might, next time I need some, as it sounds like he has quality product), I still might like to know who makes the product. I love McMaster-Carr, but I still often ask where they source a particular product (then go ahead and buy it). They are happy to let me know. In fact I just did that with a #00 Phillips screwdriver. I was happy to find out they carried Wiha, which was the exact one I wanted anyway (although I might have been open to a different brand).

I do hear you on the value of saving time, and at some point maybe evaluation turns into "nit-picking"; but when I read your sentence that I quoted I just felt like I wanted to give you my perspective. And of course different people have different tolerances, needs, and desires when it comes to learning about products.

Rachel
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by boatsnh »

Boy...Sensitive folks today. Just presenting my point of view on what I have done & ought to do in the future.....Perhaps.....Life is too short to "tell" folks what they ought to do. As a good friend of mine always says...."People are gonna do what people are gonna do"....

The point I was making is that MaineSail has presented a lot of information - more than I've seen anywhere else - and it's appreciated. 'Nuff said.

Oh....Hey Rachel....remember me?? A Free replacement Instrument panel shipped from NH??? We are NICE folks up here...
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

boatsnh wrote:Boy...Sensitive folks today. Just presenting my point of view on what I have done & ought to do in the future.....
I'm sorry if I seemed too sensitive. Your post motivated me to present my point of view as well.
boatsnh wrote:Oh....Hey Rachel....remember me?? A Free replacement Instrument panel shipped from NH??? We are NICE folks up here...
I do indeed remember you, and I was (and still am) very grateful for your offer and sending of the instrument panel. It was much appreciated, and with it I was able to make a complete, as-original panel -- thanks to you.

(I originally hail from a place that's even further north than NH, but I have found that there are wonderful folks everywhere - and many fine people here on the forum.)

Rachel
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

Hmmm, I feel like I am interupting here but I just want report back the outcome of my order...

As mentioned I ordered Heng's 5828 1/8"x1/2"x30' trimmable butyl tape from MakariosRV.com before I had a chance to read MaineSail's cautionary post here and the back and forth ensued. I called MakariosRV back and asked if their butyl tape was stretchable or bleeds when immersed in water. They said it is stretchable but not sure if it bleeds under water.

Here are two pictures of the actual tape and what happened when I tried to stretch it:

Before being stretched

Image

After I tried to stretch it - it breaks up easily

Image

As you can see it is not nearly as stretchable as MaineSail's tape. I tried to run it under water and the tape feels like it hardens (or stiffens) under water just like bubble gums, although I don't think it will bleed (only longterm testing can tell). In any case, it certainly does not meet my expectations.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

Ray, I'm really glad you did report back. This thread was started to talk about butyl tape and where to buy it, so you are completely on topic.

This next part edited because I found my second roll of butyl and so have more information:

What you have there sure doesn't look very "butyly." Good thing you tested it. Inspired by your experiment, I just grabbed two rolls of butyl I have and cut off 2" pieces to stretch them (just by grabbing both ends and pulling). The tape was at about 67º F.

The first piece was 1/2" x 1/8" and stretched to over 8" before it got too thin in one area (I think I could have stretched it further if I had stretched it slightly more "evenly" and carefully.) It had a very "elastic" feel to it. It's a light grey. There was no cracking or "breaking" to speak of; it just got really thin in one area and finally stretched to breaking.

The second piece, from a different roll, was 3/4" (closer to 5/8" really) x 1/8". It was darker grey. It behaved much closer to the one you just tried, and broke before it really stretched much at all. Completely different behavior. Of course then I went and checked and that's the roll I recently used to bed four windows in my camper (without noticing it was not as good or the same as the other roll) :groan: Guess I'll be re-doing those!

Now I have to figure out where I sourced each roll! I grabbed one ancient roll from a dusty shelf at work, and ordered another two from an online source. Right now I'm not sure which is which, but I can figure it out because I think there were more "dusty rolls" where I got the first one. I'll report back if/when I figure it out (you know I'm curious!).

It certainly does sound as though there is some serious variation in quality out there. Maybe we can collect a list of the good brands/types/sources. I would still like to find a source of 3/4" or 1" wide x 1/8" thick butyl (not sure yet if Maine Sail sells it). I'm pretty sure I have seen it by one manufacturer (Tremco maybe), but it was only available in case lots.

Rachel

PS: I just went back and read one of Maine Sail's posts in this thread. He mentioned that the link to his sales page was elsewhere in the thread, and so I located it and went to his site. His tape is 1/2" wide and 1/16" thick. (I think it can be "co-mingled" to make larger/thicker tape, but for the window flanges I have it would be nice to have all one piece.)
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

What I am about to ask might sound a bit desperate and may even be in my last ditch attempt to salvage a bad decision to order the product (or I could be bitter and say that I was misled but that would not do me any good). But are there any reasons to not use these less stretchy butyl tapes? In my case the tape will be used as sealant for the bronze framed dead lights (polycarbonate)? Does the sealant need to be stretch? The usual 3M, Lifeseal, Sika products are not stretchy either after they are cured. Neither is Dolfinite. The Heng's butyl tape while not stretchy is sticky after it is compressed between wood and metal surface. They claim to adhere to glass as well. Thought I would ask before I junk the product as returning it would not make sense since shipping cost as much as the product itself. Thanks for letting me indulge my fantasy.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Maine Sail »

Triton106 wrote:Hmmm, I feel like I am interupting here but I just want report back the outcome of my order...

As mentioned I ordered Heng's 5828 1/8"x1/2"x30' trimmable butyl tape from MakariosRV.com before I had a chance to read MaineSail's cautionary post here and the back and forth ensued. I called MakariosRV back and asked if their butyl tape was stretchable or bleeds when immersed in water. They said it is stretchable but not sure if it bleeds under water.

Here are two pictures of the actual tape and what happened when I tried to stretch it:

Before being stretched



After I tried to stretch it - it breaks up easily



As you can see it is not nearly as stretchable as MaineSail's tape. I tried to run it under water and the tape feels like it hardens (or stiffens) under water just like bubble gums, although I don't think it will bleed (only longterm testing can tell). In any case, it certainly does not meet my expectations.

Ray,

This is how Bed-It Tape performs & sticks...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Hope this helps...
-Maine Sail

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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Maine Sail »

Rachel wrote:Maine Sail,

This is interesting; could I ask a few questions?
Sure..
Rachel wrote:What brand/manufacturer is it that you sell? (I'm going to guess Tremco.)
Tremco's current tapes are denser than the stuff that builders used to use and tougher to compress under a fitting. Through many months and hundreds of phone calls I managed to track down a company that still made a product with similar qualities only not in what I needed. I do suspect they may extrude for Tremco but even they won't admit that, just like Tremco would not tell me who they were.. Considering all the work I put into this my manufacturer is confidential, for obvious reasons. My tape is sold to support my free "how to" web site after my wife said NO MORE personal money on that site.. So far I am still in the red.(ouch) The tape is good quality and folks can choose to buy it or not. I know some will always opt for price and that is to be expected.
Rachel wrote:What brands/manufacturers did you find to make quality product?
Tremco was good & tends to be very consistent but I found it quite dense and under large items could distort the fittings or deck if not installed patiently and correctly. The CR Laurence tape, can't remember who extrudes it, somewhat decent but better than most any of the RV tapes I tested. Problem with many of the glazing grade products is that the distributors only want to sell them in case lot quantities...
Rachel wrote:
How were you able to find out what "ingredients" were used in the various products?
I was in sales for over 24 years and learned how to ask questions that get the results I want. (wink) On a few occasions I simply pretended to be a PA from a large window manufacturer and wanted a product that "cost less" than our current manufacturer. Questions like; "How can we lower the cost and get similar performance?" Yada, yada yada... I can't even remember all the "fillers" mentioned but a virgin butyl tape that is very high in butyl content gets expensive and fillers reduce cost and also quality. No one was willing to give up actual filler brand names or percentages as that is all proprietary. hell, I am not even privileged to know what is in my tape, these extruders are very secretive. I do know it is a very high grade butyl. Better tapes have less "other ingredients" and more butyl and that is about how simple it is. High butyl content tapes cost more to manufacture than tapes with high filler content...
Rachel wrote:Do you have 1" x 1/8"?
No. I chose to stick with 1/2 X 1/16" thick as that is what I have found to be the most versatile size. 1/8" is far to thick for flat bottomed fittings and just right for ports that have a small lip. To accomodate a lip like on an extrided aluminum port simply doubling up the 1/16" works great.

To get other sizes would have been cost prohibitive and driven the price higher than it already is. I know my tape is not inexpensive but when you compare the shelf life to 4200, 5200 etc. the price gets quite reasonable. It does not mean that in the future I won't add other sizes but as of now there has been no clear winner in my excel spread sheet of "size requests". What my spread sheet tells me is that everyone wants a different size. Some folks have even asked for 8" wide....! No matter what I had it still would probably never be the "right" size. I have used this size many times on big surface area jobs and it works fine layered or placed side by side. It all becomes one big mass once you begin to tighten anyway..
Rachel wrote:I guess I got lucky with the tape I got from VTS. Interestingly, there were a few ancient-looking rolls I found (bagged) on a dusty shelf in the stockroom at work, and they were nearly indistinguishable from the new rolls I bought. But then I suppose they could both be inferior, as although I have used them both I have not made extensive experiments. I will say they were quite stretchy and elastic, and were not gooey or solventy. Not quite as "bouncy" as Silly Putty™ (which I hate to even mention here, as it contains silicone!) but sort of a cross between that and clay, in a good way. Hmm, hard to describe, really.

Rachel
You can get lucky, as you did, but you can also get burned, as I found out. The tape I sell is clearly more expensive, though you do get 50' vs. the 30' rolls often sold for RV's but it is a known quality. I know the tape on our 33 year old CS is still preventing leaks, over 80% of the boat is un-rebedded, and this is the closest product I could find that that.

Sorry for the late reply I did not see your post.

Funny story. A local yard saw my article and began selling a "butyl tape" they had some complaints and they then contacted me. We then compared them side by side, a little show and tell session, and they now order Bed-It tape when they need it. I don't have enough room for "wholesale pricing" so they pay the same price you guys do and I suspect they mark it up some on top of that. I do deliver it to them for free as a nice gesture.. (wink)...
-Maine Sail

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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Rachel »

Hi Maine Sail,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I understand where you are coming from on your calls to various manufacturers, etc.

Just so you know, I have zero problems with the price of your butyl. It may be "three times as much" as some you can find, but really, at $15 for 50' that is completely trivial to me. Getting a good, consistent product is much more important to me. I guess I asked about the details for two reasons: 1) ex-parts dept. manager and old habits die hard; and 2) I always feel more secure if I know the details behind "one good product" just in case that seller goes away or I'm not able to buy from that person for some reason (out of country, need it now, or whatever). However neither of those things stop me from buying from you going forward. On the contrary, you sound picky (I mean "discriminating") like I am, and I appreciate the time and energy you have put into it.

Just because I'm the curious sort, I'm itching to find out if it was the new or the "old dusty" butyl I had that was the bad stuff. I think there are a few more "old dusty" (but plastic bagged) rolls where I got the one, so digging one of those out should tell me (as the backing paper is different on each of the rolls I tested last night).

Regardless, since I can't duplicate the "dusty old roll" (no idea where it came from originally), and since I don't know who the supplier for VTS is if that does turn out to be the better one (I might ask them for kicks though if it is the good roll, but I have a hunch it is not), I believe I'll be ordering some from you next time :)

Thanks again for coming back to the thread.

Rachel

PS: Ray, I can't answer your question for sure about how much elasticity and elongation is needed for your project, but if it were me I would still go for the "good" butyl regardless of the "sunk cost" of the stuff you already have. Might as well stack the deck in your favor, is my thought.
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

Maine Sail,

I placed an order today for 3 rolls of butyl tapes. For some reason PayPal did not allow me a chance to edit the shipping address before taking the order (you may want to look into it with PayPal). So, I am sending you a PM with the correct shipping address. I also send you an email to HELP@pbase.com with the same information.

Thanks very much for the HOW-TO tutorials. I found the alternator discussion very helpful in my recent bout of problem with my Atomic 4 electrical system.

Ray
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Re: Butyl tape source

Post by Triton106 »

I received my order from Maine Sail today for three rolls of Bed-it Tape. I could not wait to see the difference between that and the Heng Industries butyl tape I ordered from MakariosRV.com. I cut a 2 inch piece from one of the rolls and stretched it horizontally as far as I could and it clearly is far more stretchy than the Heng's tape. Here is a picture. I also noticed that the texture of the tape is a lot finer than the other tape. It's well worth the price difference. The order arrived very quickly and just in time for my port installation this weekend. Thanks Maine Sail!

Image
Ray D. Chang
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