Hull Insulation

David · Post by **David** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:08 pm

I am curious to know what some of the board's solutions are for insulation to prevent condensation and increase heat retention in the winter / reduce interior heat in the summer. I am planning to use a combination of insulative paint and closed cell foam. I know Robert the Gray used the foil sided Reflectix type insulation in his Triton.

Thanks in advance,

David

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:06 pm

Armacell closed cell foam (1 inch) and Reflectix.

I can already feel a big difference now that most of my cabin space is insulated.

mitiempo · Post by **mitiempo** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:58 am

ethafoam works well - closed cell foam in thicknesses from 1/4" to several inches. flexible and easy to work with - also good to use under bladder tanks etc.
http://www.carrmclean.ca/CategoryGroupB ... oupNo=2031
available at most industrial plastic shops and Carr Mclean

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:19 am

Anything you put in the boat you should search the MSDS on it to get some idea as to how it may behave in a fire or while installing it.

Here is ethafoam:

http://www.qualityfoam.com/docs/ethafoam-220-msds.pdf

Doesn't look too bad.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:20 am

I doubt you get much improvement in 'R' value with paint. I second the ethafoam, however, I suggest leaving space for drainage and ventilation behind it. Especially true for under a bladder; I used Enkadrain.

A wood ceiling would be insulative and pretty, too.

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:23 pm

I am at the point where I will need to insulate or not. All I have right now is the ceramic coating for the paint but that is as far as I have gone. How about installation details. How do you attach the stuff? Put down the Reflectix with contact cement, epoxy, anything? Then the foam. How do you attach that to the Reflectix so it lays contoured against the hull? And then the cover. 1708? How many layers so a can of flying soup doesn't cause damage? How wide of a section of foam do you attach to be covered with the 1708? I would think you would want to keep the foam in small strips (24" wide etc.) to be able to attach the cloth to the hull every few feet and keep it down? Do you insulate both above and below the water line?

Needless to see above I have many questions. Does anyone have a blog or more infomation of the process that they can point me to so I have a better feel of how to do this? This looks to be a HUGE job with lots of epoxy and cloth and I just don't know what I'm going to do yet.

I have a BCC friend that lives aboard here in Olympia who's only regret in building their boat was not insulating. Of course they live aboard too. But on the other hand, I learned to sail on a boat W/O insulation with bare painted fiberglass and it wasn't all that bad, even after a cold day, crew of 8 and the propane heater at full blast.

Thanks all!

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:10 pm

Those are all good questions. My plan is to protect the foam with an ash or basswood ceiling. I am using an insulative paint first, then 1/2" of some kind of closed cell foam, then a layer of reflective sheeting like Reflextix. I don't plan to apply foam below the level of the cabin sole.

For bladder tanks, I line the area with rubber shower pan liner from Home Depot. It works very well.

David

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:15 pm

Armacell APArmaflex is specifically formulated for low toxicity when burned. and meets CG regulations to that effect. Its used in big ship construction and US Navy vessels and meets all those safety requirements.

A thorough insulation job is not quick and I wonder sometimes why I started. It will be worth it but had I known what I was getting in to I might have skipped it. Ferenc Mate wrote that he did it over a weekend so I thought I would too. I will forever hold a grudge against that guy :-)

The 1 inch closed cell foam is glued to the hull with contact cement. Armacell has their own label but it looks an awful lot like Dow 1300L or any other yellow contact cement.

To protect the insulation and provide a stiff inner liner for the storage bins, I have 1/4 inch plywood covering the insulation. That means lots of little bits glued to the hull or bulkheads for the plywood panels to attach to.

Since the plywood is relatively straight, and the hull is relatively curved, there is some gap in there and I just lay the reflectix in the gap and pin it between the foam and the plywood. Its not high tech but it works. The reflectix (for me) is just an afterthought anyway. It is cheap and I had in on hand already and figured it couldn't hurt.

I have pictures but I can't get to them until the weekend. I really should put it on my website too so maybe that will be this weekend's web project.

Command_1 · Post by **Command_1** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:45 pm

Anything you put in the boat you should search the MSDS on it to get some idea as to how it may behave in a fire or while installing it.

sounds like a good firefighter :)

Command_1 · Post by **Command_1** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:10 pm

With these types of foam you have to be sure that if a small fire starts that you have the means to get to the seat of the fire. Anything more than a smoldering fire!!!, you have biger problems with the fiber glass.
The best remedy is prevention, prevention, prevention!
After all we couch potatoes use foam filled couches every day.
Today with all of the information available to the public you should have an MSDS for everything that might be a potential problem, to be informed. If not for you, at least consider your loved ones that might be exposed.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:34 pm

Basically, everything on a fiberglass boat burns well and is highly toxic while on fire.

Best course of action is to swim.

Ric in Richmond · Post by **Ric in Richmond** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:18 am

Command_1 wrote:Anything you put in the boat you should search the MSDS on it to get some idea as to how it may behave in a fire or while installing it.

sounds like a good firefighter :)

Nah..just a paranoid insurance agent...

Would hate to put something in there that gives off some wicked gas at the slightest provocation!!

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:32 am

Does anyone have a blog or more infomation of the process that they can point me to so I have a better feel of how to do this? This looks to be a HUGE job with lots of epoxy and cloth and I just don't know what I'm going to do yet.

I put a first draft up last night. I already see the need to go back and tweak it but it gives a pretty good idea of what I have been up to. I need to go back and add some info on why I insulated below the waterline too. Its a debated issue among cold water sailors I know.

Triton 680 insulation project page

No epoxy and cloth, just contact cement. The tricky part is figuring out what goes over the insulation and finding a way to install it. That, and making sure that everything that attaches to the hull is attached to the hull before you glue down the insulation. Its like a puzzle and everything has to fit together at about the same time.

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:34 pm

Thanks Britton for posting.

I'll have to read it later though after running up to Port Townsend for more boat parts this weekend.

I understand hiding the insulation behind wood but I don't plan on doing much wood other than edge trim inside. Areas like behind the settee backs for example won't have anything thing back there except hull, hence my question for protecting the insulation with epoxy and cloth in those types of areas.

Keep the pictures coming.

Thanks again, as always

Capn_Tom · Post by **Capn_Tom** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:57 pm

You don't need to protect a flexible closed cell foam like ethafoam or volara. it won't crush or crumble. It can get scratched. If this concerns you you can cover it with vinyl using a spray adhesive.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:37 pm

You don't need to protect a flexible closed cell foam like ethafoam or volara. it won't crush or crumble.

Protect is probably a bad word.

I am thinking of my tool bag in the storage locker pressing into the foam and squishing it flat. Or the constant movement of a stray can of peas going back and forth inside the locker. That kind of protection.

I haven't done a test with this particular foam but I have some supports on my snow cover sitting on pipe insulation around the toerail and that foam is squished flat with no hope of ever springing back up. I don't want that to happen either.

Areas like behind the settee backs for example won't have anything thing back there except hull.

Wow. I think you are the first person I have ever heard of that is happy with the storage space on their boat and doesn't need more :-)

jverl · Post by **jverl** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:55 pm

Britton,
If you don't mind me asking, how much is a roll of Armaflex worth?

John

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:21 pm

It was around $350 a roll. I can't remember what the 1 yard squares cost. That's for the 1 inch thick that I bought. It comes in everything from 1/4 inch to 2 and a half inch. The contact cement is about $70 a gallon. One gallon would have been plenty but it sat with the lid not quite sealed and it went hard and I had to buy another gallon.

Its an industrial product and not available at the local hardware store. The best bet is to call technical support and they can direct you to the regional distributor.

David · Post by **David** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:24 pm

Here's a good source for foam. I am going to use the 1/2" minicel foam for hull insulation. The site also has a variety of foam for seating and bunks.

http://www.closedcellfoams.com/minicel.html

David

mitiempo · Post by **mitiempo** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:32 pm

Capn_Tom is right - ethafoam is very durable. I'm using it under a bladder tank and I used two wedges of 2" ethafoam to keep a plastic water tank in place under the v-berth. Just cut to fit and put glue on the side that's against the hull and jam it in. I've used it before for insulation and it makes a good liner for lower lockers as well. The 1/2" I just purchased worked out to 1.37 a sq. ft. (but that's in .80 Canadian dollars)

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:51 pm

Ok so at the risk of sounding totally crazy, I'll give you an idea of what I was thinking about doing for insulation...

So from what I’m reading my plan is TOTALLY different and probably OVERKILL. I was going to add ½” sheet foam as my insulation covered in 1708.

My plan was to finish all of the bulkheads and then cut foam to fit the area with about 1” between the foam and the bulkhead. I’ll round the sharp corners of the foam, kerf to allow better forming to the hull, glue down with contact cement and then bond the whole thing with cloth to the hull over the foam. This would allow me to leave cut out areas of the foam for things such as the chain plates, whisker stays etc. Crazy or what? I guess this is why I'm not very interested in insulating. I couldn't possibly imagine how many gallons of epoxy this job would take. I'm essentially adding an additional core material.

David · Post by **David** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:21 pm

Bryon,

So basically this is the Ferenc Mate solution on Warm Rain. It's a lot of work and lots of epoxy.

Are you doing this more for strength or simply to protect the foam? My only concern with glassing over the foam is that should you suffer some sort of hole in the boat, or crack from a collision, the glassed coverings could make it more difficult to locate the leak and plug it (not a pleasant thought but one I measure against).

David

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:24 pm

AGREED! Not for strength just to protect the insulation. One of the many reasons for not wanting to do this. I do not intend on adding any wood to cover anywhere.

I'm in the process of laminating some 1708 in multiple layers to see how thick it is with 1 layer, 2 layers,... etc. I've also made a test panel to test how strong 1 layer of 1708 is over the foam. This will tell me if I need more than 1 layer. I'm not liking the thought of this idea much.

David · Post by **David** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:29 pm

My plan is to use 3/8" wood ceilings--basswood inside lockers and cabinets where the wood doesn't show, and ash where it does show--screwed to 1/2" furring strips, with 1/2" of foam abutting the edges of the strips. Easy enough to disassemble or rip out if the need arises but shippy looking as well, and the basswood weighs next to nothing.

Plastic Classic Forum

Hull Insulation

Hull Insulation

MSDS'sssss

MSDS'ssssss

Re: MSDS'sssss