www.stainless-steel-direct.com

preserved_killick · Post by **preserved_killick** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:03 pm

I've got bronze turnbuckle bodies with stainless legs, so I'm looking for a good source to buy stainless bodies from.

I found this site: http://www.stainless-steel-direct.com that has very cheap prices. Chinese, of course. But isn't it all now? They appear to be this company: http://www.vinox.tw/newEbiz1/EbizPortal ... index.html

I've noticed that this product:
http://www.stainless-steel-direct.com/s ... ductID=131

Looks just like this one by Suncor:http://www.suncorstainless.com/turnbuckle/S0106-BD.jpg

And this one:
http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2. ... t=S0106-BD

Might as well buy from the source.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:58 am

Are you trying to replace your bronze turnbuckles with all stainless steel? If so, my suggestion is not to do so. Mosy high quality turnbuckles have bronze bodies (chromed or not) and SS threaded portions. This prevents the galling that WILL happen with stainless on stainless.

I have mis-interpreted what your goal is, please ignore the above!

preserved_killick · Post by **preserved_killick** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:13 am

Ryan,

Really? I was thinking I would avoid galvanic corrosion by replacing the bronze with stainless. I just figured I would put a drop of anti seize on the threads.

I'm certainly going to do more research then before I shell out the cash to replace 1/2 inch turnbuckles! Thanks..

-jeff

David · Post by **David** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:47 pm

I wouldn't be too excited about Chinese stainless. If you are looking for all stainless 316L turnbuckles, go with Hasselfors from Selden--Danish stainless considered some of the finest available. For stainless/bronze turnbuckes I would go with Hayn, forged in USA:
http://www.hayn.com/marine/rigging/index.html
and available via Defender.

Idon84 · Post by **Idon84** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:25 am

AYE!! Maid in China.... Shudder!

Post by **Tim** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:02 am

If your original bronze turnbuckles are in good shape, by all means continue to use them. The hefty old bronze bodies tend to have long lives, unless they've been damaged in an accident.

preserved_killick · Post by **preserved_killick** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 am

Thanks Tim, I'll heed your advice on this.

jeff

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:30 pm

I agree with the recommendation to keep the bronze turnbuckle bodies if they're in good shape. If it were me, and they did need to be replaced, I'd still go with bronze/chromed bronze. We had stainless/stainless (gall central) on the W-32 and purposely replaced them with chromed bronze (not that we needed the chromed part, but it was what was available).

David · Post by **David** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:30 pm

Just to clear up a point of reference about stainless turnbuckles. They do not all "gall" as has been said, anymore than all stainless steel bolts gall by being fastened with stainless nuts (in fact, the same arrangement as a turnbuckle). High quality stainless steel turnbuckles with rolled threads are just as long lasting, long wearing and non-galling as stainless/bronze turnbuckles.

Another aspect of the care and feeding of turnbuckles is the proper lube--whether the bodies are bronze or stainless steel. I have had the same Hasselfors turnbuckles on my boat for 20-plus years. I magnifluxed them at this refit and found no defects. They adjust easily when needed, and I lube them with Lanocote.

That being said, I would not trust my rig to Chinese turnbuckles or "no-brand" turnbuckles: stainless, bronze or a combination.

bcooke · Post by **bcooke** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:02 pm

Oh goody, a chance to give my stainless lecture...

Last year I was doing a lot of work with stainless fasteners and dealing with a lot of galling issues. This is what I learned about stainless.

Stainless steel is a really poor conductor of heat. Galling occurs when there is a point of friction. The friction develops heat and since the heat can't conduct and dissipate into the rest of the material, all the heat energy stays right at the source. That little point of contact absorbs all the heat and it gets really really hot. So hot in fact that the metal gets soft and deforms (galls). Once the stainless starts to deform the friction increases. When the friction increases, the heat increases, and the material deforms more. That is why by the time you think the part might be galling it is probably too late to do anything about it.

The trick with stainless is to prevent any points of friction to begin with. Quality parts that have good cleanly cut threads helps. Making sure the threads are perfectly clean helps. Anti-seize helps. Anything to reduce friction helps.

They do not all "gall" as has been said, anymore than all stainless steel bolts gall by being fastened with stainless nuts

Stainless nuts and bolts will gall. Trust me. I have had to drill out lots of galled stainless hardware. All it takes is a bad thread or a bit of grit in the threads to get it started.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:12 pm

Also, one note to add to what I said earlier: The stainless turnbuckles we replaced were "closed body" turnbuckles.

The combination of them being nearly 30 years old, stainless, and (particularly with stainless) closed-body is what led us to replace them. And since we were replacing them, (chromed) bronze, open body-turnbuckles were what we settled on.

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:15 am

Sta-lok actually makes stainless turnbuckles with bronze inserts to avoid galling. I've never seen them in person, but its an interesting idea...

http://www.stalok.com/online_shop_items ... ec_id=1575

David · Post by **David** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:46 am

bcooke wrote:Oh goody, a chance to give my stainless lecture...

Last year I was doing a lot of work with stainless fasteners and dealing with a lot of galling issues. This is what I learned about stainless.

Stainless steel is a really poor conductor of heat. Galling occurs when there is a point of friction. The friction develops heat and since the heat can't conduct and dissipate into the rest of the material, all the heat energy stays right at the source. That little point of contact absorbs all the heat and it gets really really hot. So hot in fact that the metal gets soft and deforms (galls). Once the stainless starts to deform the friction increases. When the friction increases, the heat increases, and the material deforms more. That is why by the time you think the part might be galling it is probably too late to do anything about it.

The trick with stainless is to prevent any points of friction to begin with. Quality parts that have good cleanly cut threads helps. Making sure the threads are perfectly clean helps. Anti-seize helps. Anything to reduce friction helps.

They do not all "gall" as has been said, anymore than all stainless steel bolts gall by being fastened with stainless nuts
Stainless nuts and bolts will gall. Trust me. I have had to drill out lots of galled stainless hardware. All it takes is a bad thread or a bit of grit in the threads to get it started.

The point is that all stainless fasteners do not gall or cold weld all the time. One simply cannot make a blanket statement that all stainless steel turnbuckles gall therefore they are no good, any more than one can make that statement about fastening with stainless bolts and nuts. If that were true, we would all be using only bronze machine screws and bronze nuts for everything fastener (or at least using bronze nuts on stainless bolts to continue the analogy). Much of the issue with cold welding comes from how the threads are cut. I have felt the threads of some stainless machine screws and bolts and rejected them immediately because the threads were not at all smooth, they almost felt fuzzy on the edges. That will exasserbate cold welding. (I have had those "fuzzy threaded" fasteners come very close to cold welding when mounted in threaded epoxy.) The same applies to stainless turnbuckles. High quality stainless turnbuckles such as the Hasselfors have rolled threads and do not cold weld. Also, as I said, the right lubricant--Lanocote is great--will prevent stainless from cold welding (given properly cut threads).

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:37 am

David wrote:... If that were true, we would all be using only bronze machine screws and bronze nuts for everything fastener...

You're describing Rachel's Dream World there ;)

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:50 am

First of all, let me apologize for the original "blanket statement" that I made that SS turnbuckles WILL gall. I was incorrect. I agree that with properly cut, rolled threads that are kept clean and lubricated, SS turnbuckles will give you trouble free use. My comment was based on the average sailboat with turnbuckles that have not-so-perfect threads, that have salt and grime buildup on the threads, and lubricant (if it was ever used at all) that has long since dried up. These turnbuckles are, at the very least, likely to give you problems.
As a side note, I have replaced many a rusted keel nut that made of mild steel and threaded onto a SS keel stud. A mismatch that was done, according to the manufactuer, to prevent galling. I replaced those nuts with SS nuts (on SS studs), but used Lanocote to lubricate the threads and have never had a problem, nor do I anticipate one.
Again, my apologies for making a general statement that condemned the use of a material in its entirety and alienated those with turnbuckles made of said material.

That being said, what are the advantages of stainless steel in turnbuckles? It seems that everyone agrees you certainly need to be a bit more picky when you choose a SS turnbuckle to insure you get quality cut threads. The SS would give slightly more strength (approx 5-6% tensile from a quick search of the web). What else?

As was said before, if the original bronze turnbuckles are in good shape, there is no reason to not use them. And galling between SS and bronze won't be an issue even without perfect threading.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:39 am

The old gold standard, I hear, was chromed bronze barrels and stainless threaded and swedged terminals. Dad was concerned about the potential for corrosion in 1972 on his Morgan 27 and was assured then that that was the way to go. Those turnbuckles remained in service until about 2000 and looked just fine. That being said, one of the correspondents on the Morgan List reported that his bronze barrels had corroded such that the threads came out with the terminals.

I replaced them when re-rigging with Hayn 316 stainless. Our NE 38 has, perhaps original, all bronze.

As ever, adequate inspection, lubrication and other care is the way to go.

The trashing of this country's supply lines with Red Chinese imitations is a real worry from every standpoint. There's no quality control, despite the sellers assurances, in the alloys or the quality of manufacture. Makes me wonder about my new seacocks and throughhulls.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:58 pm

Quetzalsailor wrote:There's no quality control, despite the sellers assurances, in the alloys or the quality of manufacture. Makes me wonder about my new seacocks and throughhulls.

Luckily in that case there are still several to choose from that are made in the US (Conbraco/Apollo, Perko, Groco's top line, and Spartan spring to mind). Or do you mean that even the base metal used in those is suspect?

Ceasar Choppy · Post by **Ceasar Choppy** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:46 am

Ryan wrote: That being said, what are the advantages of stainless steel in turnbuckles?

Stainless turnbuckles will be easier to keep shiny. Once the chrome starts to go on a bronze turnbuckle, you have to re-chrome or replace to keep it shiny. After all, most sailors are like crows in that they instinctively attracted to shiny objects.

Quetzalsailor · Post by **Quetzalsailor** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:17 am

I may be at the risk of being proven wrong again, but I think that most of the names Rachel mentioned are selling Red Chinese-made stuff. The seacocks may well have the UL listing for marine use but that's just a piece of plastic labeling. Even the fittings seller that I found online and calling themselves a manufacturer, were selling Chinese bronze pipe fittings. ("China" cast into the side of the fitting is a give-away)

I'm quite pleased with all the nearly 40 year old Perkins Brass Company (Perko) components on Q. They may be a little dowdy or scratched but they're nearly all perfect and worthy of replating (things like threaded access covers on deck). All my alcohol stove components are Perko as well. However, I trashed a plated zinc holding tank vent because it was plugged with corrosion, and I replaced it with an expensive chromed bronze Perko vent. It has been four seasons and the chrome is off and the bronze is deeply pitted. At least, it's usually above the waterline!

I had the sad misfortune to have the long wood handled boathook wash off the deck a couple weeks ago (it had been carried there for the whole time we had the boat, and presumably longer since it wouldn't go into the lazarette). The business end was cast aluminum. I was 'forced' to buy the WoodenBoat bronze 'kit', but what I really wanted was one cast in 316 Stainless.

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:16 am

Quetzalsailor wrote:I may be at the risk of being proven wrong again, but I think that most of the names Rachel mentioned are selling Red Chinese-made stuff.

I researched this prior to buying new seacocks and through hulls for my boat last year. At that time, all of the brands I mentioned were being made in the US. Some manufacturers, such as Groco, have a range of products, of which some are made here and some overseas. That's why I mentioned the top-of-the-line seacocks in Groco's case; their other models are made overseas (and have brass wetted components, which is a no-no in my book).

Of course I have no way to prove that they are made in the US - I am going on word from the manufacturers, who stated that they were made in the US.

Rachel